Plinia hybrids, variations and mutations

[FlyingFoxFruits]

this subject is exciting to me!

apparently Plinias are easily hybridized...and crosses occur casually with some frequency in Brazil....I never realized how easy it was!

after planting thousands of seeds over the course of the last 5 yrs or so, I've selected some interesting new plants....based upon growth habit, foliage, and other physical features (like pubescence).

all of the plants I've selected appear to have a common thread, with the Red jaboticaba being the parent.  Some appear to be mutations or variations of the Red jaboticaba (which is a hybrid), and some appear to be authentic hybrids (like M. trunciflora x M. caulifora hybrid [red jabo])

as the trees grow larger this year, I will update the thread with some pictures of the foliage and growth habits of these seedlings!

I'm hoping they are precocious....like the Red jaboticaba....so I don't have to wait over 7yrs to see some fruits!

[Mike T]

I know there are M.coronata x sabara as I had seeds that infortunately didn't germinate.M.coronata x scarlet would be a good one to try or M.tenella x white,spirito santensis or coronata would be interesting.Vexator x red hybrid is one I thought about as I have them planted next to each other.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

I know there are M.coronata x sabara as I had seeds that infortunately didn't germinate.M.coronata x scarlet would be a good one to try or M.tenella x white,spirito santensis or coronata would be interesting.Vexator x red hybrid is one I thought about as I have them planted next to each other.

I don't think some of those crosses will work...M tenella and M vexator probably won't be capable of hybridizing with coronata, cauliflora, aureana, and othe similar species.

I'm quite certain you can't hybridize m jaboticaba with plinia edulis, or with m glazioviana...they are too different.

[gunnar429]

please look into your crystal ball and let us know what the winners will be.  I only have so many spots in the yard   Sounds awesome!

[fruithunter]

Adam, I'm also excited about this subject. Looking forward to your photos.

[Jack, Nipomo]

Long-term project Adam, but exciting.  Then there are always those hybrids that produce infertile seeds!  Please keep us informed.

[huertasurbanas]

Hi, I love this subject too and will be waiting for the photos and other infos, thanks.

The only hybrid I have is cauliflora x aureana -red-, but in my small and young collection I have m. jaboticaba, m. spirito santensis, m. vexator and m. cauliflora

[FlyingFoxFruits]

I know there are M.coronata x sabara as I had seeds that infortunately didn't germinate.M.coronata x scarlet would be a good one to try or M.tenella x white,spirito santensis or coronata would be interesting.Vexator x red hybrid is one I thought about as I have them planted next to each other.

this must be the hybrid that Pine Island sells as Sabara x (or Sabara 5)

it looks like a perfect cross between sabara and coronata.

[ScottR]

Very interesting project you've got going Adam, I wish you positive hybridizing!

[gunnar429]

I know there are M.coronata x sabara as I had seeds that infortunately didn't germinate.M.coronata x scarlet would be a good one to try or M.tenella x white,spirito santensis or coronata would be interesting.Vexator x red hybrid is one I thought about as I have them planted next to each other.

this must be the hybrid that Pine Island sells as Sabara x (or Sabara 5)

it looks like a perfect cross between sabara and coronata.

So the sabara I got from PIN isn't truly a sabara?  I was going to get some more to try grafting some, but now I know better.  Any place that you know of that sells small sabaras to use for rootstock?  Thanks for the info

[FlyingFoxFruits]

if you got the plant labeled as "Sabara 5", it should be a hybrid.

if you got the regular old plant they sell mislabeled as M. cauliflora (they've been selling for decades..everyone sells these)...then u have regular old M. jaboticaba "Sabara"

I have plenty of rootstocks for sale....size ranges from 4 inch pot, about one year old, 3/16-1/4 inch thick caliper (easiest size to graft in my opinion)...price depends on how many you purchase...it can range from $5-8 each.

Also have larger rootstocks, one gallon, with calipers of about 1/2 inch (more or less)...these are harder to graft, but will drastically increase the precocity of your tree, by allowing you to affix a scion of larger size, that is a mature fruiting branch....those cost closer to $12-15 each depending on how many you take.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

today I took some pictures with my phone, of some of the jaboticabas that I have set aside, as being suspects....of either hybridization, or mutation....lol or improper identification.

keep in mind these are all seedlings from my red jaboticaba trees (with the exception of the one I believe is a hybrid of Red jabo and trunciflora...I think that one was a trunciflora seed!)

this one has large leaves...looks much more like M. aureana!


this picture is not the best, but the foliage of this seedling is very strange...quite stiff when compared to the common Red jabo, and much more heart shaped....I will get some better pictures as the tree grows.


This one I'm convinced is a hybrid of the Red jabo and trunciflora....and yes we had bearing trees of both varieties in close proximity, and I planted seeds from those trees...(I think the mother would have been trunciflora)


this one is more of a guess..but really looks like a mix between Grimal and Red jabo...the leaves are more lanceolate, and darker green...and much stiffer than the common red jaboticaba....if it's not a hybrid, then it is definitely a mutation of the Red jabo in my opinion.  Hoping to find out soon (less than 5 yrs?!?  )

[fruithunter]

Nice pictures Adam. Judging from your photos, it seems to be highly possible to get new varieties by putting different jaboticaba varieties together. This make me want to hand pollinate my red jaboticaba with cambuca or sour jaboticaba flowers.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Nice pictures Adam. Judging from your photos, it seems to be highly possible to get new varieties by putting different jaboticaba varieties together. This make me want to hand pollinate my red jaboticaba with cambuca or sour jaboticaba flowers.

Thanks Rock!

I agree it would be great to intentionally create some new hybrids, rather than relying on chance mutations and crosses.

Not to dissapoint you, but I don't think P. edulis will hybridize with the more common Myrciarias...but the sour type M. oblongata, is a good candidate to cross with M. jaboticaba, or M. cauliflora...or M. coronata, M. aureana, or similar species.

In my opinion, species that won't easily hybridize with the common myrciarias (that resemble M. jaboticaba), include, P. rivularis, M. vexator, M. glazioviana, P. edulis, M. tenella, M. floribunda, M. delicatula, and so on...

[fruithunter]

Nice pictures Adam. Judging from your photos, it seems to be highly possible to get new varieties by putting different jaboticaba varieties together. This make me want to hand pollinate my red jaboticaba with cambuca or sour jaboticaba flowers.

Thanks Rock!

I agree it would be great to intentionally create some new hybrids, rather than relying on chance mutations and crosses.

Not to dissapoint you, but I don't think P. edulis will hybridize with the more common Myrciarias...but the sour type M. oblongata, is a good candidate to cross with M. jaboticaba, or M. cauliflora...or M. coronata, M. aureana, or similar species.

In my opinion, species that won't easily hybridize with the common myrciarias (that resemble M. jaboticaba), include, P. rivularis, M. vexator, M. glazioviana, P. edulis, M. tenella, M. floribunda, M. delicatula, and so on...

Adam, that's alright. At least, there is sour jaboticaba to hybridize. I think red jaboticaba as mother and sour jaboticaba as father will be a good idea.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Rock,

i'm just curious if you can tell me about the new growth of the Sour jaboticaba....I believe I might have one...

the new growth on my plant is quite fuzzy...but when the leaves mature they are pretty much hairless.

Would you say that yours is the same?

[fruithunter]

Rock,

i'm just curious if you can tell me about the new growth of the Sour jaboticaba....I believe I might have one...

the new growth on my plant is quite fuzzy...but when the leaves mature they are pretty much hairless.

Would you say that yours is the same?

Adam,
Will take a photo of new growth soon.
Here are my old photos. The fruit shape look different from sabara's.  it tastes very sour even if the fruit color turns black but if ripe enough the fruit can also be quite sweet.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Thanks Rock,

the main feature I notice about my tree is that the growth habit is very low and the canopy spreads out laterally.

also, the growth rate is somewhat fast....this tree has been out growing almost all of the other jaboticabas I have, that were grafted at the same time.

the fruits were not any larger than a regular sized sabara fruit...but the tree only made a small crop (this was the first crop ever, this year)

One other feature about the plant I have, I notice that the flowers have very small peduncles...where they are tightly packed right up against the trunk of the tree...the total opposite of M. trunciflora.

here are pics of the mother tree, from which I got scions.

[fruithunter]

Thanks Rock,

the main feature I notice about my tree is that the growth habit is very low and the canopy spreads out laterally.

also, the growth rate is somewhat fast....this tree has been out growing almost all of the other jaboticabas I have, that were grafted at the same time.

the fruits were not any larger than a regular sized sabara fruit...but the tree only made a small crop (this was the first crop ever, this year)

One other feature about the plant I have, I notice that the flowers have very small peduncles...where they are tightly packed right up against the trunk of the tree...the total opposite of M. trunciflora.

here are pics of the mother tree, from which I got scions.

Adam, I think my sour jaboticaba has the same feature as yours.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Rock,

I will upload some pictures of the foliage and new branches ASAP.

the plant that I have has a much different habit of growth....the appearance of your tree reminds me of Sabara (of course I know it is not)...the one i have is noticeably different than this.

the leaves are more elongated...the new stems and leaves are quite hairy...(not just finely pubescent)....the fruits are also much smaller than yours (at least so far...the tree has only produced about 6 fruits...but I think this size is normal)

I'm guessing your tree is M. oblongata...did you receive seeds labeled this way?

[FlyingFoxFruits]

for now I found this photo of the unidentified myrciaria I have...it was posted on the forum a while back..

it is a poor picture, but you can still see how hairy the new stems are...(maybe you will have to click twice on the photo to view the largest size).....the leaves are more elongated as well

also notice, the venation on the top of the leaf is very discreet when compared to your photos (of M. oblongata?)

[fruithunter]

Adam, I took those new growth leaves from small trees which were kept in small containers. The following photos were from  larger trees which have more elongated and darker leaves.
Honestly, these trees were not grown from seeds, I bought them from my friend in taiwan who is not sure what variety it is. I think it is possible M. Oblongata according to the description of the book  Brazilian Fruits & Cultivated Exotics by Harri Lorenzi et al.  The fruit shape, darker color of the leaf and the sour taste are for me associated with M.oblongata.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

nice pictures Rock,

thanks for sharing...(is the tree grafted?)

Yes I really think its M. oblongata...based on the description of fruit size, and flavor, and appearance of the foliage and the fruits (have an oblong shape near base)...also another feature I notice is the pink coloration of the pulp, which is consistent with the pictures provided by Helton, on his website (his oblongata fruits also have a nice pink coloration)

I will get good pics of my mystery tree today...It is much different.

[fruithunter]

nice pictures Rock,

thanks for sharing...(is the tree grafted?)

Yes I really think its M. oblongata...based on the description of fruit size, and flavor, and appearance of the foliage and the fruits (have an oblong shape near base)...also another feature I notice is the pink coloration of the pulp, which is consistent with the pictures provided by Helton, on his website (his oblongata fruits also have a nice pink coloration)

I will get good pics of my mystery tree today...It is much different.

Yes, they are grafted.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

thanks Rock,

I thought I could see a graft union in one of your pictures...

I wonder how long it took for your tree to fruit after it was grafted?

anyhow, here are pics of my grafted tree...notice how low and spreading the canopy is...also the new stems and leaves are very hairy.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Rock.

here are the photos from Helton's website...It looks just like your tree.

nice pink coloration!

http://www.colecionandofrutas.org/myrciariaoblongata.htm

[fruithunter]

Adam, if a healthy two-year rootstock are used, it will take about 3 to 4 yeas to fruit, of course, the larger rootstock for grafting may shorten some time to fruit.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Rock,

thanks, that's good to know for this species.

I've heard from quite a few people, that jaboticaba is hard to graft because the cambium layer is so thin....this to me is simply not true.

The reason they are so hard to graft, is because the wood is so dense (hard).

Have you ever tried using scions larger than 1.8cm thick?  Let me just say this is not a job for feeble hands, and a dull blade.  It takes brute force, and razor sharp blade.

after doing about 30 grafts like this, my wrists hurt, and I was worn out...but when the grafts take I'm always pleased with the task I've accomplished.

[ScottR]

Nice looking cleft graft's Adam!

[fruithunter]

Adam,
Never tried that thick scions before, I usually select epicormic shoots as scion. Are the thick scions as 1.8 cm easier to take?

[FlyingFoxFruits]

Adam,
Never tried that thick scions before, I usually select epicormic shoots as scion. Are the thick scions as 1.8 cm easier to take?

no, the thicker scions are much harder to successfully graft.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

soon I will upload some more pics...I have about 7 seedlings I've selected so far.

I will try to take lots of pics of the common M. cauliflora hybrid (Red jabo)...so we can compare old growth, new growth, top of leaf and bottom of leaf...and also growth habit (branching habit, leaf shape and position).

[FlyingFoxFruits]

a bunch of pics of foliage...have fun
M. cauliflora hybrid (red jabo)

M. cauliflora hybrid (red jabo)

suspect mutant red jabo

same suspect mutant red jabo

suspect 2 mutant red jabo

suspect 2 mutant red jabo again

suspect 2 mutant red jabo again

M. cauliflora Paulista

M. coronata var. Restinga

M phitrantha 1

M phitrantha 1

M. trunciflora

M. trunciflora

M. jaboticaba var. Caipirinha

Camu Camu

Camu camu

coronata from Pine Island

coronata from Pine Island

Sabara hybrid (from Pine Island Nursery)

suspect M. trunciflora x Red jabo hybrid

suspect M. trunciflora x Red jabo hybrid

 suspect hybrid Red,x Grimal?

 suspect hybrid Red,x Grimal?

phitrantha 2

[ScottR]

SWEET

[FlyingFoxFruits]

here is an update on a few new Myrciaria varieties:

seedling of Red jabo (or trunciflora) almost certain it's a hybrid of red and trunciflora







hybrid Sabara from PIN



seedling of red jabo, much different than parent plant, could be mutant or new hybrid

[FlyingFoxFruits]

may not be anything too special, but I think this is the first time I've seen a seedling that branched.

they send up multiple sprouts all the time, but they usually emerge from the seed, like separate stalks.  I've never seen one that sprouted, and started to branch from a single sprout.

maybe it happens more than I realize?

here is a red jabo seedling branching out from a single sprout.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

another strange tree, with a weeping growth habit, but doesn't look quite like M. trunciflora.

I have pulled it aside, and added it to my collection of oddities for further evaluation.

[FlyingFoxFruits]

here is an updated photo of the sport that I grafted from a red jaboticaba.

now I have a new variety that is good for bonsai I guess!

the growth habit is super bushy, and the leaves are really small.

and it grows pretty slow.

[Don]

That weeping jabo you have Adam I had a sabara seedling I dug up from below some monsters at a cattle stud when we bought our cows and it had the same weeping growth habit. It grew to about 3 foot tall then all the weeping branches just stopped and everything turned back into upright growth past that. Hopefully yours keeps the habit!

[FlyingFoxFruits]

That weeping jabo you have Adam I had a sabara seedling I dug up from below some monsters at a cattle stud when we bought our cows and it had the same weeping growth habit. It grew to about 3 foot tall then all the weeping branches just stopped and everything turned back into upright growth past that. Hopefully yours keeps the habit!

Don,

I've seen what you're talking about....when a myrciaria (or any other plant for that matter) is planted in the shade, and then moved into a sunnier location, the growth habit can change dramatically.

the little tree in my photo has been in relatively full sunlight...and most certainly has a peculiar weeping habit...definitely not a phase it's going through.

my guess is, it has some trunciflora blood (probably a seedling from a bearing trunciflora tree that was crossed with the red, or maybe sabara)

somehow the plant reminds me of Cousin Itt

[FlyingFoxFruits]

This is a seedling that I suspect is a hybrid of Plinia trunciflora and Precoce (Plinia cauliflora hybrid). The bark is showing some unusual colors, with patches of dark grey and blue. The tree is approximately 5yrs old, 6ft tall, in a 25 gal pot.

 

[ScottR]

interesting thanks for update!

[Don]

Looks awesome Adam. Those trunciflora have a beautiful foliage having small leaves but they are so many of them.

[apresser]

I was looking thru some old posts for Plinia identification and wanted to see if anyone had any ideas on this seedling I planted (but had lost the label to).. I suspect its trunciflora but I'm really not sure. These photos are a few days apart on new growth.

[Mikey]

Which variety is best for san diego’s Weather and soil?