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Author Topic: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown  (Read 33114 times)

fliptop

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2018, 09:16:23 PM »
Simon (and others), when you get multiple sprouts, do you separate and grow out each sprout individually? If so, how soon do you separate them?

I have some yearling PSM and NDM that I separated at birth and are doing well so far in terms of growth. Last year's PPK only kicked out one sprout but I am keeping it.

This year I got clumsy hands and snapped tap roots off seedlings and also feel I separated my two Coconut Cream sprouts too soon. I snapped one completely off the seed but I managed to keep its tap root. Have you ever done something similar and the seedling survived? Thanks!

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #126 on: July 17, 2018, 12:20:55 AM »
Future, thanks for the confirmation on Honey KISS being Polyembryonic, now to find some seeds!

Fliptop, I have separated seedlings from polyembryonic seeds before but I mostly do this for rootstock trees. When Iím propagating Polyembryonic seedlings in hopes of getting a clone, I leave all the seedlings. By leaving all the seedlings, i hope we that only one of the seedlings is zygotic and the rest are clones.

Some of the research articles I posted in another thread show that there can be more than one zygotic seedling arising from a Polyembryonic seed but it is less common.

I have a feeling that if we grow out enough zygotic seedlings, some of us will get lucky with a great tasting new variety. The Zygotic seedling should have about 50% of the genes from the parent Fruit or 100% if it was selfed but with selfing, there is still re arrangement of chromosomes so you will Not get a clone although you can get something almost identical except at the DNA level.

Fliptop, I have snapped off seedling sprouts multiple times and I have often gotten new growth from the tap root.

Simon


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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2018, 03:46:37 AM »
I was at a mango talk the other day where the speaker mentioned she has it on good authority (Richard Campbell?) that a reliable way to choose a clone is to choose an sprout that is neither runty nor too vigorous. Obviously you'd need a few to sprout to be able to compare, but it sounded like a reasonable starting point.

I've collected a few seeds over the weekend. are polys germinated in the same way as monos? Crack open the seed and pull out the embryo and plant away?

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2018, 08:09:28 AM »
CA Hockey, yes thatís the way to do it.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2018, 08:52:03 AM »
My neighbor planted a seed and let both of the sprouts grow until one of them fruited with the clone. Then cut the bad one back.  I don't know if there are disadvantages to this approach, but it worked for him.

I was at a mango talk the other day where the speaker mentioned she has it on good authority (Richard Campbell?) that a reliable way to choose a clone is to choose an sprout that is neither runty nor too vigorous. Obviously you'd need a few to sprout to be able to compare, but it sounded like a reasonable starting point.



Future

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #130 on: July 17, 2018, 10:01:14 AM »
My neighbor planted a seed and let both of the sprouts grow until one of them fruited with the clone. Then cut the bad one back.  I don't know if there are disadvantages to this approach, but it worked for him.

I was at a mango talk the other day where the speaker mentioned she has it on good authority (Richard Campbell?) that a reliable way to choose a clone is to choose an sprout that is neither runty nor too vigorous. Obviously you'd need a few to sprout to be able to compare, but it sounded like a reasonable starting point.



Grafting a seedling scion onto a mature tree, even better.

behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #131 on: July 17, 2018, 10:43:24 AM »
no harm in growing all siblings. here in CA most mangoes will fruit in 2-4 years from seed, whether poly or mono. and in this time frame tree gets to max 5-7 feet tall and wide. if anything, you get a nice established tree to top work/graft onto.

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2018, 01:31:46 PM »
Nutty. That has to be due to the cold nights there. Here it's 4 - 8 years, depending on cultivar. I can shave it down to 2 - 3 by grafting to extremely vigorous shoots of a mature tree.

no harm in growing all siblings. here in CA most mangoes will fruit in 2-4 years from seed, whether poly or mono. and in this time frame tree gets to max 5-7 feet tall and wide. if anything, you get a nice established tree to top work/graft onto.
Jeff  :-)

behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2018, 02:08:00 PM »
Nutty. That has to be due to the cold nights there. Here it's 4 - 8 years, depending on cultivar. I can shave it down to 2 - 3 by grafting to extremely vigorous shoots of a mature tree.

no harm in growing all siblings. here in CA most mangoes will fruit in 2-4 years from seed, whether poly or mono. and in this time frame tree gets to max 5-7 feet tall and wide. if anything, you get a nice established tree to top work/graft onto.

Jeff, we get fruit off a graft within months of grafting. yes, cold nights and dry weather. Frank had his Juliette seedling fruited in 2 years, my Coconut Cream Seedling bloomed in 2.5 yrs, but did not hold this year due to heat wave. hoping it holds next year. Also have LZ now on year 3, should bloom next year, fingers crossed.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:29:11 PM by behlgarden »

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2018, 10:11:24 PM »
Simon (and others), when you get multiple sprouts, do you separate and grow out each sprout individually? If so, how soon do you separate them?

I have some yearling PSM and NDM that I separated at birth and are doing well so far in terms of growth. Last year's PPK only kicked out one sprout but I am keeping it.

This year I got clumsy hands and snapped tap roots off seedlings and also feel I separated my two Coconut Cream sprouts too soon. I snapped one completely off the seed but I managed to keep its tap root. Have you ever done something similar and the seedling survived? Thanks!

Hereís a couple pictures of my Sweet Tart Seedlings. Two sprouts came up from this seed. I direct planted this seed into the ground. Just because two seedlings come up from one seed does not mean that one is zygotic and one is a clone. Also, sometimes one segment of seed will have multiple sprouts come up. Because those seedlings came from the same segment of seed, they should be identical. In this case, if you are trying to get a clone, you could be out of luck because the seedlings could have come from the zygotic segment.






There are a couple things I do to ensure I get two seedlings from different segments of a Polyembryonic seed. The first and easiest method is to sprout the seed and visually inspect that you have at least two segments that sprout separate roots. Once you have verified this, you can plant your seed with more confidence.

The second method is for seeds planted into a pot or the ground. Once the seedlings sprout and gain some size, gently tug on the trunk of one of the seedlings, if both seedlings move, they may be on the same root or the roots are entangled tightly. If the seedlings move independently, they are likely from different segments of seed.

Hereís a NDM seedling growing vigorously. There were 4 sprouts from this seed. One seedling is obviously dominant with the other three being very similar in size and growth rate so one can presume that the offtype is the zygotic seedling.




If I wanted the clone, I could remove two of the three smaller seedlings leaving the two seedlings with different phenotypes but I wanted to see how the four trees will turn out if left alone.

Hereís a couple pictures of some PiŮa Colada seedlings with multiple sprouts coming out.



Simon

fliptop

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #135 on: July 18, 2018, 07:54:23 AM »
Thanks, Simon!
Do you ever use leaf shape, smell, and emergent leaf color to help identify possible clones?

My two seedling CC had the same leaf color when they emerged, but now their leaves look different. The more robust one on the left was the one I snapped completely off the seed, but it kept its tap root:



My three yearling PSM seedlings (from the same seed) are different sizes, maybe owing to different container sizes. Their leaves all look similar and they smell like the PSM mango (another seedling didn't smell like PSM)




I snapped the tap root off this PPK when I repotted it, and then got another seedling.



Last pic is the sole PPK sprout I got last year from a seed. I've never seen a real PPK so I don't know what their leaves look like, but these leaves do smell citrusy.




Thanks again for the info, Simon!

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #136 on: July 18, 2018, 04:30:47 PM »
Hey fliptop,
Yes I do use the leaf color, shape and smell to try to guess which seedlings are the clones. Originally I assumed that you could simply break a leaf and smell the sap to determine the clone for specific varieties like Sweet Tart but I have yet to find a Sweet Tart seedling that does not have the strong pungent Indo Chinese smell to its sap. Iím guessing that the intense Indo Chinese sap smell is a dominant trait or that all the zygotic seedlings were selfed and this retained this attribute.

There is also the possibility that Sweet Tart is one of those varieties where the zygotic seedling dies out in favor of the clones but Iím only assuming at this point.

Best practice is to grow out at least two seedlings from different segments of the seed to fruition.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #137 on: July 19, 2018, 03:07:19 PM »
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, itís better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

Iíve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.



Simon

behlgarden

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2018, 03:29:01 PM »
Simon, what are the chances that E4 seeds got mixed up?

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2018, 03:36:47 PM »
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, itís better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

Iíve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.



Simon

I was saying that a month ago. That some mangoes can go poly or mono.  But you are giving it more refinment. You are saying

--- Mangoes that are poly-embryonic will sometimes give you mono-embryonic seeds. Lets say 5-10% of the time
----Mangoes that  give you mono-embryonic seeds will only give you mono-embryonic seeds. You will never get a poly-embryonic seed from them

Though I will say that from time to time avocado seeds and mono mango seeds will send out two shoots/ two sprouts

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2018, 03:51:02 PM »
Simon, what are the chances that E4 seeds got mixed up?

Hey Behl, it is highly unlikely the seeds got mixed up. I got the seeds from highly respected members with direct links to the Zills. Brad actually had an E4 Fruit that was slightly bruised that he shared with me and I believe the seed was one of those that we couldnít tell for sure if itís mono or poly.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2018, 04:02:10 PM »
A lot of my friends have been contacting me lately regarding polyembryonic Mangos and I want to mention that sometimes polyembryonic Mangos will give you a Monoembryonic seed. When you remove the seed husk and the brown skin from the embryo, you will sometimes see just one segment and the seed will only produce one seedling. I do not know if the one seedling will be a clone or zygotic so if you are going after a clone, itís better to plant a polyembryonic seed with multiple segments.

Iíve seen mono seeds from Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart, Coconut Cream, Orange Sherbet and now E4(Sugarloaf).

Sugarloaf sometimes gets really skinny seeds and when you open up the seed husk, there is an atrophied embryo. From a total of 7 Sugarloaf seeds, I got two atrophied embryos, three Monoembryonic embryos, one that looks mono but could be Polyembryonic( segments not well defined) and one that is for sure polyembryonic.

Here are some Sugarloaf embryos, the one on top is Polyembryonic.



Simon

I was saying that a month ago. That some mangoes can go poly or mono.  But you are giving it more refinment. You are saying

--- Mangoes that are poly-embryonic will sometimes give you mono-embryonic seeds. Lets say 5-10% of the time
----Mangoes that  give you mono-embryonic seeds will only give you mono-embryonic seeds. You will never get a poly-embryonic seed from them

Though I will say that from time to time avocado seeds and mono mango seeds will send out two shoots/ two sprouts

Hey Zands, that is what I believe to be true but Iím no Mango expert. Maybe Alex can chime in or perhaps Dr. Campbell, Dr. Ledesma or Dr. Crane will have additional information.

I have heard anecdotal mention that Monoembryonic varieties can have polyembryonic seeds under certain circumstances but I have not witnessed it myself.

I have very often seen Monoembryonic mango seeds sprout multiple sprouts but it is always from the same trunk or tap root. This is very different from polyembrony. This often occurs when I do stone grafting and behead a newly emerged seedling. The plant seems to be able to detect something wrong with the main sprout and will somehow signal the production of multiple sprouts from the main trunk just below the soil line or sometimes above it.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2018, 05:44:37 PM »
A number of Zill (among other) varieties are known to be inconsistent with their seed.  Odd but true.

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2018, 08:23:17 PM »
These both seeds were from OS.

It seems like the top one is mono, while the bottom is poly? Please confirm.

What if the top seed mono & u planted this seed. Would it also come true to type?


simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2018, 11:18:02 PM »
Thatís what it appears to be but the top seed still has the brown skin on it so there may be segmentation beneath although it doesnít look like thatís the case. I do not know if it will be a clone or the zygotic seedling coming up if only one sprout comes out from the top seed.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2018, 11:29:51 PM »
Fruit cocktail is mono from the two seeds I got


Phoenix  and Karen Michelle is mono as well from the few seeds I got.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #146 on: July 30, 2018, 11:56:24 PM »
Thatís what it appears to be but the top seed still has the brown skin on it so there may be segmentation beneath although it doesnít look like thatís the case. I do not know if it will be a clone or the zygotic seedling coming up if only one sprout comes out from the top seed.

Simon

Hi simon, i have took out the brown skin & no segmentation noticed.

That being said & as well as the seeds u uploaded means it will not be the same as the parent?

simon_grow

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #147 on: July 31, 2018, 12:13:17 AM »
If the seeds I posted truly are Monoembryonic, there would have been a rearrangement of genetic material and the resulting seedling will not be a clone of the parent.

Simon

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #148 on: July 31, 2018, 04:11:16 PM »
If the seeds I posted truly are Monoembryonic, there would have been a rearrangement of genetic material and the resulting seedling will not be a clone of the parent.

Simon

Thanks simon.

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Re: New Zill mangoes -- The monoembryonic vs polyembryonic breakdown
« Reply #149 on: July 31, 2018, 06:55:31 PM »
If you are growing a poly seed and you didn't separate the segments before planting do you guys recommend pulling them apart at some point or just growing them in the same space?  Also could you trim any unwanted seedlings at the stem without causing rot issues for their poly brethren?

 

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