Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: Tip or no tip?  (Read 6806 times)

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Tip or no tip?
« on: October 01, 2014, 01:46:20 AM »
Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting and would like to say thanks to all those that have provided their feedback, experience, and knowledge to help make horticulture so fun and exciting :).

I have recently purchased a 7 gallon Sweet Tart mango tree and have some questions on whether or not I should tip or prune the tree? I had it shipped and I've had it for one month now. The tree isn't showing any new growth. Some of the leaves have what I think is anthracnose but maybe someone else can tell better.

I feel tipping it below the flush points will be a good idea, and maybe to even top it. Any thoughts or suggestions?






TREESNMORE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 924
    • USA Palm City FL Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 06:54:16 AM »
redhaus
 Welcome to the forum. I see your tree is a sweet tart. It is going to want to grow upright so yes I would tip it.
Mike

simon_grow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5632
  • USA, San Diego, CA, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 08:24:41 AM »
Welcome to the forum reshape! I would agree with tipping, especially since you are growing indoors. Nice pick up, I'm also considering a Sweet start. Please keep us updated on the status of your tree.

Simon

puglvr1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
    • USA, Central, FL xxxxx, Zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 08:33:47 AM »

If it were mine I too would tip it and encourage it grow shorter and wider...encouraging a nice, thicker canopy down the road...instead of tall and leggy  8)....Welcome to the Forum and  Congrats on your new mango tree, Good luck!!

TropicalFruitHunters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1225
    • USA, Columbus, OH, xxxxx Zone 5b
    • View Profile
    • Tropical Fruit Hunters
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 08:38:55 AM »
Nice looking plant.  I don't think you have much choice but to PUG the tree quite a bit else you will never get lights on top of it.  You need to shoot for a very short, compact plant versus growing up.  If your lights are strong enough to give you continuous growth over winter, then you could cut it back now.  If not, might want to wait until the plant can go back outside.  Or...make a much taller structure there!!   ;)  Good luck and keep the pictures coming of what you do.

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 12:40:29 PM »
Thank you all for the warm welcome and support!! I will definitely keep everyone posted on my progress. It was a long and hard decision, but in the end I wanted a Zill variety. ST just sounded like a must have :D.

That was exactly what I needed to hear from you guys! I wanted to tip it on day one but the self proclaimed mango experts that were surrounding me (my parents grew up in India lol) were literally having a panic attack when I'd mention the word "cut". Like everyone said, I want bushy and compact growth not upright.

TFH, unfortunately that's the max height I have to work with, but your right, the ideal location of the light is directly above the plant. And this tree will remain in a tent year round! I feel I should cut it now so it can veg over the winter.

I'm going to do what I feel is right. I'm tipping this baby. But I have a couple concerns:

  • I just want to know where would be the best place to do it? On the main trunk, there are three flush points, the top most one being the one you see in the picture where the leaves are almost touching the ceiling of the tent. At the lowest flush point, there are 5 secondary branches. 4 of them have two flush points each. So should I tip below the first (lower) or second (higher) flush point? The rest of the secondary branches have only one flush point so I will tip below there.
  • Should I tip her now, wait a couple weeks, then re-pot? Or re-pot as is, wait a couple weeks, then tip? Benefit of tipping now would be that I can re-pot it higher in the pot to give the roots more space to grow and spread.

The gentlemen at Zill's also suggested I re-pot and root prune. It looks like it's root-bounded and "feels" that way to me. On top of that I feel like there's too much dead organic material in the soil. I noticed a lot of the leaves have brown tips. Is this an indication of that? Zill's soil mix consists of:

30% Melaleuca chips
30% Saw dust
25% Florida peat
15% Coarse sand

That's 85% organic correct? They also use 8-4-8 fertilizer every four months. My tree was fertilized two months prior to me receiving it. The nursery I purchased it from, not Zill's, suggested I fertilize again in a month which would be about now. My main goal is to get her in a bigger 25 gallon pot, and use this soil mix:

40% Pumice
30% Peat moss
20% Plaster's Sand
10% Perlite
Humic acid - Add per instructions for total volume of soil used


Again thank you TREESNMORE, simon_grow, puglvr1, and TropicalFruitHunters for your advice! You guys gave me the confidence I was lacking ;).
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 12:57:04 PM by redhaus »

ClayMango

  • MangoHunter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
    • Zone 9B Ca
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 01:40:00 PM »
The ST is definately gaining ground....seems almost everyone agrees a Perfectly Ripened ST will beat The Crown Holding Lemon Zest any day of the week...good choice!!!

I havent tipped any of my trees here in CA, but I know it took over several months for about 3 of my 12 trees to start growing....while others shot through the roof... I did notice ST is extremely Vigorous only getting beat out by me Edward as far as growth....and my ST tree has been knocked over by the wind at least 4 timese because I'm a negligent Father to my babies :(  but its a trooper forsure! Tip or no tip...I think that thing will grow and grow fast...
Thinking about joining a Fruitaholics anonymous support group...Fruit addiction has taken over my life!

TREESNMORE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 924
    • USA Palm City FL Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 02:03:29 PM »
In the first picture the yellow name tag just above that it branches. Cut it at the next set of leaves. When you step it up go to a 15 gallon first. You are trying to keep it in a pot so go 15 then 25.
Mike

MangoFang

  • Palm Springs, CA, Zone 9B
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Palm Springs, CA
    • Riverside, Palm Springs/CA, 92264,9b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 02:24:20 PM »
Dear Red - I don't think the little brown on the tips is anything to worry about.
Mango leaves do that.  I like TREESNMORE's tipping suggestion.  Can't help you
with the potting soil mix, as all mine are IN ground.

I basically wanted to welcome you to the Mad, Mad world of ........

Gary

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 02:49:05 PM »
ClayMango, it was between the LZ and ST for me! Thanks for saying that I'm glad I went with the ST!!

So ST was not 3 of your 12 trees correct? How long would you say it took before your ST showed new growth?

Thanks Mike for the help. This is my first time tipping a mango tree so I apologize for all the questions in advance.

To confirm, you mean the next set of leaves on the main trunk correct? Do I cut above or below that set of leaves? Because there are three branches coming out there on the trunk.

Also the branches above the name tag, each branch has two sets of leaves. Do I tip these branches? If so, at which set of leaves?

Gary, thank you very much for the welcome :). Haha I knew I was crazy when I decided to grow and fruit a mango tree indoors in Chicago ;D

Okay good to know about the leaves. When I received it I found some webs at the flush points, and have been spraying it with neem oil for the past 3 weeks every 3 to 4 days.

I like Mike's suggestion as well and is most likely what I will do. Would it be better to tip it in the day when the light is on? Doing it at night feels like I may be disturbing it's sleep or resting cycle.

edzone9

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2542
    • Zone 10 SW Florida
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 03:18:44 PM »
Tip & Pug, I like to add a lil Bloom booster just to get it going ;)..
Great looking tree !..

Ed..
Zone 10

pj1881 (Patrick)

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1381
    • USA, Palm Beach, FL 33415, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
    • Brooks Tropical Nursery
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 03:29:06 PM »
Bring it back quite a bit, it will continue to develop a good root system.  After a couple years it will be better suited to "pug" with a nice well established root ball for recovery.  Eventually you will want to be able to not "tip" it in a size/shape to induce dormancy and subsequent fruit cycle, so size does matter in this case. But overdoing it early on may shock it into years of recovery.

NewGen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • Zone 10a, Central Valley, CA, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 03:57:03 PM »
Can someone explain to me the difference between these terms used on the forum: tip, top, pug, prune?
Thanks,

TREESNMORE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 924
    • USA Palm City FL Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2014, 04:34:29 PM »
Do one limb then take a  picture. Cut it one inch past the leaves. You can cut the main trunk last so we can see it.

 NewGen
To tip is just that cut the tip
 To top is to cut the top or main leader
 To prune is to trim the whole tree
 To pug is to cut the tree back hard
Mike

ClayMango

  • MangoHunter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
    • Zone 9B Ca
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2014, 04:42:01 PM »
ClayMango, it was between the LZ and ST for me! Thanks for saying that I'm glad I went with the ST!!

So ST was not 3 of your 12 trees correct? How long would you say it took before your ST showed new growth?

Thanks Mike for the help. This is my first time tipping a mango tree so I apologize for all the questions in advance.

To confirm, you mean the next set of leaves on the main trunk correct? Do I cut above or below that set of leaves? Because there are three branches coming out there on the trunk.

Also the branches above the name tag, each branch has two sets of leaves. Do I tip these branches? If so, at which set of leaves?

Gary, thank you very much for the welcome :). Haha I knew I was crazy when I decided to grow and fruit a mango tree indoors in Chicago ;D

Okay good to know about the leaves. When I received it I found some webs at the flush points, and have been spraying it with neem oil for the past 3 weeks every 3 to 4 days.

I like Mike's suggestion as well and is most likely what I will do. Would it be better to tip it in the day when the light is on? Doing it at night feels like I may be disturbing it's sleep or resting cycle.

Red

My Sweet Tart was not one of the 3, but all of my trees are put through a recovering cycle upon reciept. They are placed on my Back porch out of Direct Sun and only recieve about 3 hours of morning Sunlight... Direct Sunlight and planting right away can be an extremely rough and dangerous transition for trees that have been shipped in a boxed container...It's like your waking up your tree from the Matrix...You can't expose it to the world all at once when it has been living in a box.

I used Happy Frog Potting Soil from Fox Farms high in Bat Guano and Worm Castings, I also used the K-L-N Root Hormone right away by *Dyngro which is used  by the University of Florida. After about 3 weeks or so I place them in full sun and  lightly fertilize them with a 7-9-5 also from Dynagro....After about 3-4 weeks all my trees except 3 of them ether flushed or flowered (This was around spring) Coconut Cream and Both of my Lemon Zest were a little late by a few months compared to everyone else.

In Southern CA, our trees do not respond the same to tipping that Florida does. I was advised by a forum Member to just let them grow, which is exactly what I've done...these were 7 G trees which are 12g and 15g trees easily right now in a matter of 6 months... ST is a fast grower for sure, give it some time.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 04:48:30 PM by ClayMango »
Thinking about joining a Fruitaholics anonymous support group...Fruit addiction has taken over my life!

michsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 547
    • Hacienda Heights, CA (Southern California, Los Angeles)
    • View Profile
    • Pictures of my trees.. nothing fancy
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 04:43:27 PM »
so you would 'pug' the 'tip' to 'prune' the 'top' of the tree?  ;D

NewGen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • Zone 10a, Central Valley, CA, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2014, 04:48:47 PM »
In Southern CA, our trees do not respond the same to tipping Florida does. I was advised by a forum Memeber to just let them grow, which is exactly what I've done...I have 7 G trees which are 12g and 15g trees easily right now in a matter of months... 

My Top Tropical mango trees have also really sprouted, they're approaching 7' tall. Mine are all in containers, I'm afraid if I let them just grow straight up, they can easily get blown over. Any of your mango trees in containers?

NewGen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • Zone 10a, Central Valley, CA, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2014, 04:50:20 PM »

 NewGen
To tip is just that cut the tip
 To top is to cut the top or main leader
 To prune is to trim the whole tree
 To pug is to cut the tree back hard

Thanks for the clarification.
 :)

ClayMango

  • MangoHunter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
    • Zone 9B Ca
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 04:51:24 PM »
so you would 'pug' the 'tip' to 'prune' the 'top' of the tree?  ;D

Neither...Definately don't Pug it lol...You will have that stump for a lifetime.
Thinking about joining a Fruitaholics anonymous support group...Fruit addiction has taken over my life!

ClayMango

  • MangoHunter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
    • Zone 9B Ca
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 04:54:47 PM »
In Southern CA, our trees do not respond the same to tipping Florida does. I was advised by a forum Memeber to just let them grow, which is exactly what I've done...I have 7 G trees which are 12g and 15g trees easily right now in a matter of months... 

My Top Tropical mango trees have also really sprouted, they're approaching 7' tall. Mine are all in containers, I'm afraid if I let them just grow straight up, they can easily get blown over. Any of your mango trees in containers?


NewGEN...many of my Trees are in Containers...Just wanted some growth on a few trees before planting and also waiting for their first Winter to pass....ST is still in a pot and has been blown over 4 times...It was a skinny 7g from Top Tropicals that has become a Monster,!!! Looks like it's starting to fill in now....developing some bushy areas....
Thinking about joining a Fruitaholics anonymous support group...Fruit addiction has taken over my life!

nullzero

  • Zone 10a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3548
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 05:05:22 PM »
redhaus,

When you do the root pruning insure you can get a nice wide container. Most 10 gal fabric containers are slightly over 1ft tall. Since every inch is precious you may want to look into a wide +7 gal container that is under 10 inches in height.

Also see measure where the graft line is, optimally you would want to pug the tree a few inches above the graft line (if possible, however you may not have any leaves or tree structure left above the cut point. In this case you are taking your chance that the tree will bounce back with a nice growth flush after the pug cut is made.

If you are going to do a big pug cut, I would work on doing the root pruning and repotting first. Then a few months down the road when spring is coming, consider the pug then. If you have a nice light setup and intend to flush the tree through the winter season, then consider doing it earlier.

Hopefully you are using LED lights, because anything else like HPS or CFL is going to limit the distance the leaves can be without leaf burn. Optimal would be a nice LED light setup with light frequencies tuned for vegetative growth. LED would also take up less vertical space. You can also position lighting to the sides and train newly flushed leaves to grow to the side using string,twist ties, and popsicle sticks.

Also another idea is to take some of the tipped growth and try to graft it onto the rootstock much lower down.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2014, 03:42:42 AM »
Thanks everyone for your responses. Mike I will do that and see what happens. I think I have a better idea of where to cut now. I also found this which I found helpful:

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/41/3/543.full.pdf

ClayMango, I am not lucky enough to have the natural weather of CA or FL to facilitate the growth of this tree. I am trying my best to imitate nature inside the tent. I will prune it and see what happens.

Is anyone interested in scions for grafting? I'll be saving some so let me know whoever wants them.

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2014, 07:48:28 PM »
Alright guys I went ahead and did some tipping today. I want to encourage the tree to form a short and compact bushy shape so hopefully doing the cuts above the leaf sets will encourage more stems to grow as opposed to below the leaves.

This is what it looks like now:





In the second picture there you see the set of leaves (flush point) on the main trunk. There are three branches coming out there, one is thick and long while the other two are thinner and shorter. I want to cut above that set of leaves, so that branching can occur where those 3 already are. Can anyone see a reason why I shouldn't do it there? Will higher up be better? I feel if I do it higher it'll have a more leggy tall shape than short and wide.

FrankDrebinOfFruits

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
    • Kauai, HI 12A
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2014, 09:37:31 PM »
I am curious to see the outside of your tent and how you plan to heat it during the winter...


Maybe there would be hope for me in a cold climate  ;D

Guanabanus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2538
  • SE Palm Beach County, East of I-95, Elevation 18'
    • USA, Florida, Boynton Beach, 33435, Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2014, 11:34:14 PM »
There is another option:  a non-lollipop shape.

Instead of cutting, train.   Bend.  No growth is lost, except when you accidentally break a branch.   Yeah, just stand there, bending, twisting, holding in place, patiently, 5-10 minutes, if it is very stiff.  Repeat other days, if needed.
Har

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2014, 02:22:41 AM »
Pruning completed:





I think I was feeling the pain myself every time I cut a branch, but in the end I couldn't be happier. I am really liking the shape now and can see it turning into a nice little bush. I chose to tip below the flush points to have a better, more spread out structure of branches. Rather than tipping above the flush point and having them all coming out in one location.

I will keep everyone posted.

FrankDrebinOfFruits, I have the tent indoors. So the lowest temp is the indoor temp which is around 77F and we're in Fall.

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7488
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2014, 07:56:58 AM »
I always preferto go in hard with pruning.

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2014, 02:34:43 PM »
Wanted to update everyone on the progress with the ST.

I still thought the tree was too tall and lanky after I pruned it so I decided to pug it (thanks to Nancy ;)). I re-potted then pugged it around 19" above the graft on 10/17. The cut was a bit lower than I would have liked but still okay.

On 10/25 I noticed new growth at 11 different points (8 days after pugging) :)

Pugged on 10/17/14:



First sight of new growth on 10/25/14:




simon_grow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5632
  • USA, San Diego, CA, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2014, 11:34:03 PM »
Nice pugging redhaus! I know it's hard to do but you'll get a more compact and bushy tree. You've already got lots of nice growth buds that are evenly spaced around the trunk. Please keep us updated on this Sweet Tart of yours.

Simon

nullzero

  • Zone 10a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3548
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2014, 11:44:54 PM »
Redhaus,

Congrats on making the plunge, that must of been a tough prune to do :). Your going to have a nice compact tree in the future.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

puglvr1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1946
    • USA, Central, FL xxxxx, Zone 9b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2014, 08:18:06 AM »


I think Simon and Null are right...once it gets really going you're going to have a nice low compact tree. I know how hard it is to "pug" a tree especially this severe...to this day I still get very nervous and apprehensive every time I do it,lol...it never gets easier for me and I've done it many times  ::) :o

Best of luck to you...and yes please update!!

Raulglezruiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1250
  • Puerto Vallarta,Mexico. Lat 21.5 Semi Tropical
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2014, 10:55:27 AM »
Congratulations on your new groth Redhaus! You're very brave to do that!  I always related " pugging" to a person being mature and having the patience virtue, I now is the best thing for having a nice low and wide spread canopy,but I have to fight with my child spirit , who want things faster no matter what!! Im being doing tipping on my grafted trees, perhaps once in a couple years when I have some fruit on any of these trees, I'll have the patience to do "pugging" onmy newer trees!! :)
El verde es vida!

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2014, 07:37:02 PM »
Thank you everyone for the kind words :)

Simon and Nancy, yes it was very hard to do. It took me three days to think about where to cut and just get comfortable with the idea. I will definitely keep everyone posted!

nullzero, it did feel like a huge risk. I had two Pickering mangoes previously that I didn't even pug and they died soon after I received them and repotted. The culprit was "sour" pine bark mulch that I used to make Al's Gritty Mix. It was from a bag of Repti-Bark I bought at PetSmart.

Raul, thank you very much! I have to control my child spirit too and this time I'm glad I made the right decision for nice compact growth. I was going to leave it as is to rush and get it to fruit, but I decided against it. I wanted to share my progress with others so they can feel confident to do it themselves. You should definitely try it, you may be surprised! And the feeling of seeing new growth is well worth it ;)

redhaus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • USA, IL, Chicago, Zone 5b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2014, 06:38:37 PM »
UPDATE:

It's been exactly 4 weeks since the pug. Safe to say Sweet Tart is an extremely vigorous variety.



« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 03:22:13 AM by redhaus »

johnb51

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2820
    • USA Coconut Creek, FL Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Tip or no tip?
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2014, 06:57:40 PM »
Tip well always!  Thank you.
John

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers