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Author Topic: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?  (Read 7302 times)

Jackfruitwhisperer69

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Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« on: May 20, 2012, 12:52:18 PM »
Hi to all :),

I wanted to know how long does a polyembryonic mango grown from seeds take to produce?

Any inputs...are all welcome ;)

Thanks in advance :)
Steven S.
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 01:19:35 PM »
Hi Steve with proper conditions it takes about 5 years, but it can vary between 3 to 8 years depending on growing conditions.

Hi Enduser,
That's awesome. I thought that the poly. mangos will take as long as the mono. mangos to produce.

Have you grown poly. mangos from seed?

Thanks for your input :)

Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 01:21:03 PM »
Hi to all :),

I wanted to know how long does a polyembryonic mango grown from seeds take to produce?

Any inputs...are all welcome ;)

Thanks in advance :)
Steven S.

Are you sprouting some poly seeds or is this theoretical? California guys can correct me but LaVerne nursery there gets Philippine (poly from seed) mangoes to the stores quickly and they produce mangoes soon...my guess is 4 years from seed to mango making. You want to accelerate your mango tree out of juvenility and into (adulthood) mango production then tipping does this. For poly or mono. I have a mono seedling growing I should be branch tipping right now
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 01:40:15 PM »
Hi to all :),

I wanted to know how long does a polyembryonic mango grown from seeds take to produce?

Any inputs...are all welcome ;)

Thanks in advance :)
Steven S.

Are you sprouting some poly seeds or is this theoretical? California guys can correct me but LaVerne nursery there gets Philippine (poly from seed) mangoes to the stores quickly and they produce mangoes soon...my guess is 4 years from seed to mango making. You want to accelerate your mango tree out of juvenility and into (adulthood) mango production then tipping does this. For poly or mono. I have a mono seedling growing I should be branch tipping right now

Hi Zands,
I'm going to get some poly. seeds from excellent mango varieties this year.

Thanks for your input and the tip :) I was also thinking of inarching the mangos to speed up the growth.
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 01:50:38 PM »
Hi Steve with proper conditions it takes about 5 years, but it can vary between 3 to 8 years depending on growing conditions.

Hi Enduser,
That's awesome. I thought that the poly. mangos will take as long as the mono. mangos to produce.

Have you grown poly. mangos from seed?

Thanks for your input :)

Steven from my personal experience it made no difference if they were mono or poly. Both produce at about the same time. My family members do plant mangoes from seed and I have seen the results that I stated. I do not let any of my seedlings reach adulthood since I use them for rootstock. I find that the Tommy's produce strong healthy rootstocks.

Enduser,
Growing monos are a bit of a gamble...but, there is alway's a chance of getting a keeper. I would prefer poly. since they are true to type.

I have grown several keitts, Palmer's, and Tommies for rootstocks...your right about the Tommy, it sure does produce a strong healthy rootstock for grafting.

Thanks again :)
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 05:23:46 PM »
A poly seed puts up about 6 sprouts... I sprouted my first last year but lost track of that experiment. They say to pick the strongest sprout and kill the others and the strongest will grow true to the original fruit. The weaker sprouts less so. These days I think they can test (DNA?) the best sprout you picked and see if it does indeed match the original fruit. That modern nurseries do this. Previously the best was picked by looks, vibes, and growers experience.

I think it was JF  (Fernandez) who a month ago posted a photo of 4 young mango stalks growing close together. This was a poly seed that he did not cull the weaker sprouts from. They looked very good. If I had enough room I would make a 40 foot row or hedge of this and see what happens. Maybe you have enough room. A neighbor has a very productive Philippine mango (poly) tree. I am going to be asking him for seeds to try out the JF way. My older trees are all mono. My younger trees are mostly poly  (for those who don't know the poly Mangoes are SE Asia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines while mono seeds are the ones from India/Pakistan and most Florida mangoes because 90% of them are of India/Pakistan heritage)

I was also thinking of inarching the mangos to speed up the growth.

Definitely worth a try....you can find original pages from Philippines on this. I have not tried it. It costs you nothing just start spouting mangoes.
http://secretgardenofdoris.com/quality-exotic-fruit-trees/mango-doublerootstock/

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=252798


« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 05:49:51 PM by zands »
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 11:27:49 PM »
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?
Oscar

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 10:26:59 AM »
A poly seed puts up about 6 sprouts... I sprouted my first last year but lost track of that experiment. They say to pick the strongest sprout and kill the others and the strongest will grow true to the original fruit. The weaker sprouts less so. These days I think they can test (DNA?) the best sprout you picked and see if it does indeed match the original fruit. That modern nurseries do this. Previously the best was picked by looks, vibes, and growers experience.

I think it was JF  (Fernandez) who a month ago posted a photo of 4 young mango stalks growing close together. This was a poly seed that he did not cull the weaker sprouts from. They looked very good. If I had enough room I would make a 40 foot row or hedge of this and see what happens. Maybe you have enough room. A neighbor has a very productive Philippine mango (poly) tree. I am going to be asking him for seeds to try out the JF way. My older trees are all mono. My younger trees are mostly poly  (for those who don't know the poly Mangoes are SE Asia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines while mono seeds are the ones from India/Pakistan and most Florida mangoes because 90% of them are of India/Pakistan heritage)

I was also thinking of inarching the mangos to speed up the growth.

Definitely worth a try....you can find original pages from Philippines on this. I have not tried it. It costs you nothing just start spouting mangoes.
http://secretgardenofdoris.com/quality-exotic-fruit-trees/mango-doublerootstock/

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=252798





Hi Zands,
Your right about choosing the most vigorous seedling for ''true to type''. I was a bit confused about this matter...Because, some say the weakest seedling must be chosen...other say the most vigorous seedling must be chosen?. On futher reseach, I came to the conclusion that vigorous seedling will be true to type and the weaker ones will be ''off types''

Multi-root technology is truly fascinating 8) Bernardo Dizon was the source for my inspiration to do multi-root grafting, after finding his website about 4 years ago...I done this method for white sapote, which is growing fast and very well.

Fruit trees will definitely benefit from a multi-root graft and since they have more that one root system...the extra roots will help them to grow faster, less time for production and more wind tolerant.

Thank you so much for the links...they were awesome!!!! :)

Here's Bernardo Dizon new website...don't know what happended to the old one.
http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 10:31:32 AM »
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?

That's a long time. LaVerne nursery is the poly seed king. They specialize in seedling (not grafted) Philippine mangoes. My guess is from planting the seed to selling the plant at Home Depot etc takes 3 years. You are then getting 5-10 mangoes two years after you plant it. So that would be five years from seed planting to getting decent number of fruits
MangoDog would know more since he has one that did great.

One Florida guy posted a photo of a mango seedling tree bearing good fruit after 5 years. That is as good as it gets. One problem with mono-seedling trees is they put out some very variable size fruits. Such as you see three nice normal size mangoes coming along with many smaller ones...... and do the runty ones ripen? They probably do but you get high seed to flesh ratio. I'm saying the tree allocates resources unevenly. This is just a theory from trees I have seen
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 10:37:36 AM »


Here's Bernardo Dizon new website...don't know what happended to the old one. I saw the old site. Hard to navigate but had great photos of his double rootstock trees
http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm



Bernardo Dizon is the man!! No doubt about it. I like clever guys who think originally and put their theory into reality. Fairchild Gardens should pay his plane fare to come to the Mango Festival but I doubt that will ever happen. Mangoes are a serious business in the Philippines, people depend on it for their livelihood. Mangoes for export and for internal consumption. They try all kinds of chemical tricks there like the Taiwanese will do to get the mango tree bearing every year instead biennially http://themangofactory.com/mango-articles2/blooming-and-pollination/

Like I said, $$$$$ is at stake they are not dilettantes and not fooling around. Bernardo Dizon is a participant because he claims his double rootstock mango will bear sooner and heavier. A mango grove owner would be very interested in this

Here's Bernardo Dizon new website...don't know what happened to the old one.

I saw the old site. Hard to navigate but had great photos of his double rootstock trees
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:46:04 AM by zands »
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 10:49:14 AM »
Hi Steven, i have one poly mango i grew from seed--just because it was the only way i could bring it in. It is a cultivar called Harumanis, from Malaysia, there widely considered the best tasting of mangos. As Zands pointed out, the poly seed will produce several sprouts, not all will be poly, some could be mono. Usually the most vigorous sprout is considered the clone. I planted the 2 most vigorous sprouts in one hole. This double tree has been growing great guns for about 9 years, but never flowered. Never, that is, until just now! Let's see if it finally fruits?

Hi Oscar,
I checked out Harumanis mango on the web. sure is an excellent mango...nice golden coloured flesh 8)

Fingers crossed...hope you get fruit's soon ;) 9 years sure is a long time...next time you should try to inarch the trees to speed up the growth :) That's what I'm going to do with the poly mangos.
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 10:59:03 AM »


Hi Oscar,
I checked out Harumanis mango on the web. sure is an excellent mango...nice golden coloured flesh 8)

Fingers crossed...hope you get fruit's soon ;) 9 years sure is a long time...next time you should try to inarch the trees to speed up the growth :) That's what I'm going to do with the poly mangos.

The great mango scam is that just about all mangoes are mid-season. So if you have 5-10 different mango trees you get a gold rush of different tastes but the fruits are coming in pretty much the same time. I know it is difficult for you to acquire but I would try to get a Rosigold for early mango and a Gold Nugget, Keitt or Neelam for late. Who knows. With your poly seed experiments maybe you will come up with an early or late mango. I do have those late mangoes but missed the boat on Rosigold and am now out of room. My early tree is Glenn and I'll have first bite in a few days, but it has edible fruit 30 days after Rosigold, going by what SW Rancher posted about his Rosigold tree

Since all ripe backyard mangoes taste good to me....my logic that when the mango is ripe to eat is more important than the variety. Though it is good to have a mix of mono-seed and poly-seed trees. This means a mix of trees of India/Pakistan origin and those of IndoChinese origin
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 11:09:45 AM by zands »
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2012, 11:08:04 AM »
I have a poly seed in pot right now waiting to sprout. it was Altufo from Costco. Plan is to do what JF did.


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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2012, 11:36:26 AM »
I have a poly seed in pot right now waiting to sprout. it was Altufo from Costco. Plan is to do what JF did.


Great idea. JF's plants looked very good and dang I threw out two Atulfo seeds!

Here for everyone is the pdf which I would save onto my computer...... How tip pruning gets your mango trees fruiting sooner due to shortening the years it spends in juvenility (as a juvenile, as a boy or girl). And starts fruiting as an adult mango tree sooner

IN ADDITION:Grafting mangoes also makes the tree bypass and skip some of the juvenile years  that seedling trees must go through. So grafted gets you mango fruits sooner
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:37:43 PM by zands »
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2012, 11:59:13 AM »
Zands,
I definitely want to improve my mango collection...Tommy Atkins ain't kick'n for me anymore.

I ordered some grafted mangos from the nursery last year...due to few takes...I will get them later in the season.
I will get Keitt, Rosa, Glenn, and Osteen...maybe, I will also get Anderson. but, it has a tendency to split on the tree.

Is Osteen a good var.?

Awesome links BTW!!! I'm learning alot from you....Thanks :)


Hi Oscar,
I checked out Harumanis mango on the web. sure is an excellent mango...nice golden coloured flesh 8)

Fingers crossed...hope you get fruit's soon ;) 9 years sure is a long time...next time you should try to inarch the trees to speed up the growth :) That's what I'm going to do with the poly mangos.

The great mango scam is that just about all mangoes are mid-season. So if you have 5-10 different mango trees you get a gold rush of different tastes but the fruits are coming in pretty much the same time. I know it is difficult for you to acquire but I would try to get a Rosigold for early mango and a Gold Nugget, Keitt or Neelam for late. Who knows. With your poly seed experiments maybe you will come up with an early or late mango. I do have those late mangoes but missed the boat on Rosigold and am now out of room. My early tree is Glenn and I'll have first bite in a few days, but it has edible fruit 30 days after Rosigold, going by what SW Rancher posted about his Rosigold tree

Since all ripe backyard mangoes taste good to me....my logic that when the mango is ripe to eat is more important than the variety. Though it is good to have a mix of mono-seed and poly-seed trees. This means a mix of trees of India/Pakistan origin and those of IndoChinese origin
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2012, 12:50:24 PM »
Thanks for the PDF on tip pruning and the reference to time to fruit from seed.  I had seen much on it, mostly from Fairchild, but none that I recalll referencing time to fruit from seed.  This is a must for me as I live in a country that is very very difficult to get grafted trees.  Tipping was always spoken of for maximum production but time to fruit....good one.  Time to start tipping again....

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2012, 05:48:30 PM »
I bought some Osteen mangos here. They were quite large, like a Keitt, very nice dark red colored. Taste was good but not remarkable. What was remarkable is how early in the season the fruits were available. I don't know how this local farmer got them to fruit so early? I think it was  March when i bought them.
Oscar

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2012, 09:06:37 PM »
Zands,
I definitely want to improve my mango collection...Tommy Atkins ain't kick'n for me anymore.

I ordered some grafted mangos from the nursery last year...due to few takes...I will get them later in the season.
I will get Keitt, Rosa, Glenn, and Osteen...maybe, I will also get Anderson. but, it has a tendency to split on the tree.

Is Osteen a good var.?

Awesome links BTW!!! I'm learning alot from you....Thanks :)


You are very welcome and dittos for poster "Future" in Bahamas!!! I know nothing about Osteen mango and don't hear much about it in Florida. Glenn is good early mango just getting my first ones now. Keitt is good for late season mango, just be able to protect it from the squirrels and don't plant it where people might steal it. Plant it in a protected area. Keitt fruits are large and look ripe with some red and purple on top for 50 days before they really are ripe so they tempt thieves

Don't give up on your young Tommy Atkins. He will probably turn out great where you are with your clay soil. A big rare fruit guru here has a Tommy Atkins in his yard.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 11:59:14 PM by zands »
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2012, 11:47:44 PM »
Steven and Zands, there was a thread about Osteen earlier when i asked about it. Apparently it's fairly popular in Europe, was developed in Florida--i think Merritt Island?
Oscar

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2012, 11:53:04 PM »
In the 1990's, two or three other persons and I looked over 40,000-80,000 gallon pots, each with a Turpentine polyembryonic seed in it, to remove off-types and weaklings, and to transplant some of the better extras.
One year genetic testing was done to check on our decision making about the more similar-looking ones, not the grossly obvious ones.   The nursery owner and I both got better than 80%.

Often the strongest-looking ones are off-types.  Of course, grossly contorted ones and chlorotic ones and strangely colored ones and greasy-leafed ones are usually off-types.

The early strength of mango seedlings is largely determined by embryo (seed) size--- so early vigor is neutral for determining standard (a.k.a. type or "pure") versus off-type Turpentines.  Nurserys that prefer the biggest seedlings are "keeping it simple" for their own immediate convenience, but many of these plants will no longer be vigorous when they run out of food stored in the seed.

A "type" (think of "typical") is a clone of the mother tree and does not have a father (pollen grain).

An off-type is produced by sex--- even when a tree has sex between its own flowers, variation is produced.

On the market one can find Nam Doc Mai #4 and others--- which variations presumably are off-types which arose by Nam Doc Mai trees' self-pollinating.
Har

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2012, 11:59:10 PM »
In the 1990's, two or three other persons and I looked over 40,000-80,000 gallon pots, each with a Turpentine polyembryonic seed in it, to remove off-types and weaklings, and to transplant some of the better extras.
One year genetic testing was done to check on our decision making about the more similar-looking ones, not the grossly obvious ones.   The nursery owner and I both got better than 80%.

Often the strongest-looking ones are off-types.  Of course, grossly contorted ones and chlorotic ones and strangely colored ones and greasy-leafed ones are usually off-types.

The early strength of mango seedlings is largely determined by embryo (seed) size--- so early vigor is neutral for determining standard (a.k.a. type or "pure") versus off-type Turpentines.  Nurserys that prefer the biggest seedlings are "keeping it simple" for their own immediate convenience, but many of these plants will no longer be vigorous when they run out of food stored in the seed.

A "type" (think of "typical") is a clone of the mother tree and does not have a father (pollen grain).

An off-type is produced by sex--- even when a tree has sex between its own flowers, variation is produced.

On the market one can find Nam Doc Mai #4 and others--- which variations presumably are off-types which arose by Nam Doc Mai trees' self-pollinating.

That is why i planted 2 of the Harumanis poly seed sprouts into the one hole. I wasn't sure that the most vigorous was really the clonal material. I picked 2 to improve my odds of really getting the Harumanis.
Oscar

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2012, 12:14:26 AM »
That is why i planted 2 of the Harumanis poly seed sprouts into the one hole. I wasn't sure that the most vigorous was really the clonal material. I picked 2 to improve my odds of really getting the Harumanis.

Nine years....That's when Brittany Spears was a big deal and the Rolling Stones were still touring....but I digress....
The easy lazy bet on your "Double Fantasy" tree is this year flowers, next year fruit
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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2012, 03:43:39 PM »
Hi,
@Oscar- Osteen sure looks like an excellent fruit...nearly fiberless and has a mild yet sweet flavor 8)
              Never knew it was popular in Europe...until now. But, it's really funny...I have never seen them for sale here :(
              I found this pic from wikipedia.


@Zands-Thanks for the advice :) I don't have much problems with fruit thieves here. But, I will plant the trees where nobody can access them ;)
             Won't remove Tommy since it was my first grafted mango tree I bought...but, will see how it goes...

@Har- Great to have you aboard...I'm also learning alot from you :) Thanks for your input ;)
Steven

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2012, 04:04:35 PM »
Zands - what you say is close to the truth.  My Home Depot Manila took a couple years to get my first mango - maybe even 3 years, and after that it was fruiting at a squared rate of production up until last year's 66 (It's about 8 years old or 8 1/2  now from the time I got it - with the extra 3 years LaVerne had it, that would make it between 11 and 12)

Behl - i've got 4 sprouted Costco Ataulfos and they each only produced a single shoot!  Are you sure there not Mono-embryonic?


Fanged


PS - yeah that Osteen gets some whistles from me, too!

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Re: Polyembryonic mango grown from seed...?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2012, 04:50:36 PM »
Gary, I actually opened up the mango shell completely and found 3 to 4 round seeds closely glued together, its 100% sure multiple seeds/embriyos. Other manogo seeds when opened up show only one seed inside.

Am I missing something? I will open one today and post picture. I am pretty sure in polyembriyonic mangoes there are miltiple small round seeds inside that hard shell.

 

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