Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: Please identify this Diospyros species for me  (Read 4538 times)

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« on: January 20, 2015, 12:34:30 AM »









vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2015, 11:50:02 AM »
?! :(

stuartdaly88

  • Phytomaniac
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Zone 9b/10a
    • South Africa, Gauteng
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2015, 12:09:02 PM »
Will help people if you show the size of the fruit like what's the diameter?  Also leaves and pics of the plant would help alot, bark etc.
Are you sure that is ripe? I know some local DiospyroS(inedible though I think) stay green like that for a long long time then quickly turn orange and the birds are on them immediately or else they burst I'm not sure which!
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2015, 12:24:14 PM »
Sorry for not providing vital datas like picture of leaves, size of the fruit etc.
The fruit size is that of a small tomato and the fruit was unripe.
I found the tree in a park, with no label.
If I get another chance to be there, I will post some more details.
Thank you.

TREESNMORE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 919
    • USA Palm City FL Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2015, 01:10:59 PM »
Black Sapote . That  one should have been left on tree longer then picked and let it get soft
Mike

Tropicaliste

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • Washington D.C. Area, US 7a
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2015, 02:48:22 PM »
I agree. Unripe black sapote. As my mom used to say, it's the texture of baby P**p when it's ripe. Lol

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8460
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2015, 02:56:04 PM »
Black Sapote . That  one should have been left on tree longer then picked and let it get soft
Based on the way the calyx has lifted and the dull coloration, it was picked at the right time.  It just needs time for it to ripen which could take up to a week.
- Rob

stuartdaly88

  • Phytomaniac
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Zone 9b/10a
    • South Africa, Gauteng
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2015, 03:03:57 PM »
Isn't black sapote bigger than a small tomato? Though I suppose it depends on what you call a small tomato lol
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau

BMc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1740
  • Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2015, 03:23:55 PM »
Doesn't look like black Sapote. Aren't the seeds always brown? Something just don't look quite right. Black Sapote can be any size, I have one no bigger than chicken eggs but beautifully sweet.

bsbullie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8460
    • USA, Boynton Beach, FL 33472, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2015, 04:04:55 PM »
Doesn't look like black Sapote. Aren't the seeds always brown? Something just don't look quite right. Black Sapote can be any size, I have one no bigger than chicken eggs but beautifully sweet.

That was why I was initially hesitant to say it was a black sapote.  I was going to pluck one from the tree later this week and cut it to see what the insides look like when fresh picked and not ripened.
- Rob

AlexRF

  • Subarctic Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
  • Alex
    • Russia, Saint-Petersburg, warmhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2015, 05:09:53 PM »
Probably unripen D. malabarica. Need leaf photo.
YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 07:55:44 PM »
Thanks you all for the replies.

I have Black sapote seedlings and the leaves look different in this tree.
The fruit easily fit inside the palm.
Thick shell and large seed; I dont think there is anything to eat in the fruit.
Photography is prohibited inside the park. Thats why I am not able to provide photos of tree and leaves.
Anyway, I will go there again in 2 - 3 weeks and will definitely take some photos.

Chances are there that it is D. malabarica.

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 07:04:31 AM »
As promised, I am sharing some more pictures.
Is this Diospyros malabarica?








davidgarcia899

  • Marabu Groves - Redland, Florida
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1536
  • Marabu Groves
    • USA, Miami-Dade, 33187, 10b
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 12:04:33 PM »
ya thats not black sapote, was the fruit good?
- David Antonio Garcia

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 01:36:40 PM »
ya thats not black sapote, was the fruit good?
Cut fruit had a nice, mild aroma somewhat similar to that of a Velvet apple.
The thin layer of transcluent flesh around the seeds was mildely sweet. When put in mouth, what came in my mind was eating a Cocoa fruit. But, the flesh didn't separate from the seed.
The flesh under the fruit skin had a nice texture. Though the flesh was mildely sweet, it was a little bit astringent.
In short, the fruit is edible; but, not palatable. I think the fruit will be more suitable for making jams and wine.


vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 07:59:52 PM »
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+diospyros+malabarica&iax=1&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_5FwgtVbpJDo%2FS8WdtB_XA4I%2FAAAAAAAAG_I%2FkviJt-JPdFc%2Fs1600%2FP4140900.JPG
Thank you Oscar, for confirming the identity of the species :).

I have one more query:
Is it possible to graft Diospyros kaki on D. malabarica rootstock, so that the former can be grown in the tropics? And will it flower without chill hours?

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15404
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2015, 11:10:26 PM »
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+diospyros+malabarica&iax=1&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_5FwgtVbpJDo%2FS8WdtB_XA4I%2FAAAAAAAAG_I%2FkviJt-JPdFc%2Fs1600%2FP4140900.JPG
Thank you Oscar, for confirming the identity of the species :).

I have one more query:
Is it possible to graft Diospyros kaki on D. malabarica rootstock, so that the former can be grown in the tropics? And will it flower without chill hours?

I don't know if those 2 species are graft compatible. Don't think using certain rootstock is going to change number of chill hours necessary for fruiting.
Oscar

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2015, 11:19:10 PM »
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+diospyros+malabarica&iax=1&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_5FwgtVbpJDo%2FS8WdtB_XA4I%2FAAAAAAAAG_I%2FkviJt-JPdFc%2Fs1600%2FP4140900.JPG
Thank you Oscar, for confirming the identity of the species :).

I have one more query:
Is it possible to graft Diospyros kaki on D. malabarica rootstock, so that the former can be grown in the tropics? And will it flower without chill hours?

I don't know if those 2 species are graft compatible. Don't think using certain rootstock is going to change number of chill hours necessary for fruiting.
??? Ok, thank you for the information.

AlexRF

  • Subarctic Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
  • Alex
    • Russia, Saint-Petersburg, warmhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2015, 03:10:31 PM »
D. kaki grafting on D. malabarica (or other tropical Diospyros spp) is interesting research idea.
Of course not 100% but some chance there is.
Main issue is:
what part of plant come to dormancy  at first, root system or branches?
If variant 1 is coreect, we have the chance.
Also interesting to hybridizate/crosspolinate tropical and subtropical Diospyros spp.
Tropical Diospyros spp are often deprived of attention because its fruit astringency and small size.
Both problem can be resolved by domestication, breeding and polyploidization
if you have 15-20 years... :)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 03:12:31 PM by AlexRF »
YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2015, 07:55:18 PM »
D. kaki grafting on D. malabarica (or other tropical Diospyros spp) is interesting research idea.
Of course not 100% but some chance there is.
Main issue is:
what part of plant come to dormancy  at first, root system or branches?
If variant 1 is coreect, we have the chance.
Also interesting to hybridizate/crosspolinate tropical and subtropical Diospyros spp.
Tropical Diospyros spp are often deprived of attention because its fruit astringency and small size.
Both problem can be resolved by domestication, breeding and polyploidization
if you have 15-20 years... :)
If the D. malabarica seeds germinate and if I am fortunate to get some D. kaki cuttings in good condition, I will try grafting.
But now I doubts, as Oscar said, if D. kaki will flower in tropics even after grafting on to D. malabarica! Do D. kaki ever flower without chill hours?
Can anybody suggest a non-astringent, self-pollinating, low chill D. kaki variety?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 11:30:43 PM by vipinrl »

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15404
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2015, 08:52:30 PM »
D. kaki grafting on D. malabarica (or other tropical Diospyros spp) is interesting research idea.
Of course not 100% but some chance there is.
Main issue is:
what part of plant come to dormancy  at first, root system or branches?
If variant 1 is coreect, we have the chance.
Also interesting to hybridizate/crosspolinate tropical and subtropical Diospyros spp.
Tropical Diospyros spp are often deprived of attention because its fruit astringency and small size.
Both problem can be resolved by domestication, breeding and polyploidization
if you have 15-20 years... :)
If the D. malabarica seeds germinate and if I am fortunate to get some D. kaki cuttings in good condition, I will try grafting.
But now I doubts, as Oscar said, if D. kaki will flower in tropics even after grafting on to D. malabarica! Do D. kaki ever flower without chill hours?
Can anybody suggest a non-astringent, self-pollinating, low chill D. kaki variety?

Yes there are some types of kaki persimmon that can fruit with little or no chill. If you do a search on this forum you can see names of the cultivars. I think most are astringent types. One is Triumph, but forget the other ones.
Oscar

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2015, 10:58:55 PM »
Dear Oscar, thank you for the valuable information.

Sorry, but I have 1 more question:
Is it true that birds usually avoid astringent varieties?

AlexRF

  • Subarctic Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
  • Alex
    • Russia, Saint-Petersburg, warmhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2015, 10:21:35 AM »
If you place almost ripen but a little astringent Diospyros fruits to refrigerator (1-4 Celsius),
after one day astringency will disappear.
YES WE SCAN NEW TROPICAL FRUITS

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: Please identify this Diospyros species for me
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2015, 12:38:01 PM »
If you place almost ripen but a little astringent Diospyros fruits to refrigerator (1-4 Celsius),
after one day astringency will disappear.
Actually, I am yet to grow a Persimmon tree as I live in the tropics.
From the very little information I got from the internet, I always wanted to grow non-astringent varieties only.
But you and Oscar made me to think about the other option also :).

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers