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Author Topic: Asiminaholics Anonymous  (Read 52245 times)

Bartacomus

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #275 on: October 22, 2019, 08:53:29 AM »
Do PawPaw graft well?  I started my KSU seeds this year.. i wouldnt call them vigorous. But, theres no place to get fruit around here. 9a Texas.

i know this goes against the Fruiting Tree prime directive.. but it breaks my heart having to wait a decade to eat my own fruits.



While on the subject.. i just wanted to say im a tropical and fruiting tree 13th stepper......... (<--- joke)

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #276 on: October 22, 2019, 02:46:15 PM »
I can't compare grafting pawpaw to grafting other trees because pawpaw is all i've ever done.

But as a pretty big novice, I'd say they graft well. Nothing is going to be 100%.

Scions are collected late winter and folks tell me that grafting is best done when temps are reliably in the 80s (here that equates to May).

There are some who suggest pawpaw grafts are shorter-lived than I guess other trees. Maybe only 15 years or something. But I honestly don't know.

There is also controversy about how likely you are to get good fruit from seedling trees of high quality parents. Some say good/great parents will very likely produce good/great offspring, while others say the odds are low. I tend to think the odds are good. But grafting is the only way to guarantee high quality. And there is definitely a huge difference between poor wild fruit (some wild trees are great) and named varieties.

Bartacomus

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #277 on: October 22, 2019, 03:51:37 PM »

 id never considered that a graft could have a shorter life span. certainly as short as 15 years. But at the same time.. in random conditions 8 years to fruit, kinda makes it worthwhile.

my seedlings are like 5 inches tall at best.. and raised in spring :(  kinda stunted.

Have you ever gotten scion wood to root? (instead of grafting)

(i also have them confused with sugar apples.. they damn near look identical.  one has silvery underleaf. and one has a brown stem, the other green. i dont know which)

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #278 on: October 22, 2019, 04:15:47 PM »
I've had several PawPaw trees longer than 15 years.
From them a grafted PawPaw 'Prima1216' has been in use for about 5 years now and is declining more and more.
Two other grafted PawPaw 'Sunflower' are still vigorous, and you don't notice that they are grafted plants.
Another PawPaw 'Rusterholz', which I have cut back several times (to almost arm-thick branches), is taking care of for a few years and is about to die.

As for confusing Paw Paw and Cherimoya seedlings, I'm happy to post pictures for clarity. Cherimoya seedlings are very hairy on the underside of the leaves, and the new shoots are whitish due to the white hair. Paw Paw seedlings have barely palpable and visible hair on the underside of the leaves and the shoots are brownish. 

Concerning the sprouting of cuttings: I have tried several times with PawPAw, but never succeeded. PawPaw doesn't seem to want to form callus, unlike apples or citrus. Compared to dulling apples, cherries, citrus,

PawPaw seems for me more difficult to graft, but it is possible. You have to work more precisely as with the other mentioned, because callus formation is not as fast and as good as with citrus or apple etc., is my insight
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2019, 06:55:09 PM »
This is the discussion i was referring to regarding the lifespan of grafted trees.
I just stumbled upon it the other day.
Just for informational purposes
https://growingfruit.org/t/pawpaw-people-weigh-in/5405/67

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #280 on: October 23, 2019, 03:22:36 AM »
Thanks for this link to the other really interesting forum!

On the subject of the non-hazardousness of grafting / death of grafting plants: I think it also depends on how well the grafting has been done and how well it has grown together. As I said, I have over 15 years with me already growing grafted PawPaw trees, where no problems are to be found, and some, where problems are to be seen, but which have already died. But I don't know what it looked like with the roots. As a rule, grafted plants did not grow in the place where they stand for the rest of their lives. In other words, the roots had either grown very narrowly in the beginning or had even been damaged during transplanting, in some cases also the tap root. And we are not yet talking about possible root damage by fungi, damage by animals and the resulting rot.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

SeaWalnut

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #281 on: October 29, 2019, 11:10:43 PM »
All grafted trees have a short lifespan ,not only the paw paws.
Comercial grafted walnuts live up to 25-30 years compared to a walnut grown from seed that can live up to 400 years and 100 its common.
But the paw paws rootstock should be sending suckers and that might not mean you loose the tree but only the grafted part.
Maybe the rootstock can make great fruits also.

W.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #282 on: October 31, 2019, 03:16:57 AM »
Considering the propensity for pawpaws to form clonal colonies and the apparently variable results of grafting, I do not understand why more propagation from root suckers is not undertaken. I know that there are far more branches than root suckers, and it is certainly much easier to clip those branches off than to dig a big hole, but still. There is enough interest being shown in superior pawpaw varieties that I am sure some growers would be willing to pay a higher price to get those varieties, on their own roots, au naturel if you will, without having to worry about graft compatibility or short lifespans.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #283 on: October 31, 2019, 08:53:50 AM »
Considering the propensity for pawpaws to form clonal colonies and the apparently variable results of grafting, I do not understand why more propagation from root suckers is not undertaken. I know that there are far more branches than root suckers, and it is certainly much easier to clip those branches off than to dig a big hole, but still. There is enough interest being shown in superior pawpaw varieties that I am sure some growers would be willing to pay a higher price to get those varieties, on their own roots, au naturel if you will, without having to worry about graft compatibility or short lifespans.

I am the first to assert that there aren't many absolutes in the world of plants; however, from my own experience with bare-root pawpaws (which were field-grown) and from anecdotes all over the internet and "literature," I don't think root-sucker propagation with pawpaws is a viable alternative to grafting. The trees just do not tolerate such violence  ;)
Not to mention, you would have to go back to the original mother-tree for the sucker to be "on its own roots." Suckers from a grafted tree, of course, are clones of the rootstock, not the graft.

However- as for alternatives to grafting - there are folks out there researching tissue culture and other modes of propagation with pawpaw, but with little to no success so far (per presentations at 2016 International Pawpaw Conference).

SeaWalnut

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #284 on: October 31, 2019, 09:07:10 AM »
Tissue culture its not verry far from grafting when it comes to lifespan of trees.Even if the tree will be on its own roots,it will still die younger ( but there is a trick here,you can cut the tree to the ground once in 15-20 years and that way it can live forever,be immortal ).
Because the paw paws have a long taproot and they dont tranplant well ,they are not sold as suckers.

W.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #285 on: October 31, 2019, 07:00:20 PM »
Quote
I am the first to assert that there aren't many absolutes in the world of plants; however, from my own experience with bare-root pawpaws (which were field-grown) and from anecdotes all over the internet and "literature," I don't think root-sucker propagation with pawpaws is a viable alternative to grafting. The trees just do not tolerate such violence  ;)

When I first became interested in pawpaws and started reading about them a few years ago, I too read that growing pawpaws from root suckers varied in difficulty somewhere between impossible and nearly impossible. But, I tend to do things a little differently from everyone else and had discovered a clonal colony near my house, so I decided to attempt the impossible and transplant a sucker from that colony to my yard. Because I was impatient, to add to the difficulty I did this in the middle of August, in Alabama, the worst time and place to dig up and transplant anything. So, I went down to the clonal colony and selected the smallest sucker I could find, around 9" tall with six leaves. I dug a 2' in diameter, roughly 9" to 12" deep plug of dirt containing the root sucker. I immediately transplanted it into my yard, in a spot that receives full morning sun and dappled afternoon light. I watered it twice a day until the end of September. Despite the heat, it never showed any signs of transplant shock; it in fact showed the opposite and grew slightly in the next two months. I think there was such a large amount of roots in that large plug of dirt that it did not realize that it had been transplanted. That was in 2016. By the end of the 2017 growing season, the tree was 6' tall. By 2018, it was 9' and sending up its own root suckers 6' away from its trunk. It bloomed this spring, less than three years after it had been transplanted.

I have successfully transplanted two more root suckers from the original clonal colony since the first one, both in late spring/early summer of 2017; I did not retain as much dirt and as many roots with those two, and it seems that they "felt" that they had been dug up and moved. They grew very little for a year before starting to shoot up in height.

My point is that I believe that propagating pawpaws from root suckers can be a viable option and one that should be considered by more growers in the future. One of the benefits of growing pawpaws is that, with the exception of their habit of poor fruit set, they are problem-free: hardy, pest-resistant, vigorously-growing, and long-lived (as a colony, individual trees are fairly short-lived). I am not sure why some growers want to bollocks all that up by making pawpaws as fragile and finicky as the other widespread types of temperate fruiting trees.

Quote
Not to mention, you would have to go back to the original mother-tree for the sucker to be "on its own roots." Suckers from a grafted tree, of course, are clones of the rootstock, not the graft.

Agreed, you would have to go to original mother trees for these pawpaw varieties to get root suckers. Considering how recent the creation was for the most popular and acclaimed pawpaw varieties, those mother trees should still exist, in clonal colonies of their own making unless active pruning to prevent such colonies has occurred. Getting access to those trees might be difficult. But, if techniques for transplanting pawpaw root suckers can be perfected enough to create a viable market for the buying and selling of au naturel pawpaw trees, then you will see it start to happen.

And I believe that techniques for transplanting root suckers can be developed and perfected. I have done it successfully, three out of three times. I guess I am too young and dumb to know that I was not supposed to be able to do that. But, imagine if someone who knows what he/she is doing worked on this method of propagation.

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #286 on: October 31, 2019, 07:14:27 PM »
About 40 years ago, a friend of mine dug up a sucker of a Paw Paw from a Bptanical Garden in Suisse. The interesting thing on this Paw Paw (not grafted!) was that it stand alone and bear reliable fruits, so the origin is a self-fertile seedling.  - this has been the reason for taking a sucker of this tree. This sucker propagated "clone" lives still in perfect condition  even though my friend has cut it several times - due to its growth. By the way, at the new location this sucker-propagated Paw Paw stood without any other pollination partner and has reliably fruited, mostly in pairs. 
From this example, one could assume that sucker-propagated trees seem to be as vital as the original.....
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #287 on: October 31, 2019, 09:08:49 PM »
That’s all really cool stuff. To quote myself, I don’t believe in rigid absolutes. Meaning in this case, sometimes pawpaw suckers or other bareroot pawpaws work great.
I have taken potted pawpaws and up-potted, removing all potting mix. They didn’t die but definitely were stunted temporarily.

To throw more into this conversation, I believe KSU or maybe Ohio State has done research that seemed to suggest minor genetic variances in Clonal pawpaws. You’d have to look on KSU website or talk to their staff.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #288 on: November 25, 2019, 08:34:57 PM »
Not sure what made me think of it, but I’ve been wondering about doing multi-rootstock grafts with pawpaw.

Anyone tried it or have any thoughts about it?

Honestly I don’t really even know specifically what advantages it would have if any. Just sounded fun.

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #289 on: November 26, 2019, 12:02:00 PM »
Interesting thought....I myself have not yet started refining experiments with specifically selected different rootstocks, for example root suckers from different clones. Of course there are weaker or stronger varieties, flowering sooner or later or bearing sooner or later, but to what extent the rootstock communicates this to the grafting is the question. I am already glad, if at all a refinement succeeds to me, is not completely so simple. Maybe KSU has already done research on this, so if someone has a good contact there, he is welcome to ask, I would be interested!
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

 

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