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Author Topic: Asiminaholics Anonymous  (Read 70270 times)

Bartacomus

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #275 on: October 22, 2019, 08:53:29 AM »
Do PawPaw graft well?  I started my KSU seeds this year.. i wouldnt call them vigorous. But, theres no place to get fruit around here. 9a Texas.

i know this goes against the Fruiting Tree prime directive.. but it breaks my heart having to wait a decade to eat my own fruits.



While on the subject.. i just wanted to say im a tropical and fruiting tree 13th stepper......... (<--- joke)

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #276 on: October 22, 2019, 02:46:15 PM »
I can't compare grafting pawpaw to grafting other trees because pawpaw is all i've ever done.

But as a pretty big novice, I'd say they graft well. Nothing is going to be 100%.

Scions are collected late winter and folks tell me that grafting is best done when temps are reliably in the 80s (here that equates to May).

There are some who suggest pawpaw grafts are shorter-lived than I guess other trees. Maybe only 15 years or something. But I honestly don't know.

There is also controversy about how likely you are to get good fruit from seedling trees of high quality parents. Some say good/great parents will very likely produce good/great offspring, while others say the odds are low. I tend to think the odds are good. But grafting is the only way to guarantee high quality. And there is definitely a huge difference between poor wild fruit (some wild trees are great) and named varieties.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #277 on: October 22, 2019, 03:51:37 PM »

 id never considered that a graft could have a shorter life span. certainly as short as 15 years. But at the same time.. in random conditions 8 years to fruit, kinda makes it worthwhile.

my seedlings are like 5 inches tall at best.. and raised in spring :(  kinda stunted.

Have you ever gotten scion wood to root? (instead of grafting)

(i also have them confused with sugar apples.. they damn near look identical.  one has silvery underleaf. and one has a brown stem, the other green. i dont know which)

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #278 on: October 22, 2019, 04:15:47 PM »
I've had several PawPaw trees longer than 15 years.
From them a grafted PawPaw 'Prima1216' has been in use for about 5 years now and is declining more and more.
Two other grafted PawPaw 'Sunflower' are still vigorous, and you don't notice that they are grafted plants.
Another PawPaw 'Rusterholz', which I have cut back several times (to almost arm-thick branches), is taking care of for a few years and is about to die.

As for confusing Paw Paw and Cherimoya seedlings, I'm happy to post pictures for clarity. Cherimoya seedlings are very hairy on the underside of the leaves, and the new shoots are whitish due to the white hair. Paw Paw seedlings have barely palpable and visible hair on the underside of the leaves and the shoots are brownish. 

Concerning the sprouting of cuttings: I have tried several times with PawPAw, but never succeeded. PawPaw doesn't seem to want to form callus, unlike apples or citrus. Compared to dulling apples, cherries, citrus,

PawPaw seems for me more difficult to graft, but it is possible. You have to work more precisely as with the other mentioned, because callus formation is not as fast and as good as with citrus or apple etc., is my insight
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2019, 06:55:09 PM »
This is the discussion i was referring to regarding the lifespan of grafted trees.
I just stumbled upon it the other day.
Just for informational purposes
https://growingfruit.org/t/pawpaw-people-weigh-in/5405/67

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #280 on: October 23, 2019, 03:22:36 AM »
Thanks for this link to the other really interesting forum!

On the subject of the non-hazardousness of grafting / death of grafting plants: I think it also depends on how well the grafting has been done and how well it has grown together. As I said, I have over 15 years with me already growing grafted PawPaw trees, where no problems are to be found, and some, where problems are to be seen, but which have already died. But I don't know what it looked like with the roots. As a rule, grafted plants did not grow in the place where they stand for the rest of their lives. In other words, the roots had either grown very narrowly in the beginning or had even been damaged during transplanting, in some cases also the tap root. And we are not yet talking about possible root damage by fungi, damage by animals and the resulting rot.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

SeaWalnut

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #281 on: October 29, 2019, 11:10:43 PM »
All grafted trees have a short lifespan ,not only the paw paws.
Comercial grafted walnuts live up to 25-30 years compared to a walnut grown from seed that can live up to 400 years and 100 its common.
But the paw paws rootstock should be sending suckers and that might not mean you loose the tree but only the grafted part.
Maybe the rootstock can make great fruits also.

W.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #282 on: October 31, 2019, 03:16:57 AM »
Considering the propensity for pawpaws to form clonal colonies and the apparently variable results of grafting, I do not understand why more propagation from root suckers is not undertaken. I know that there are far more branches than root suckers, and it is certainly much easier to clip those branches off than to dig a big hole, but still. There is enough interest being shown in superior pawpaw varieties that I am sure some growers would be willing to pay a higher price to get those varieties, on their own roots, au naturel if you will, without having to worry about graft compatibility or short lifespans.

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #283 on: October 31, 2019, 08:53:50 AM »
Considering the propensity for pawpaws to form clonal colonies and the apparently variable results of grafting, I do not understand why more propagation from root suckers is not undertaken. I know that there are far more branches than root suckers, and it is certainly much easier to clip those branches off than to dig a big hole, but still. There is enough interest being shown in superior pawpaw varieties that I am sure some growers would be willing to pay a higher price to get those varieties, on their own roots, au naturel if you will, without having to worry about graft compatibility or short lifespans.

I am the first to assert that there aren't many absolutes in the world of plants; however, from my own experience with bare-root pawpaws (which were field-grown) and from anecdotes all over the internet and "literature," I don't think root-sucker propagation with pawpaws is a viable alternative to grafting. The trees just do not tolerate such violence  ;)
Not to mention, you would have to go back to the original mother-tree for the sucker to be "on its own roots." Suckers from a grafted tree, of course, are clones of the rootstock, not the graft.

However- as for alternatives to grafting - there are folks out there researching tissue culture and other modes of propagation with pawpaw, but with little to no success so far (per presentations at 2016 International Pawpaw Conference).

SeaWalnut

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #284 on: October 31, 2019, 09:07:10 AM »
Tissue culture its not verry far from grafting when it comes to lifespan of trees.Even if the tree will be on its own roots,it will still die younger ( but there is a trick here,you can cut the tree to the ground once in 15-20 years and that way it can live forever,be immortal ).
Because the paw paws have a long taproot and they dont tranplant well ,they are not sold as suckers.

W.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #285 on: October 31, 2019, 07:00:20 PM »
Quote
I am the first to assert that there aren't many absolutes in the world of plants; however, from my own experience with bare-root pawpaws (which were field-grown) and from anecdotes all over the internet and "literature," I don't think root-sucker propagation with pawpaws is a viable alternative to grafting. The trees just do not tolerate such violence  ;)

When I first became interested in pawpaws and started reading about them a few years ago, I too read that growing pawpaws from root suckers varied in difficulty somewhere between impossible and nearly impossible. But, I tend to do things a little differently from everyone else and had discovered a clonal colony near my house, so I decided to attempt the impossible and transplant a sucker from that colony to my yard. Because I was impatient, to add to the difficulty I did this in the middle of August, in Alabama, the worst time and place to dig up and transplant anything. So, I went down to the clonal colony and selected the smallest sucker I could find, around 9" tall with six leaves. I dug a 2' in diameter, roughly 9" to 12" deep plug of dirt containing the root sucker. I immediately transplanted it into my yard, in a spot that receives full morning sun and dappled afternoon light. I watered it twice a day until the end of September. Despite the heat, it never showed any signs of transplant shock; it in fact showed the opposite and grew slightly in the next two months. I think there was such a large amount of roots in that large plug of dirt that it did not realize that it had been transplanted. That was in 2016. By the end of the 2017 growing season, the tree was 6' tall. By 2018, it was 9' and sending up its own root suckers 6' away from its trunk. It bloomed this spring, less than three years after it had been transplanted.

I have successfully transplanted two more root suckers from the original clonal colony since the first one, both in late spring/early summer of 2017; I did not retain as much dirt and as many roots with those two, and it seems that they "felt" that they had been dug up and moved. They grew very little for a year before starting to shoot up in height.

My point is that I believe that propagating pawpaws from root suckers can be a viable option and one that should be considered by more growers in the future. One of the benefits of growing pawpaws is that, with the exception of their habit of poor fruit set, they are problem-free: hardy, pest-resistant, vigorously-growing, and long-lived (as a colony, individual trees are fairly short-lived). I am not sure why some growers want to bollocks all that up by making pawpaws as fragile and finicky as the other widespread types of temperate fruiting trees.

Quote
Not to mention, you would have to go back to the original mother-tree for the sucker to be "on its own roots." Suckers from a grafted tree, of course, are clones of the rootstock, not the graft.

Agreed, you would have to go to original mother trees for these pawpaw varieties to get root suckers. Considering how recent the creation was for the most popular and acclaimed pawpaw varieties, those mother trees should still exist, in clonal colonies of their own making unless active pruning to prevent such colonies has occurred. Getting access to those trees might be difficult. But, if techniques for transplanting pawpaw root suckers can be perfected enough to create a viable market for the buying and selling of au naturel pawpaw trees, then you will see it start to happen.

And I believe that techniques for transplanting root suckers can be developed and perfected. I have done it successfully, three out of three times. I guess I am too young and dumb to know that I was not supposed to be able to do that. But, imagine if someone who knows what he/she is doing worked on this method of propagation.

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #286 on: October 31, 2019, 07:14:27 PM »
About 40 years ago, a friend of mine dug up a sucker of a Paw Paw from a Bptanical Garden in Suisse. The interesting thing on this Paw Paw (not grafted!) was that it stand alone and bear reliable fruits, so the origin is a self-fertile seedling.  - this has been the reason for taking a sucker of this tree. This sucker propagated "clone" lives still in perfect condition  even though my friend has cut it several times - due to its growth. By the way, at the new location this sucker-propagated Paw Paw stood without any other pollination partner and has reliably fruited, mostly in pairs. 
From this example, one could assume that sucker-propagated trees seem to be as vital as the original.....
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #287 on: October 31, 2019, 09:08:49 PM »
That’s all really cool stuff. To quote myself, I don’t believe in rigid absolutes. Meaning in this case, sometimes pawpaw suckers or other bareroot pawpaws work great.
I have taken potted pawpaws and up-potted, removing all potting mix. They didn’t die but definitely were stunted temporarily.

To throw more into this conversation, I believe KSU or maybe Ohio State has done research that seemed to suggest minor genetic variances in Clonal pawpaws. You’d have to look on KSU website or talk to their staff.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #288 on: November 25, 2019, 08:34:57 PM »
Not sure what made me think of it, but I’ve been wondering about doing multi-rootstock grafts with pawpaw.

Anyone tried it or have any thoughts about it?

Honestly I don’t really even know specifically what advantages it would have if any. Just sounded fun.

usirius

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #289 on: November 26, 2019, 12:02:00 PM »
Interesting thought....I myself have not yet started refining experiments with specifically selected different rootstocks, for example root suckers from different clones. Of course there are weaker or stronger varieties, flowering sooner or later or bearing sooner or later, but to what extent the rootstock communicates this to the grafting is the question. I am already glad, if at all a refinement succeeds to me, is not completely so simple. Maybe KSU has already done research on this, so if someone has a good contact there, he is welcome to ask, I would be interested!
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Bartacomus

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #290 on: January 07, 2020, 02:21:41 PM »
So we are talking about.. Tissue Rejection.  20 years in the lifespan of hundreds is just a moment.  Some tree injuries take a decade to heal.

what methods do we use to encourage organ acceptance in biology?   does anyone know? if its a basic compound we might be looking at a way to lengthen to life of grafted trees.

how do individual branches go? Those multi citrus trees we see in the news. How do those fare?

TJ_westPA

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #291 on: March 15, 2020, 11:09:52 AM »
There is also controversy about how likely you are to get good fruit from seedling trees of high quality parents. Some say good/great parents will very likely produce good/great offspring, while others say the odds are low. I tend to think the odds are good. But grafting is the only way to guarantee high quality. And there is definitely a huge difference between poor wild fruit (some wild trees are great) and named varieties.

I was reading a bit of this lovely thread and thought I'd share what I know on this issue. I'm in a pawpaw group on facebook and Neal Peterson is also part of that group. When he shares advice, I make note of it lol. At one point someone was looking for recommendations on where to buy seeds and someone responded with the website: nuttrees.net (Cliff England's site) and Neal said this in response: "They have select seed and that is good. I disagree with their statement that the progeny has a 95% chance of equally the parent. The probability is closer to 25%. (In other words the usual commercial hype.)"

I would think Neal would know better than probably anyone else on that topic. That percentage sounds pretty decent to me, higher than I thought it would be. I'm not sure what that percentage would be for other fruits, but it's certainly higher than apples and not as high as stone fruits. Variety does contribute to this as well, since some varieties can give a better chance of good offspring than others (e.g. Golden Delicious). Also, trees that require a pollinator tend to be lower than those that are self-pollinating, so maybe Sunflower and Prima would have a better chance of good offspring than other varieties if they are pollinated by their own flowers.

NateTheGreat

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #292 on: March 15, 2020, 11:37:36 AM »
I was reading a bit of this lovely thread and thought I'd share what I know on this issue. I'm in a pawpaw group on facebook and Neal Peterson is also part of that group. When he shares advice, I make note of it lol. At one point someone was looking for recommendations on where to buy seeds and someone responded with the website: nuttrees.net (Cliff England's site) and Neal said this in response: "They have select seed and that is good. I disagree with their statement that the progeny has a 95% chance of equally the parent. The probability is closer to 25%. (In other words the usual commercial hype.)"

I would think Neal would know better than probably anyone else on that topic.

Keep in mind this is a man who sells grafted trees for a living.

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #293 on: March 15, 2020, 01:33:25 PM »
True.
In the portion of the post TJ quoted from, I was factoring in the same advice from Neal that he’d given me personally.
I was also mixing in opinion from Jerry Lehman and Sheri Crabtree. So, I think it just depends who you ask.

I’ll have some minor data of my own when my seedlings, all from orchards with only named varieties, start bearing.

However, there’s a spot near me with about 20 seeding trees from a commercial nursery. They were probably seeds from named varieties at the nursery. These trees produce mostly pretty large fruit with good texture and flavor. I’ve eaten from them 2 years running. That’s not a long time but the fruit is definitely above average.

Hidden Springs Nursery near me has a selection they call Lehman’s Chiffon, which is a seedling from Jerry’s orchard. A place in Michigan has one they call Super Mario, also a seedling from named parents.
Again, they’re arguably in the business of hype and sales, but i don’t think they were testing 1000s of seedlings like Neal did, just to get these selections.

Neal had mathematically low success in producing open pollinated seedlings if supreme quality, but thanks to him, we have much better germplasm from which to work now.

Jerry also explained to me that pawpaw is not like apples, where they’ve been so deeply bred that open pollination produces inferior fruit.

I’m no expert and certainly no geneticist, so your mileage may vary  ;D
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 01:35:12 PM by Triloba Tracker »

TJ_westPA

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #294 on: March 15, 2020, 06:30:16 PM »
I don't think Neal, himself, sells trees anymore, but he certainly still benefits from the patents on his varieties.

That's pretty cool, Triloba, that you've been able to get advice from Jerry, Neal, and Sherri. Some of the most knowledgeable pawpaw people in the business.

Maybe it's easy enough nowadays to get good tasting and good textured fruit from seed, so other criteria may be a more important focus. It definitely seems like KSU is focused on breeding pawpaws that are particularly productive. Chappell seems to have so many good qualities going for it: productive, vigorous grower, great taste, great texture, large fruit, low percent seed. Vigorous growth is undoubtedly a nice trait to have with pawpaws.

Anyone have opinions on what traits they'd like to see breeders focus on more with pawpaws?

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #295 on: March 15, 2020, 08:16:44 PM »
Anyone have opinions on what traits they'd like to see breeders focus on more with pawpaws?

Here’s a list a well-known pawpaw man sent me a while ago:

1. reduce the amount of nausea reaction (not understood yet)
2. improve shelf life (I don't really like the term, but it is what it is)
3. reduce the bruising reaction (without impairing flavor)
4. thicker skins (obvious why, but don't hurt flavor)
5. reduce the fungi that discolor the skin
6. find a range of new colors for flesh and skin
7. develop a color-break (the skin changes color when it is ready to be picked from the tree)
8. find types that can grow further north, in cooler summers


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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #296 on: March 16, 2020, 12:52:19 PM »


Here’s a list a well-known pawpaw man sent me a while ago:

1. reduce the amount of nausea reaction (not understood yet)
2. improve shelf life (I don't really like the term, but it is what it is)
3. reduce the bruising reaction (without impairing flavor)
4. thicker skins (obvious why, but don't hurt flavor)
5. reduce the fungi that discolor the skin
6. find a range of new colors for flesh and skin
7. develop a color-break (the skin changes color when it is ready to be picked from the tree)
8. find types that can grow further north, in cooler summers

That's a great list.
1 will definitely take a good bit of time and research to figure out but is pretty important (imo) to figure out.
2,3,4&5 would all be great for improving their storage, shipping, and getting them into more markets.
I'm wondering if the phyllosticta issue will be show up in my orchard at some point. I never noticed it on any of the wild fruits in my region, but I live at the northern edge of their range where the population is sparse and patches of trees tend to be fairly isolated from other patches. I did notice some on some of the fruit at a festival near Lancaster, PA in 2018. I also wonder if it's more of an issue in the south vs further north.
6 is something I'd be pretty interested in, especially deeper orange colored pulp. There are some white fleshed varieties out there.
7 seems pretty doable since there are several varieties that apparently due this to some degree.
8 I know a lot of people would love this. From what I've read, it seems like the earliest variety might be Kentucky Champion. Maybe Summer
   Delight or Halvin, but Cliff England lists 3 of his varieties to be the "earliest" (KY Champion), or "first to ripen" (Summer Delight), or "3 weeks
   earlier than all others" (Halvin) so I'm skeptical about his assessments.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #297 on: March 16, 2020, 01:11:58 PM »
but Cliff England lists 3 of his varieties to be the "earliest" (KY Champion), or "first to ripen" (Summer Delight), or "3 weeks
   earlier than all others" (Halvin) so I'm skeptical about his assessments.
I sadly agree with this  :o

The nausea thing to me is an elephant in the room. As someone who hopes to sell or at least share lots of fruit in the future, this worries me.
I asked Neal once how he addressed or didn't address this when he was selling at the DC farmers market years ago. Basically he said (IIRC) he didn't directly address it but rather advised to treat it like any new food and don't dive in. Apparently there is also an outright allergy to pawpaws, not just nausea. I had a fella who grew up in WV tell me as a kid he ate one and his head swelled up like a balloon.
I have personally gotten sick twice from pawpaws. The first time i brought a bunch of fruit home from KSU and made blender ice cream. Got quite sick. A couple years later I ate a small wild fruit and got much less nauseated but still did. Last year thankfully I was nausea-free! 
My belief is that the fruit has to be picked at the right time. If picked too early, it may increase chances of nausea even if allowed to ripen a while on the counter. But, those KSU fruits that made me sick were off the ground (however, those could've been knocked out prematurely by wind or tractors).

On the phyllosticta - unfortunately this has seemingly become a bigger issue over time. KSU and other large scale plantings I read last year were hit very hard by it. Even my young trees had a little of it last year, but more concerning is Diplocarpon, or black spot, which seems to be somewhat of a new fungal pest. I have that too.
There is one wild patch i visit that has phyllosticta. Another about half a mile across the field doesn't.
TJ - I hope you can stay immune to the fungi as long as possible!

Definitely the idea that pawpaw is disease-free is just not true, at least any more.

I also like the idea of novel flesh or skin colors. How cool would a red-fleshed pawpaw be?!?!
There are some pawpaws - not necessarily every fruit from the tree - that will turn golden yellow. I have a picture I snapped of one next to a banana. Same color. But this was a few days off the tree, and other fruits from the same tree didn't do it. Peaceful Heritage nursery has a "golden moon" pawpaw with apparently similar tendency (talk about a hype-factory, though)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 01:29:46 PM by Triloba Tracker »

TJ_westPA

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #298 on: March 16, 2020, 06:29:03 PM »
I'd like to sell fruit in the future as well, so anytime I hear about someone getting really nauseous from pawpaws, I start to feel nervous. I wonder if KSU is doing any research on that. I've never experienced any nausea from pawpaws myself, fortunately. No one I've given them to has either, that I know of. I haven't done that much experimenting with them, though. I've made pawpaw bread once, a pie once, salsa once, mixed into ice cream, and smoothies. I'd experiment more if I had access to more good pawpaws. I get plenty of wild ones each year but those almost always have some bitterness to them, which tends to readily transfer to most things I make with them. I don't think there was any bitterness in the bread, but I could hardly taste the pawpaw flavor itself lol.
The dehydration thing is weird too. Obviously fully dehydrating them is a bad idea, but it's hard to tell with baked goods. Some people seem to have had issues with cookies or bread, but most cases seem fine. Maybe in those cases the pulp got rancid somehow before baking? idk lol
You may be right about nausea being caused by picking them too early. I know I've heard that from someone else as well.

Yeah, they definitely aren't disease-free but still have relatively few disease and pest issues compared to other fruits. I've had less issues with my pawpaws than any other fruits I grow, especially with the stupid SWD problem with berries and figs. >.<

A red fleshed pawpaw would be awesome lol. I wouldn't hope for more than deep orange, but who knows what's possible.

That's pretty impressive to find one that was that yellow. I've never seen any with a color change. Yes, I've seen the variety at Peaceful Heritage. They really do hype up every variety they have lol. I have to stop myself from reading the descriptions of their fruit since they make every variety sound amazing and like a must-have. I bought a Chappell and Benson from them a few years ago. They were small but looked pretty healthy and I like that they used deep pots. I tried to buy another Benson and a Tallahatchie from them last year, but on the day they restocked their pawpaws they sold out of almost all of them in like 30 mins. I couldn't even access the site for 15 mins because there was so much traffic that it wouldn't load. By the time I got on, half of the varieties were gone. I think a lot of pawpaw people found out about them last year or the year before and it caused some hype. I know people mentioned them on some of the pawpaw facebook groups several times. I think they were the first supplier of Chappell back in 2017 before it was named, which is when I bought it. I don't think the other nurseries had it in stock until spring of 2018.

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Re: Asiminaholics Anonymous
« Reply #299 on: March 16, 2020, 09:15:30 PM »
The time i got really sick, i could've also gotten some skin or possibly a small "microseed".....a friend of mine showed me a fruit with a tiny failed seed that could be easily missed if processing a large number of fruits and especially if blending them, making the seed digestible versus passable.

I have also not heard back from friends that they've gotten sick from fruits I gave them. Who knows. I would think it could be related to the acetogenin content.

I want to one day try dehydrating slices of pawpaw. I know it's supposed to be instant pukefest if you dehydrate them, but it seems like it would be such a wonderful treat to have a dried slice of pawpaw. I just need a dehydrator.

Here's that picture I mentioned before:






 

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