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Author Topic: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid  (Read 3023 times)

TriangleJohn

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Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« on: April 15, 2015, 09:15:55 AM »
Some of you may recall that last year I had one branch of one of my Asimina triloba trees flower late in the summer. All four of my trees had flowered and fruited like normal but this one also had one branch flower again in August (and the flowers were on top of the branch and facing upward, which is odd). At the same time my Cherimoya tree was flowering in the greenhouse. I attempted to hand pollinate flowers on both trees. I had been told that Pawpaw needed an unrelated cross in order to fruit and since no other pawpaws were flowering at that time I assumed any fruit produced would be a result of the Cherimoya pollen. I had hoped that the Cherimoya would make fruit since it is indoors and protected from cold, thinking that a hybrid between them would not be winter hardy. Well the pawpaw did set fruit and I sowed the seeds and kept them isolated from any pawpaw seeds that I also sowed. Of the 6 seeds only two sprouted and one of them died almost immediately after sprouting. The lone survivor is doing well but growing slow (which is normal at this stage). I had hoped that the non-crossed pawpaw seeds would also sprout so that I could evaluate their leaves to determine if I indeed have a cross but so far none of them have emerged. I've been told that because their chromosome count is different that they more than likely did not cross and that this plant is a solid pawpaw. I've also been told that the local university can't do any sort of analysis on the tissues to determine if it is a cross. So the only thing I can do at this point is watch it grow and hope it appears different than a solid pawpaw.




nullzero

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 04:21:39 PM »
Keep us updated, even if its most likely not a cherimoya cross its always interesting to watch a seedling progress.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

shaneatwell

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 10:39:23 PM »
Very cool. Good luck!

Are they graft compatible?
Shane

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 03:07:21 AM »
Did the supposed hybrid seeds look any different than  the pawpaw seeds?

TriangleJohn

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 10:20:19 AM »
The fruit was smaller and the seeds were smaller and rounder. Still flat, but more of a perfect circle than the long stretched out shape of a pawpaw seed. The branch that bloomed twice last year is blooming and setting fruit now. I'll keep an eye on it to see if it reblooms again this year. The Cherimoya is started to wake up from its winter nap and it is developing flower buds. I need to really pay attention to it this year and try harder to hand pollinate it.

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2018, 06:19:55 AM »
Helo John, can you tell us, how this seedling did grow and if you can see any differences to a "normal" Paw Paw plant and to a "normal" Cherimoya plant? This would be very interesting for me also! Because I am also working on creating such an hybrid. I had stored Asimina triloba pollen in an refrigerator. At time my Chermioyas begin to bloom, and i am working to pollinate the flowers with Asimina pollen. Enclosed you will find a picture of my pollinating trial. One pollinated flower has fallen down but I think that I pollinated it too early - before female stage. Some more flowers will develop in the next days so I am hoping that I will get results. I will keep you informed about my success!

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Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 04:40:08 PM »
For informational purposes only:
Folks have tried crossing pawpaw with its tropical relatives before, if i'm not mistaken. Possibly as far back as Fairchild, Zimmerman...and possibly even Bill Whitman (I know he tried growing pawpaw but not sure about hybridizing).
Neal Peterson of eminent pawpaw fame has focused on Asimina inter-specific crosses and I believe had tried Annona crosses unsuccessfully prior to that (could be wrong on that).

To me the pawpaw is so unique and different from Annona species, i'm not sure what the goals of crossing would be. (legitimate question, not snark) :)

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2018, 04:44:42 AM »
Hello Triloba Tracker,

thanks for your comments and suggestions. I agree with you, there is not much chance of success, but who knows. I also researched a lot of literature and read testimonials on the subject, and everything I've read does not sound optimistic. But I mean, tasting is about studying. Certainly I have other individuals, live in another part of the world and certainly do not work in everything with the same parameters as all those who have already tried ... What motivates me is that I can already think of many things without much thought For example, the hybridization of Poncirus trifoliata with Citrus ichangensis, with Poncirus trifoliata as the parent plant, which was absolutely impossible according to literature research at the time .... it worked for me right away! Yes, the breeding goals you've been asking for, or the motivation to hybridize Annona and Asimina are the following - actually, I'd like to tweak some of Cherimoya's drawbacks:

- Cherimoya is subtropical, but not particularly cold tolerant. According to experience, light frosts are already causing massive damage to her. A hybrid could be a bit more cold-tolerant, but still suitable for warm climates (the pure Asimina develops poorly, it is poor in warm to hot regions)
- Cherimoya has a lot of seeds, but Paw Paw has few compared to the fruit mass, and there are also Paw Paw varieties that have very few seeds, taken as a parent ... .. A hybrid of both could be a kind of cranimoya with wizened cores
- The aroma of both parents is interesting in itself, in the mix, the Armoma could be a very special!
- Cherimoya has a relatively soft and sensitive skin, Asimina has a slightly more stable and pressure-sensitive consistency.
- Asimina has a clean separation of style and fear, even when ripe, she falls to the separation, and there is no hole in the fruit, which even when harvested to full maturity still allows a relatively long shelf life of the fruit. On the other hand, cherimoya dissolves from the stalk at full maturity, creating a crater-like wound in fear, from which mold and rot quickly spread, and spoil the fruit. A hybrid could have a smaller separation between style and fruit like cherimoya ....
- Pollination of Asimina-like flowers is easier for insects by the exposure of the inner flower parts, especially the female part, as pollination of the very closed female Cherimoya flower. A hybrid of both could have relatively exposed internal flower parts that are readily accessible to insects.
- last not least ... .The hybrid could be a cold-compatible pad for cherimoya, or you could ennoble these hybrids in addition to Asimina to grow as a hybrid in colder areas, or they as Zwischenveredlung (adapter) to then on to Cherimoya ennoble, also to culture in colder areas.

Maybe there are other arguments, but the mentioned ones motivate me anyway enough and enough to work on the hybrid. I've had it in my head for a long time, never done it, but after reading all that was written about it, I decided ....
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Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 08:29:38 AM »
I absolutely think you should do whatever you are driven to do! As we say, "there's a first time for everything."

Do you have mature Asimina triloba trees of your own? Or where are you getting your pollen?

I would quibble with a few of the things you mentioned about Asimina triloba:
1) If the fruit falls on its own, there will be a "scar" - a hole in the skin and slight indentation in the flesh. The fruit definitely does not have a clean separation like a mango or apple or pear. It can be cut at the peduncle to avoid this, but not if the fruit is in a cluster or if you are harvesting a lot of fruit.
2) The skin is actually usually quite thin and fragile. From the cherimoyas i've eaten, the cherimoya skin is much, much thicker and tougher than pawpaw
3) short shelf-life of pawpaw is considered one of its major drawbacks. I would say it's about the same as cherimoya, possibly worse.
4) i think a comparison of seed-to-flesh ratio of pawpaw and cherimoya would be interesting. Pawpaw is considered pretty "seedy" except for a few varieties particularly from Neal Peterson. Cherimoyas do have a lot of seeds, in a sense, but they are small and easily avoided. Pawpaw seeds are a little more annoying.

Take care!!

starch

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2018, 09:44:09 AM »

4) i think a comparison of seed-to-flesh ratio of pawpaw and cherimoya would be interesting. Pawpaw is considered pretty "seedy" except for a few varieties particularly from Neal Peterson. Cherimoyas do have a lot of seeds, in a sense, but they are small and easily avoided. Pawpaw seeds are a little more annoying.

Take care!!

It's funny because it is all relative. After eating lots of sugar apples that have *tons* of seeds, I don't think cherimoyas are all that seedy! It all depends on your basis of view :)
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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2018, 12:10:27 PM »

4) i think a comparison of seed-to-flesh ratio of pawpaw and cherimoya would be interesting. Pawpaw is considered pretty "seedy" except for a few varieties particularly from Neal Peterson. Cherimoyas do have a lot of seeds, in a sense, but they are small and easily avoided. Pawpaw seeds are a little more annoying.

Take care!!

It's funny because it is all relative. After eating lots of sugar apples that have *tons* of seeds, I don't think cherimoyas are all that seedy! It all depends on your basis of view :)

Agree!
Thats why seed to weight/flesh ratios would be interesting to compare.
For example Neal Petersons Susquehanna pawpaw he reports only 3% seed by total weight. Thats considered very low (good).

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2018, 05:05:41 PM »
@all: Thanks for your replies and thoughts!

@Triloba Tracker
to 1) I agree with you that with Paw Paw, when it is ripe from the tree, a small scar is formed, but for a long time there is no wound as big as that of the Cherimoya, when the fruit is fully ripe and trapped by gravity, the stem becomes full Fruit marc ripped from the middle of the fruit when it falls from the tree. Here are a few photos that show how small the wound is when Paw Paws fall from the tree. There is nothing left behind, and the fear has a small wound that dries quickly, and nothing bad at the fruit happens in the next days. while at same time a Chermioya fruit will begin rottenn and smudges at her great wound and the fruit soon spoils ....all happens after it falls fully ripe from the tree. Of course, you can trim them immature on the stem, but fruits ripened on the tree are more valuable in terms of better flavor.
Regarding 2) The Paw Paw strains I have and the Cherimoya strains that I have are the other way round, it is quite a skin resistant to pressure and injury to Paw Paw and quite sensitive and sensitive to the skin of Cherimoya , It may be that there are varietal differences regarding the stability of the skin in both Paw Paw and Cherimoya.
to 3) I have experienced that Paw Paws harder if they fall from tree like Cherimoyas, probably because of 1)
to 4) Definitely there are some - and also non-Petersen - varieties, which fruits show little number of seeds and much flesch. The best I have is Prima 1216, an Italien breed. As a rule, the fruit is no longer like 6-7 seeds, and the fruits are also huge!
In addition, Paw Paw quickly finished when you cut the fruits along, you pull out the manageable number of cores, as they are usually all sees and finds, and can spoon out the rest. At Cherimoya, the core quest does not stop until the fruit is finished .... it's really annoying! A hybrid of both might have a smaller number of nuclei like Chermioaya.











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Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2018, 05:29:27 PM »
I agree and all excellent points!
Great pictures.

How long have you been growing pawpaw? Would like to hear more about your trees, etc

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2018, 05:34:52 PM »
Hi, to your question - for 25 years I am growing Paw Paws now! Yes, we can Keep in contact of course!
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Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2018, 06:15:24 PM »
That's awesome!

yes feel free to send me a message.. also it might be nice to hear about your pawpaws, in general, over on the "asiminaholics anonymous" thread...

Triphal

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 08:26:16 PM »
Since September 5, I have been picking and plucking over hundred (100) fruits a day average. Only about 30 left in the trees now. I have planted 3 grafted trees 'clumped or packed within 12 feet! One each of Pennsylvania, Susquehanna and Sunflower about 8 or 9 years ago. Last year we had more fruits,so didn't expect much this year.
The seeds are very light but  bulky. And Neal Peterson's " seeds are 3% of the fruit" is unintentionally misleading. By volume I feel seed to pulp ratio is about 55 to 45. Most (over 95%) of our harvest was distributed to friends. If we mulch generously and keep the under brush heavy, fruits will have less injury. We are about 4 to 5 miles away from the closest river. But a stream connecting that river is only half a mile away from our property. Our well is about 200 feet deep and the water table is about 125'. We had a dozen of almost 6" long fruits! But in general fruits of variable sizes from one and a half inches(very few) to 5". They are all delicious.
Early yellowish change in the color and fullness at the stalk  and sometimes small insects floating around and of course the smell are signs to harvest. But the trees are about 35 feet tall and it is hard to harvest most of them by hand without using a ladder. As soon as you harvest keep it in the refrigerator in the garage.

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2018, 05:05:31 PM »
Thank you for sharing your experiences here with us. I can confirm much of what you have done. The repeatedly stated small appearing ratio of the seeds to the rest of the fruit is actually misleading! The weight of the seeds is relative to their volume very light and much lighter than the pulp of the fruit. I can confirm that about 50%, with some varieties it is a little better. The best variety is Prima 1216, an Italian selection, it has not only a better ratio of semen volume to fruit volume, but few kernels, at most only 5-7 kernels per fruit, which are quickly found and removed. The kernels are slightly larger than at other paw paw varieties, but as I said, they are quickly found and removed due to the low number of pieces! So the food of the fruit is not so tedious and it makes more joy. To taste, I find all varieties good.

Interesting what you wrote to determine the fruit ripeness. I have not noticed the colouration of the string in the direction of yellow, but now that you've written it, I notice ...... you're right! Of course, the smell is an unmistakable sign, and those that grow close to the ground, where I carefully test whether they detach themselves from the stalk, because I like them most when they fall fully ripe from the tree. Only if they actually fall, and land on the ground, then they can be damaged, and worse, come with me from time to time also snails and eat them. For many years now, I have been attaching small nets to the respective branch for particularly large and beautiful fruits, which actually come as waste from fruits and vegetables from the supermarket. The ripe fruit then falls into the net and remains undamaged and unreachable for Schnecken! I attach a photo to it. This year, for a test, I stretched a net under a tree into which the ripe fruit could fall. It has proven itself. It is less work and if you check it several times a day, it does not or rarely happens that one fruit falls on another fruit. Of course, the net has to be fastened in several places and supported in the free areas more than soft. Attached also a photo of the net that has just caught a fruit.

This year, I harvested every few fruits and passed them on ... I usually weighed between 80 and 170 grams. Some (few) were smaller, some were a bit bigger. Since we had a hot, dry summer, about 50% of the fruit fell off in July and partly in August, the kernels were still light, the flesh was not finished yet, you could not eat it ... but it still existed still enough ripe fruit now in September. I've been harvesting Paw Paws for three weeks, but now all the fruit has been harvested. I have also distributed some in the circle of acquaintances. Also some that you have not known. Almost everyone is excited. Only one said he did not taste it, it's the consistency of the flesh that's not his case. But he also does not like cherimoyas .... I'll sit with you for the storage of the fruits, a cool place helps to extend the shelf life, but still, I like the most ripe ones from the tree when the shell is getting dark , and then the taste changes, I think they are not that great anymore, but they are eaten anyway!







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usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2018, 04:53:30 PM »
Update: One of the Cherimoya  flowers which I have pollinated with Asimina pollen set fruit. I am not to 100% sure that it is only pollinated with Asimina pollen, it could also be pollinated with pollen of Cherimoya. Nevertheless.... the Asimina pollen has been the first who could have pollinated the flower....Now we will wait - hoping that the fruit will get ripe add not fall down unripe.

And now I am collecting some Chermimoya pollen to pollinate some Asimina flowers next spring;-) Because Imy Cherimoya plant is small and have only few flowers I try to collect any pollen possible with a little plastic box which I have fastened below the flower a short time bevor switching into the male mode.






« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 05:25:47 PM by usirius »
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KarenRei

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2018, 08:11:44 PM »
And now I am collecting some Chermimoya pollen to pollinate some Asimina flowers next spring;-)

You expect it to be viable for that long?
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usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2018, 03:37:47 PM »
@Karen: Yes, I do. Commercial growers of Cherimoya are soring the pollen of Cherimoya in the refrigerator to be able to pollinate flowers sometime later. I will kepp the pollen frozen by -25 F until next spring for pollinating Asimina flowers with it.
Maybe I will make a test next year for visbility.....and take some of this pollen for seeing the result when pollinating Cherimoya flowers with it....
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TriangleJohn

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 07:58:00 PM »
usirius - do you get any natural pollination on cherimoya? I have to hand pollinate my flowers, the local insects ignore them.

I still have two of the possible hybrids. They have been very slow growing which is typical for pawpaws under my care. I have had them outside in pots this fall but my drag them into the greenhouse to save them from harsh winter weather. The leaves look just like pawpaw leaves so I doubt they are hybrids.

For years I collected and sowed seeds for my pawpaws but now I simply wait for a very rainy day in the middle of the winter after the suckers around the parent trees have gone dormant and I simply pull the suckers out of the ground. They snap off of the mother plant's root with a sort of an elbow shape and often one tiny fragile root. I pot them up with standard potting soil and leave in a sheltered area. They sprout in the spring and usually start growing very fast. I plant them in the ground after one full year in a pot (to get maximum root growth). Some of these transplants even flower and fruit while still very small. This method is much better than seed growing for me.

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2018, 08:12:30 AM »
Thats really interesting, TJ. Goes against everything Ive read about near-impossibility of transplanting or especially starting from a sucker.
Of course, that means precisely nothing! There are few absolutes in this business . Obviously its working for you!

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2018, 03:22:24 AM »
@ TT/TJ: Most of my PawPaws are breeded varieties. Only one tree produces suckers. Only one has started last year to make root shoots. I let them grow first, they are still small. Usually I either buy grafted plants or I even refine sorts that are not or hardly available for sale. For example, I have a variety that is self-pollinating, but is not both the Prima1216 variety and the Sunflower variety. Refining is a bit tricky, you have to refine dormant material to driving documents at the right time. With a bit of luck, that will work. Rooting of vines, which is not a problem with other fruit trees such as citrus, apples, berry bushes and so on, I have not made at Paw Paws yet. -  @ TJ: To your question, whether pollinating insects Paw Paws with me: Once this actually worked without any help from me, but usually I have to dust by hand to get fruit. For the PawPaws this took a while until the insects learned it here, the Paw Paw is not homey here. But now they know it, and have probably "inherited" the learned knowledge to their offspring, every year more and more flies, small insects and different beetles such as rose beetle or wood beetle come. - The mention of the mentioned me asimina pollen pollinated flower blossom has formed a fruiting body, which is still on the plant, see attached picture, it is now about the size of a cherry. 12 hours later, after pollination with Asimina pollen, I dusted up with cherimoya pollen ... to make sure that the fruit does not fall off ... so some kernels could actually have Asimina as father ... it remains exciting. In the spring I will pollinate in turn, frozen cherimoya pollen on asimina flowers. I will report.


« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 02:52:04 PM by usirius »
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