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Author Topic: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid  (Read 4448 times)

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2019, 06:15:12 AM »
Thank you for sharing your interesting experiences by using mailed pollen. I cannot imagine that normally stored Asimina or Cherimoya pollen will survive for more than two or three days and than still be able to pollinate flowers. I pollinated a cherimoya flower with asimina pollen stored in a freidge. I hope that the fruit of the result does include hybridisized seeds. The fruit has growed to a big fruit in the meantime, I will upload a picture later. From the flowering Cherimoya I stored some pollen frozen in my fridge. In some days my Asiminia plants (I will take the varieties Sunflower or Prima1216 ) will start to bloom and than I will pollinate some flower with Cherimoya pollen and mark them. I give updates as soon as there are any news.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2019, 12:52:16 PM »
Thank you for sharing your interesting experiences by using mailed pollen. I cannot imagine that normally stored Asimina or Cherimoya pollen will survive for more than two or three days and than still be able to pollinate flowers. I pollinated a cherimoya flower with asimina pollen stored in a freidge. I hope that the fruit of the result does include hybridisized seeds. The fruit has growed to a big fruit in the meantime, I will upload a picture later. From the flowering Cherimoya I stored some pollen frozen in my fridge. In some days my Asiminia plants (I will take the varieties Sunflower or Prima1216 ) will start to bloom and than I will pollinate some flower with Cherimoya pollen and mark them. I give updates as soon as there are any news.

Awesome - good luck and can't wait to see the pictures.

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2019, 03:36:12 PM »
Enclosed you will find some actual pictures from my trials of hybridization of Paw Paw and Cherimoya:

- Fruit of Cherimoya - Flower has been pollinated with Paw Paw pollen - hoping that noCherimoya pollen has also pollinated the flower
- Flowering Paw Paws - Varieties Mango, Sunflower and Prima1216 - which today have been pollinated with frozen stored Cherimoya pollen - pollinated flowers are wrapped in a thread as marking method
- Protection net to make sure that hopefully no insect pollinates the pollinated flowers










„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2019, 05:10:52 PM »
Wow that’s really cool what you have going there!

Have you tried putting bags or mesh around the individual flowers?
I’ve never done controlled crosses like this but always thought if I did I would bag target female flowers before they even open, remove bag just for me to pollinate, and immediately bag it again until fruit begins to form.
I have organza (type of fabric) bags from papermart.com

pvaldes

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2019, 08:59:23 PM »
How do you deal with the frost in Germany @usirius? Is not too cold there for Cherimoya survival or fruiting?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 09:16:06 PM by pvaldes »

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2019, 04:03:21 PM »
@ Triloba Tracker:

I covered not evry single flowers with a bag due to I do not have such bags and due this is more work and time intensive. I covered some twogs together with a net. The insects which here visits the flower are considerably smaller than the size of the holes of the net.

My strategy of pollinating Paw Paw with Cherimoya Pollen this year is the follwing:

- use several Varieties of Paw Paw to increase the likelihood of success
- take also Paw Paw verieties which are self fertile - they seem for me having less probles with other pollen
- take not the first flowers and not the last oness. Be between, but more tot the beginning wher enot so much Paw Paw Pollen is available
- pollinate the same flower several times - each time with freshly unfrozen pollen - which I have frozen in protions in my fridge
- mark pollinated flowers
- avoid other pollination by protection

I think tomorrow I will be ready with pollinating Paw Paw flowers in this sprng...because I am not having very much Chermioya pollen. I have pollinated in total a little bit more than 20 flowers. And but if only one fruit crossed with Cherimoya Pollen will develop to full maturity I would be happy!

@ pvaldes:

In Germany it is only possible to grow Cherimoya in plein air during spring until autumn where it flowers. From autmn to spring  it need to be protected from freees. Perfect would be a green house - or a sunny place in a house and at temperatures around 15°C . According to my Long year experiences fruits develop and get ripe by treating the plants as described. And they are as tasty as those grown in warm climates.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 05:02:41 PM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2019, 04:32:49 PM »
Today the fruit of Cherimoya has fallen down after fully ripened - the flower before this fruti has developped has been pollinated in last autumn by cool (not frozen) stored Asiminia pollen. Now let's see what happened or not...I first will enjoy teating the fruit of course and take some photos after opening it. Enclosed you will find some photo from the still unopened fully mature fruit after falling down.





« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 04:34:38 PM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2019, 04:41:27 PM »
Today I was able to take photosn which show how effective this simple form of protection - a fine-meshed net - can be in protecting flowers from unwanted foreign pollination for hybridisation trials! -The two picture show a rose beetle that likes to eat pollen from pollen containing flowers like the Paw Paw flowers. Before I took those two pictures, the beetle flew around the net for about 1 minute! So he wanted to get to the flowers that are protected in this net!



„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2019, 05:06:56 PM »
Now it is time to inform you what I have found in t he inside of the frut where the flower has been  pollinated with Paw Paw Pollen.
At first I noticed after the oven that it contained relatively much flesh and relatively few seeds. It was very pleasant to eat! And the taste like Ananas with some Lemon aroma. Only 20 seeds I could find in this big fruit, that's almost Paw-Paw level! The seeds have an unusually small size. The weight of the 20 grains has been 4,5 grams. They are smaller than Paw Paw kernels and smaller than Cherimoya kernels. But they seemed to be developed. The question is how to proceed now. Stratify? Or rather not, because Paw Paw has genes in it. It remains exciting! The first two PawPaw flowers pollinated with Cherimoya pollen have fallen off today, but there are still a lot of them hanging around. We'll see how the hybridization story goes on, it's not over for me yet!






„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

SeaWalnut

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2019, 05:18:27 PM »
To avoid stratification you could try gibberellic acid on them .Various concentrations and not on all the seeds ,keep some to sow like annona.

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2019, 01:43:40 AM »
SeaWalnut

Thank you for thiis useful hint, sounds well. I thought to treat some of them in a medium like manner - by regarding sawing of Cherimoya and Paw Paw seeds..
, I will try to store them two or three weeks at a cool er place - maybe 10 °C and than let them gow at a warm place.
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

NickTheNZgrower

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2019, 12:35:22 AM »
This is an amazing experiment and I'm following with interest. No one, as far as I know, has got as far as you, to have seeds now from a Cherimoya pollinated with pawpaw. The seeds actually look like a mix of cherimoya and pawpaw seeds so this looks really promising... Wow. Be sure to update us once the seedlings emerge. I'd try a few stratified and the rest planted like cherimoya :)

Nick

SoCal2warm

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2019, 02:12:15 PM »
Some research I was able to dig up:

George A. Zimmerman undertook an 18-year project to breed pawpaw, attempting to produce intergeneric hybrids by crossing Sugar Apple (Annona squamosa) and atemoya (A. squamosa x A. reticulata) with Pawpaw (Asimina triloba). He was unsuccessful. But he did successfully create interspecific
hybrids by crossing Asimina obovata, A. longifolia, and Asimina reticulata with Asimina tribola. The A. triloba x A. obovata hybrids appeared fertile.
Unfortunately, Zimmerman died in 1941 before his other crosses matured.

Pawpaw Variety Development: A History and Future Prospects, R. Neal Peterson,
Horttechnology, July-September 2003

SeaWalnut

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2019, 02:30:10 PM »
Most otther Asimina species are verry little shrubs except A Tetramera from what i remember and are highly endangered species.They are also edible but reports say they dont taste as good as A Triloba.In USA there is a woman that dedicated her time in conservating those endangered Asimina species.http://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2018/3/13/the-other-pawpaws Here is a link with an interview with that lady about the otther Asimina species she is trying to protect. http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/floridas-amazing-native-pawpaws/
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 02:38:59 PM by SeaWalnut »

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2019, 02:58:33 PM »
Most otther Asimina species are verry little shrubs except A Tetramera from what i remember and are highly endangered species.They are also edible but reports say they dont taste as good as A Triloba.In USA there is a woman that dedicated her time in conservating those endangered Asimina species.http://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2018/3/13/the-other-pawpaws Here is a link with an interview with that lady about the otther Asimina species she is trying to protect. http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/floridas-amazing-native-pawpaws/


Very interesting - thank you for sharing! I have not really had any interest in other Asimina species. I have seen them in the Florida panhandle quite readily (e.g. Watercolor/Seaside), however, and even have found fruit. Not sure which species these were.

I love the picture of the massive taproot. Also interesting to hear that these other pawpaws have the same strong taproot and do not like the roots disturbed.

I have bare-rooted container grown pawpaws and it didn't kill them but it did seem to slow them down. However, I just planted a container-grown tree in the ground; the potting mix all completely fell away, so it was basically bare root. But it is growing vigorously. (KSU Chappell)

Guanabanus

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2019, 03:58:06 PM »
Asimina tetramera is a small shrub;  the several dozen that I have seen were all under 4-feet tall.

Asimina parviflora and Asimina obovata can be small trees, over 10-feet tall.
Har

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2019, 06:17:54 AM »
SeaWalnut, Guanabanus, So2Calwarm: Thanks a lot for sharing those interesting information. To work on cross and hybridisizing experminets with different representants of the Paw Paw family seem to be interesting! I could imagine that the geometriy and colour of the flower can be a sign for the success in cross trials. For example A. triloba and A. parviflora show similarlities in their flowers - and has been crossed with success....

 Nevertheless I am going on in working on my Asimina hybrids....from for about 20 pollinated flowers still 10 are alive. But I am not 100% sure that those flowers have also been pollinated with Paw Paw pollen by very small insects like ants or emmets....because the holes in the net are wide enough for such insects and I have seen ants in flowers of other Paw Paw trees I have. But what I can say is that the Cherimoya Pollen has been the first on the stamps of the pollinated flowers ;-) We will see what happens.

The seeds of the Cherimoya fruit which flower has been pollinated with Paw Paw Pollen some months ago are already put and stored in some moisty soil for I would say 4 weeks and for about 5°C, I think not too cold for Cherimoya and cold enough for stratification if needed.... 

All: Do you think, that growing of such hybridisized seeds can work when treated in such manner?
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Ilya11

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2019, 03:13:48 PM »
Annona and Asimina have very similar genome size (1.7pg) but different chromosome numbers: 2x7 for Annona and 2x8  for Asimina.
It is probably worth to produce tetraploids in both species by chromosome doubling and than to  cross them.
Like this the fertility barrier has been broken in many other agriculturally important plants.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

 

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