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Author Topic: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid  (Read 7288 times)

Ilya11

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2019, 05:06:37 PM »
Diploid Asimina/Anona hybrids that Usirius is trying to produce will most probably be non fertile since two parents have different chromosome numbers.
But crossing the combination of two tetraploids will give a tetraploid hybrid with balanced chromosome number. This could be done either by a generation of tetraploid Asimina and Anona by colchicine  or oryzalin treatment and than crossing such plants, or by pollination of hybrid  atemoyas with an excess of Asimina pollen.

Triloba Tracker,
I do not think that triploid asimina will be very fertile like triploid citrus varieties.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:45:08 PM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2019, 12:31:23 AM »
Also thanks from my side for this interesting paper and thoughts for possible future crossing work!

Back to the thread here....I will give you a short update about my crossing trials of Paw Paw togehter with Cherimoya.

- From my spring crossings of Asiminia triloba flowers with Cherimoya pollen most flowers died after Setting fruit. Also many other "normally" Asimina flowers died - may be the wheather (cold period with some night freezes after flowering) may be the root cause. One fruit of a pollinated flower is still alive...

- The seeds of the fruit harvested in spring as result of last year done cross Chermioya flower with Asimina triloba pollen now are germinating - see 2 photos enclosed. One seed seem to germinate as a pair of twin plants...I will keep you informed concerning growth and viewable interspecific signs or properties...

- My mother plants of Cherimoya starts to flower again (see photo enclosed)  - as early as never before - two monts later than Asimina triloba ended flowering....so I will be able to pollinate this tame with more fresh pollen whch I have stored frozen in my fridge - spollen of everal varieties of Asimina I will try to use. I will Keep you informed.

Now I am looking Forward concerning new pollinating Trials and growing of the Young seedlings. And with some luck I will harvest a fruit of Asiminia in autumn wihich flower has been pollinated with Cherimoya pollen.

So there are still many Options for success..we have to wait still some time and than we will see what has happened ;-)







« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 10:28:27 AM by usirius »
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NickTheNZgrower

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2019, 04:19:01 AM »
This all looks great, thanks for the update. I'm really glad the seeds are germinating. Were these ones stratified?

Looking forward to seeing the seedlings once they have more size.

Nick

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2019, 12:05:13 PM »
@ Nick,

the seeds I have treated for stratification as I proposed some time ago - I used only coldness.

In detail I did the following steps:

- After opening the fruit and cleaning the seeds from the fruit flesh I dryed the seeds for a half day at 15°C
-  Than I layed the seeds in slightly moisty soil
-  After this I stored them some days at  temperatures for about 15°C
-  Next step I put the seeds into a fridge and stored them there for 4 weeks at about 5°C
-  Now I put them into plein air - summer time -  temperatures 24-33 °X - first germinating occured after about three weeks waiting time

Enlosed there are some new pictures of the seedlings. For me the leafes looks more similar to Cherimoya leafes. One seedling still is connected with the shell of one of the very special shaped grains - this Picture Show that those seedlings have really germinated from the very Special shaped grains coming out of the fruit of the one Asminia pollinated Cherimoya flower which I posted  here some months ago ,







„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2019, 10:18:50 AM »
Now the time has come to start second trial of hybridization using Cherimoya as mother and Asiminia as father - because in the new season the first Cherimoya flower began to open. I took pollen from Asiminia "Prima 1216"- see photos enclosed. For the next fowers which will follow I will also use pollen of several other Asiminia varieties. Please see photos enclosed of pollinating.











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Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2019, 11:04:58 AM »
Very cool!
I’d never seen a cherimoya flower before.

When was the Asimina pollen collected?

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2019, 12:05:31 PM »
@ Triloba Tracker: Thanks for your reply. To your question: I collected Asiminia pollen from several varieties of Paw Paw end of April 2019 and stored it frozen at -25 °C ( -13 °F) until today when I used it the first time. I have taken several other samples of pollen which I still will keep frozen for pollinating next flowers...As it looks like many Cherimoya flowers willl flower in the next weeks - an I will have this time enough Asimina pollen  - frozen in several little cartridges to be able to thaw and use them individually for the several planned pollinations - means to have for each pollination a new pollen batch available.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:10:12 PM by usirius »
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Triloba Tracker

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2019, 01:00:28 PM »
Sounds like a great plan

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2019, 04:00:42 PM »
Today I will give some updates:

1. One of the seedlings of the crossing which I did last year Chemimoya (Mother) x Asiminia (Father) by using dried pollen shows crippled growth. Possibly a real hybrid? With the different number of chromosomes of the two parents, it is possible that no normal behaviour can be expected in such a difficult cross... Who knows? We will see...






2. the recently pollinated flower of Cherimoya is still hanging and it has not (?) dried up. It seems as if the fruit set is still struggling with whether it was really pollinated or not. An unpollinated flower of Cherimoya would have dried out after this time. A properly pollinated flower would have a thicker stalk...so the result is somehow in between. Let's see what else is going on! In contrast to last year I had not pollinated with Chermioya pollen at a later time.




3. Cherimoya's second flower this season (and the last one for a long time to come) will probably wait for pollination tomorrow. I will pollinate this time with pollen from Sunflower.



4. One of the in last spring pollinated flowers Asiminia (Mother)  x Cherimoya iincludes is still alive - we had freezes after flowering time, therefore many Young fruits Drops down, also normally pollinated fruits. So I hope that ithis fruit will grow further and get ripe- maybe it includes also norma asininia seeds, because I was not able to exclude to 100% pollination by insects.




„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2019, 04:53:18 PM »
Who from you have sometimes seen any seedlings from Cherimoya? Maybe anyone of you has actuallay some seedlings of Cherimoya in his collection?

The reason for my question - the seedlings of my potential crossings show only few hairs on the bottom side of the leafes - in opposite to this the mother plant shows a lot of hairs on the lower side of ist leafes.

Do you know if Cherimoya seedlings firs have less hairs on their leafes and develop more and more hairs as older they get?
(This pould help to evualate the possibility of getting really crossed Cherimoya with Asiminia.
Just for information: Asiminia does show nearly no hairs on the lower side of ist leafes - therefore my question)

Please find enclosed some prictures with show the bottom side of some leafes:


- Bottom side of the leafes of young seedlings - potentially Chermimoya x Asiminia seedlings - show only few hairs


- Bottom side of the leafes of the mother plant - Show a lot of hairs


- Bottom side of the leafes of Asminia triloba - Show nearly no hairs

« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 06:28:32 PM by usirius »
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SeaWalnut

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2019, 08:45:19 PM »
This is my cherimoya seedling.I put somewhone to take the picture and its not too clear to heellp you.

mikkel

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2019, 05:44:25 PM »
@usirius
Here is another picture of a cherimoya seedling
https://ibb.co/hfNVTFM

this is the thread
http://citrusgrowersv2.proboards.com/thread/131/cherimoya-seedlings

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2019, 06:25:35 PM »
@SeaWalnut - Thank you for the picture. Seem to Show similar or some more hairs on the down side of the leaf. I have a question: Is the seedling still so somall or did it grow bigger and Show more hairs on the bottom of the leafes?

@Mikkel - Thank you for the link. Your seedling show as many hair as the mother plant of my seedlings do, but it also seem to be a Little bit elder than my seedlings are. I have a question: Did this seedling show significant less hairs on the bottom when it has been younger on ist first leafes?
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mikkel

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2019, 06:30:13 PM »
@usirius sorry but it is not my picture. I just found that thread on the other forum and asked for a picture. I can ask there if you like or you get in touch via the othe forum.

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2019, 05:25:02 PM »
Now I had the luck to get some seedlings of Asimina triloba for better comparison.

So see here the comparison of Asimina triloba seedlings and the possible Cherimoya-Asimina-Hybrid seeldings:






So they are of course different as expected..

When comparing the foliage of the possible hybrid seedlings with the foliage of their mother plant Cherimoay - the are a little bit different- see the hairs, the colour of the sprouts....






But when I compare the seedlings of Asimina with ist mother plants there are also some differences....






What is your opinion - are the possible hybrd seelings really hybrids?

Nevertheless I started new trials of hybridisation of Cherimoya and Asininia as already announced in spring by using Asimina asmother and now by using agan Cherimoya as mother, here are some results:








So: It remains exciting.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 05:37:59 PM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

Guanabanus

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2019, 09:14:19 PM »
Way to experiment!
Har

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2019, 09:48:47 PM »
Way to experiment!

I was going to say the same thing :)
I think generally with seedlings it’s hard to tell a lot. Especially when comparing to a mature plant.
I think all we can do is wait and see. Those fruits look good!
This is exciting indeed.

NickTheNZgrower

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2019, 11:41:57 PM »
To my eye, your seedlings look different to ordinary cherimoya seedlings. To me, there is real hope that this could be a real hybrid. I can't wait to see more mature plants and eventually what the flowers and fruit looks like.

Please keep us updated :) You should eventually be able to graft a piece of the "Hybrid" seedling to a mature fruiting cherimoya and get flowers faster.

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2019, 05:31:16 PM »
@All: Thanks for your comments. Yes, I also think that the comparison of young plants with adult plants is limping.  Unfortunately, I don't have any Cherimoya seedlings to be able to compare the hybrid seedlings with them. Time will tell. Nonetheless - regardless of whether it worked the first time or not, I have further trials running and there will be results here as well. Maybe I will attract pure Cherimoya seedlings to have a comparison, or one of you happens to have Cherimoya seedlings of comparable age. The tip to add rice to an adult plant for an earlier flower is good. If I know of citrus plants, which I have worked on intensively for many years, this trick can also be used successfully there.
I will keep you informed - of course.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 05:32:56 PM by usirius »
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SeaWalnut

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2019, 04:15:13 AM »
My cherimoya seedling to use it for comparison.






« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:18:35 AM by SeaWalnut »

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2019, 06:07:36 PM »
Thanks @SeaWalnt for sharing so much pictures of your Cherimoya seedlings. For me your seedlings show a little bit more hairs han my seedlings of the potential hybrid. But I can well imagine that there are scatters among cherimoya plants as far as hair formation is concerned. There are also differences in the shape of the leaves: I myself have two different types, one with a rounded leaf end and one with a pointed leaf end. Tomorrow in daylight I will compare your photo with my local plants and post one or two macro shots of the leaf hair and the leaf tip.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 06:36:12 PM by usirius »
„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

usirius

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2019, 02:48:12 AM »
Today in the morning I took some additional pictures from the potential crossings Cherimoya x Asimina
With a better resolution of my camera I was able to see that those seedlings show more hairs than I have seen with my eyes an felt with my hands.












So in comparison to @SeaWalnuts's Cherimoya seelings they seem to be very similar as to the hairiness.

So at this point, my opinion is that hybridization probably did not work. So I am hoping that my  further attempts will show more further trials will show more significant hybridization successes.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 06:34:55 PM by usirius »
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SeaWalnut

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2019, 03:16:08 AM »
Dont hurry to assume that it didnt work.You are most likely right ,but its still too early to tell.

Guanabanus

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2019, 07:38:20 AM »
I would separate them into individual pots, to observe further.  At the very least, they will be good for root-stocks.   If you put grafts onto them when they are three or four feet tall and with more than one branch, you can leave one branch without a graft, to evaluate its fruit.
Har

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Re: Cherimoya/Pawpaw hybrid
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2019, 08:52:34 PM »
I agree - don’t give up! A healthy pessimism is o k but it could still be a cross.

 

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