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Author Topic: Florida Mango trees planted in California  (Read 16990 times)

ClayMango

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2016, 10:29:41 PM »
Thanks for the report Clay! Do you know if the current owners kept the trees? It usually takes several years before the trees start to decline and get droopy.

Simon

Unfortunately Simon, in the process of getting my Home ready for rent, l Let my trees go for about 4 months, All my Tropicals bit the dust in the Winter.... I managed to take My CC with me here in VA, basically got pugged from the Winter.....just sent out it's first flush a month ago.... Hard times my friend....look to start over one day when I retire.... Hopefully in Fallbrook CA or Deluz Temecula.
Thinking about joining a Fruitaholics anonymous support group...Fruit addiction has taken over my life!

bsbullie

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2016, 10:55:47 PM »
.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 10:58:21 PM by bsbullie »
- Rob

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2016, 10:59:34 PM »
Yo dude, you need to read closely, DUDE.  Your response has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.  Barath's post was on topic, and he didnt ask anything about overwintering of any type of rootstock in any location.  As I previously posted, your post was torally random and had nothing to do with the topic of THIS thesad.  If you want to discuss growing msngoes outside of the normsl mango growing zone, maybe start your own?  Get it now, dude?

My Autalfo/Champagne I grew from seed. It even as a seedling was never protected from frost. I feel pretty good it will last.  One thing- plant a few of them as some seedlings will be much more faster growing. From what I can tell,those seedlings who start with adult like foliage are MUCH better then the usual small leafs that flush larger much later.



What in the world does this have to do with the thread's topic?

Well,read close Bullie dude. Barath was wondering about Aultalfo as rootstock. Hence, my post that mine went through TWO winter uprotected is agreeing they would make a good rootstalk if you dont want Aultalfo fruit.  Sabe? I also included my observations that even the variation of the seeds is interesting.
Barath is up here in the bay area where things might be different. Get it now?
- Rob

Johnny Eat Fruit

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Re: Turpentine vs Manilla Rootstock
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2016, 11:11:57 PM »
Below are some photos to contrast and compare the Florida turpentine root-stock and the manilla root-stock hear in SoCal. The first photo is of two Glenn mango trees taken in late May. The Glenn of the left in a 7 gallon container was purchased from TT last year in Florida and the Glenn on the right was purchased early this year from Mimosa Nursery and was grafted on manilla rootstock in a 5 gallon container. You can see from the photo the droopy appearance of the Florida Glenn and while both are putting on a new growth flush now the manilla Glenn has more robust growth and is definally growing faster.

The second photo shows two Mallika mango trees with both in 15 gallon containers. The tree on the left is a manilla graft while the tree on the right is a Florida Turpentine graft.

The last photo is a mango tree I saw on the property next to Atkins Nursery in Fallbrook California last year. It looks like a manilla seedling that is still growing and looks quite healthy. If I had to guess I would say it's about 10 years old and 12 feet tall and wide.

Johnny
     






Guanabanus

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2016, 11:42:48 PM »
Very interesting.

Here in Florida we are increasingly aware of root-stock differences, for different varieties of scions.   And field observations by final buyers can be hugely relevant.

At least equally as relevant as different genetics of the root-stocks are the following practices:

Were the 1-gallon trees transplanted, at the nursery, into 3-gallon pots at the correct depth--- with the bases of the top roots showing --- or were they buried?
Repeat at transplanting into the ground.

Did the nursery use a mix with good drainage, or was it mucky or composty?

Were circling roots cut away from the root-ball when the 1-gallon mango was transplanted in the nursery to a 3-gallon pot?  Or was the root-ball left intact, to gradually become pot bound after being removed from the pot?  And then maybe to become a wood bagel?
Har

raimeiken

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2016, 11:56:10 PM »
Anybody have updates on their Mango trees that are purchased from Florida or are known to have come from a nursery out of Florida?

I'm especially interested to hear if you have had trees that have died or have just been sluggish in growth or have extremely droopy growth.

I would also love to hear of success stories of your Florida grafted mango trees. I know there are already a few reports of some varieties, namely the more vigorous varieties like Valencia Pride, Lemon Zest and Alphonso. Thanks,

Simon

I've killed three mangoes so far from Florida. First one was an Alphonso. Grew quite well but droopy. Died from a fungal disease after a year in ground though. Started to observe sap slowly leaking from the trunk, especially after watering it, then it declined from there.

Second and third tree were Lemon zest (15gal) and Coconut cream (7gal) both planted in ground. Amended soil and mulch. Grew fine for the first six months. Tip pruning them along the way. CC had droopy new growth. LZ very vigorous, but not droopy. Come fall of last year, they halted their growth and their tips started turning brown and dying back. Sap also leaking from trunk or branches. I tried fungicides, thinking it could be fungal disease again. They made it through winter but had to hack back a lot of bigger limbs. Spring of this year both started growing again, no more browning tips. But summer hit and they both fried. I don't think they were fully healthy and ready for the high temps. I think both succumb to mango dieback disease. I first observed it on the LZ, and I think got passed onto the CC via my pruning shears not knowing the other tree was sick to begin with.

Now I'm down to two mango trees. Fruit punch from Florida also (3gal) planted in ground this spring and doing well so far. The other mango tree is the one from Tim Thompson 'Pineapple' mango. That one is growing very very well. Not sure what rootstock it's on but so far it's very healthy. Planning to graft onto it later this fall.

I'm trying not to water them as much as the ones that died. I think over watering them stressed the trees and brought in the fungal disease.


JF

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2016, 12:28:11 AM »
Yo dude, you need to read closely, DUDE.  Your response has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.  Barath's post was on topic, and he didnt ask anything about overwintering of any type of rootstock in any location.  As I previously posted, your post was torally random and had nothing to do with the topic of THIS thesad.  If you want to discuss growing msngoes outside of the normsl mango growing zone, maybe start your own?  Get it now, dude?

My Autalfo/Champagne I grew from seed. It even as a seedling was never protected from frost. I feel pretty good it will last.  One thing- plant a few of them as some seedlings will be much more faster growing. From what I can tell,those seedlings who start with adult like foliage are MUCH better then the usual small leafs that flush larger much later.



What in the world does this have to do with the thread's topic?

Well,read close Bullie dude. Barath was wondering about Aultalfo as rootstock. Hence, my post that mine went through TWO winter uprotected is agreeing they would make a good rootstalk if you dont want Aultalfo fruit.  Sabe? I also included my observations that even the variation of the seeds is interesting.
Barath is up here in the bay area where things might be different. Get it now?


Rob

this hombre doesn't comprende

Guanabanus

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2016, 12:44:28 AM »
Sapping out from wounds is usually from a bacterial infection or Copper deficiency.  Either way, spray Copper.
Har

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2016, 01:33:50 AM »
Very interesting.

Here in Florida we are increasingly aware of root-stock differences, for different varieties of scions.   And field observations by final buyers can be hugely relevant.

At least equally as relevant as different genetics of the root-stocks are the following practices:

Were the 1-gallon trees transplanted, at the nursery, into 3-gallon pots at the correct depth--- with the bases of the top roots showing --- or were they buried?
Repeat at transplanting into the ground.

Did the nursery use a mix with good drainage, or was it mucky or composty?

Were circling roots cut away from the root-ball when the 1-gallon mango was transplanted in the nursery to a 3-gallon pot?  Or was the root-ball left intact, to gradually become pot bound after being removed from the pot?  And then maybe to become a wood bagel?

Har, those are great points you bring up and I just wanted to clarify that not all "Turpentine" rootstocks perform poorly in California. Leo actually has some large trees on seedling Turpentine rootstocks and I'm not sure exactly why the rootstocks that the Florida nurseries use perform so poorly but I believe it has something to do with the pH and poorer adaptability to growing in cooler climates. I hope we can all share our knowledge and learn together.

Simon

marklee

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2016, 02:38:19 AM »
Simon, most of the mangos I have from Florida that are in the ground now are very, I mean very slow growers. For example a Rosigold that has been planted for about 4 years has never put out new growth, it flowered for the first time this year. It looks droopy and almost ready to leave this world. For example other Florida trees Neelam, Thom pi Khan, Cac, Fruit Punch, are hardly growing. The only one from Florida that is doing great is Piņa Colada, it is putting out plenty of growth. I have resorted to grafting the Florida varieties like everyone else onto locally grown seeds. The most 2 vigorous trees I have are a Corriente seedling from Cal Tropics and a polyembrionic seedling I started from one of Paul Thompson's fruits from his Edgehill property. So it sounds like most of the Florida grown trees either die or fail to thrive here. One person here in San Diego county has many Florida grown trees on his property and every time I see them, they seem to be the same size as the year before, but some do fruit ok.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 11:39:26 AM by marklee »

raimeiken

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2016, 09:44:18 AM »
Are you guys amending your planting holes?

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2016, 12:34:48 PM »
I've tried amending my soil and I've also planted in holes that weren't amended. My seedlings and Lavern Manilla mango trees are planted in the same soil as the Florida trees and only the florida trees perform poorly.

Here is a Carrie mango on Florida rootstock. It was planted into the ground about two years ago and constantly flowers and fruits with 0-1 veg flush a year. The branches and leaves look horrible, it could be phomopsis slowing it down, not sure.

Anyways, because of its slow progress, I planted several seedlings in the same hole so same soil, same water and same fertilizer. As you can see in the picture, the seedlings have put on two vegetative growth flushes and I believe they will overtake the Carrie in 1-2 years. one of the seedlings is I grafted and the other seedling is grafted with Venus. The. Venus flowered and tried to hold fruit which I removed.

The largest tallest tree is the Carrie but it is much older than the seedlings which were planted last year IIRC

Simon




barath

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2016, 01:06:42 PM »
Anyways, because of its slow progress, I planted several seedlings in the same hole so same soil, same water and same fertilizer. As you can see in the picture, the seedlings have put on two vegetative growth flushes and I believe they will overtake the Carrie in 1-2 years. one of the seedlings is I grafted and the other seedling is grafted with Venus. The. Venus flowered and tried to hold fruit which I removed.

Are you planning on approach grafting the seedlings to multi-rootstock the Florida tree?  Have you tried that in the past, and does that work to fix the Florida rootstock syndrome?

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2016, 01:21:38 PM »
Hey Barath, that was my original intent when I came up with the idea 1-2 years ago but I decided not to approach graft the Florida rootstock for a couple reasons. #1 is because the Florida rootstock trees are older and the trunk is no longer green so I will have fewer takes on my approach graft. #2 is because another issue with Florida rootstock is the droopy growth. By adding additional rootstocks to the Florida rootstock, I may be increasing the rate of the droopy growth.

The seedlings and Lavern Manilla grow so well that it's easier to take scions from my Florida trees and graft them onto the seedlings and Manilla rootstocks.

Simon

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2016, 02:41:44 PM »
Hey Barath, that was my original intent when I came up with the idea 1-2 years ago but I decided not to approach graft the Florida rootstock for a couple reasons. #1 is because the Florida rootstock trees are older and the trunk is no longer green so I will have fewer takes on my approach graft. #2 is because another issue with Florida rootstock is the droopy growth. By adding additional rootstocks to the Florida rootstock, I may be increasing the rate of the droopy growth.

The seedlings and Lavern Manilla grow so well that it's easier to take scions from my Florida trees and graft them onto the seedlings and Manilla rootstocks.

mon

Hey Simon
There are Only a few turpentine Florida mangos that have adapted well to our soil and climate. One of them being cogshal which has a steady growth rate and excellent production. Most of my trees are grafted onto ataufo or Manila rootstock. I have a Peggy that Leo gave me a few years ago that's on Keith rootstock that grows very slow. Most of Eunice's giant trees were grafted on piņa rootstock which is a Manila typed mango from the Philippines. All of her turpentine Florida trees were dwarf and poor producer except for her tommy that produce well but was only 7-8' after 40 years. 

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2016, 02:54:09 PM »
Thanks for the report JF, I am also in the process of converting my Mango trees to be on Manilla/Ataulfo aside from my experiments. Eunices trees are huge and extremely fruitful. I hope other growers out there realize the dramatic differences in growth between the different types of rootstocks.

Simon

Samu

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2016, 03:47:18 PM »
Hi Simon,
Not sure if this photo below is useful or not, but here's my NDM scion grafted onto
Manila rootstock last August 2015, and it's size today. I lifted a few leaves with a piece
of wire before snapping the photo so you can see the relative size of it's original scion, which
was about pencil size.



By the way, what did you find the different result, if any, between planting from pot into a hole
in the ground with soil amendment added or without? Sorry if you already answer this,
thanks!
Sam

knlim000

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2016, 05:51:35 PM »
For us newbies, how can you tell the different type of rootstocks?  How do I  know what kind of rootstocks I have? 

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2016, 07:34:59 PM »
Thanks for the pictures Sam, the NDM looks really healthy on the Manilla rootstock. My situation for amended vs non amended planting holes is different than most other growers because I plant on mini mounds. If you plant in an amended hole, the organic amendments become food for microbial and insect life which eventually breaks down and your amended hole will sink and settle a bit. If you over amend with organics, the soil will become very heavy and stay wet for long periods of time but my holes are elevated to help with drainage.

For my newer plantings, I loosen the soil in the square shaped hole and backfill with the native soil but I amend with about 20-30% topsoil mixed in with my native heavy clay soil. I also seed my backfill soil with a handful of actinomycetes from bagged soil and I also add beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizal fungi. All my amendments really go on as a top dressing and do not go into the backfill soil.

I feel that too many people over amend with organic matter which can cause root issues several years later. If my soil were a bit better, I would backfill with 100% native soil but my soil is so bad it repels water like rain off a ducks back.

Several of my trees have been in the ground for about 4 years now including several citrus and they are all really healthy and hold more fruit than I can use.

Knlim000, if your tree was purchased from mail order from Florida or it has a Pine Island Nursery tag on it, it is likely on Florida Turpentine rootstock. Lavern Manilla is an excellent proven rootstock here in California and I highly recommend it. Almost any seedlings from store bought mangos have made great rootstock so far but this is much too early to make any conclusions.

Seedling mango trees planted directly into the ground can turn into huge trees. Leo tells me that seedlings planted into pots and then planted into the ground can also turn into huge trees if you ensure the roots are not restricted and pot bound. Take a look at these huge mango trees in California.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=1835.0

Simon
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 07:37:01 PM by simon_grow »

ClayMango

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2016, 09:14:21 AM »
Yo dude, you need to read closely, DUDE.  Your response has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.  Barath's post was on topic, and he didnt ask anything about overwintering of any type of rootstock in any location.  As I previously posted, your post was torally random and had nothing to do with the topic of THIS thesad.  If you want to discuss growing msngoes outside of the normsl mango growing zone, maybe start your own?  Get it now, dude?

My Autalfo/Champagne I grew from seed. It even as a seedling was never protected from frost. I feel pretty good it will last.  One thing- plant a few of them as some seedlings will be much more faster growing. From what I can tell,those seedlings who start with adult like foliage are MUCH better then the usual small leafs that flush larger much later.



What in the world does this have to do with the thread's topic?

Well,read close Bullie dude. Barath was wondering about Aultalfo as rootstock. Hence, my post that mine went through TWO winter uprotected is agreeing they would make a good rootstalk if you dont want Aultalfo fruit.  Sabe? I also included my observations that even the variation of the seeds is interesting.
Barath is up here in the bay area where things might be different. Get it now?
What is your problem? Simon asked a harmless question and I replied... Sorry if I slightly derailed the thread in answering a question.... No need to be rude and disrespectful.
Thinking about joining a Fruitaholics anonymous support group...Fruit addiction has taken over my life!

Tim

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2016, 04:24:23 PM »
Please stay on topic and refrain from name calling, KEYBOARD BOXING does not help anyone or anything grow any better.
Tim

shaneatwell

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2016, 08:45:47 PM »
Simon, One thing I've been contemplating is burying the graft. I've read about it in other contexts. Pretty much how all avocados on clonal rootstocks are produced. I've done it with one other tree. Eventually your variety would be growing on its own roots.
Shane

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2016, 09:20:23 PM »
Shane, I remember seeing the tutorial on how clonal avocado rootstocks are created and that is an interesting idea worth testing out. It would be like a mango air layer with Turpentine roots on the bottom.

Simon

Guanabanus

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2016, 09:24:38 AM »
Sounds risky---  burying fruit-tree trunks above the root-crown often causes gradual decline; or roots circling the trunk above the root-crown, which eventually tighten and girdle the tree; or even sometimes trunk infections that cause rapid decline.
Har

simon_grow

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Re: Florida Mango trees planted in California
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2016, 09:39:58 AM »
Har brings up excellent points and now that I think about it some more, I don't really see the benefits of this technique unless we have found a superior rootstock for which we would like to propogate.

Shane, if you try this technique, it may, or may not, be more successful with younger plants in the green wood stage. I believe the hardened brown trunk stage has already differentiated into corky bark cells which may be more difficult to induce roots on. If I Recall Correctly, the Avocado clonal rootstock propagation technique used young plants.

Simon

 

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