Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!  (Read 3251 times)

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« on: May 12, 2015, 12:31:20 AM »
Suppose a plant takes 10 years from seed to flower and a grafted plant will flower in 5 years.
I took scion from a 3 year old grafted plant (which is supposed to flower after 2 years) and grafted to a seedling.
Will the newly grafted plant flower in 5 years or will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Sorry if I am wasting your time by asking such a stupid question.
:-\
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 09:37:47 AM by vipinrl »

huertasurbanas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
    • Junín, Argentina, zone 9b/9a
    • View Profile
    • huertasurbanas
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 12:41:15 AM »
hehe, Very interesting: I had never thought ... just for fun, I venture to say that if you take a branch of the grafted plant, grown, and graft in any other, it will take the same time to bear fruit. If it took five years in the grafted for the first time, it will take five years in the second grafted too. (just guessing, lets wait for the masters...)

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 01:02:04 AM »
hehe, Very interesting: I had never thought ... just for fun, I venture to say that if you take a branch of the grafted plant, grown, and graft in any other, it will take the same time to bear fruit. If it took five years in the grafted for the first time, it will take five years in the second grafted too. (just guessing, lets wait for the masters...)

Yes, I know it will take only 5 years, if the scion is taken from already matured (flowered) 5+year old grafted plant.
But, here the grafted plant is not yet 'matured', it is only 3 years old.

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 02:03:47 AM »
Suppose a plant takes 10 years from seed to flower and a grafted plant will flower in 5 years.
I took scion from a 3 year old grafted plant (which is supposed to flower after 2 years) and grafted to a seedling.
Will the newly grafted plant flower in 5 years or will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Sorry if I am wasting your time by asking such a stupid question.
:-\

The scion you took is from a grafted plant, so genetically it contains hormones of a mature plant. So if grafted onto seedling it should, generally speaking, take 5 years. But like everything botanical, the simple answer is not always the correct answer. Fruiting time will depend on many things: type of fruit you're talking about, how the plant is treated, whether it's fertiliized, etc.
Oscar

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 02:17:15 AM »
Suppose a plant takes 10 years from seed to flower and a grafted plant will flower in 5 years.
I took scion from a 3 year old grafted plant (which is supposed to flower after 2 years) and grafted to a seedling.
Will the newly grafted plant flower in 5 years or will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Sorry if I am wasting your time by asking such a stupid question.
:-\

The scion you took is from a grafted plant, so genetically it contains hormones of a mature plant. So if grafted onto seedling it should, generally speaking, take 5 years. But like everything botanical, the simple answer is not always the correct answer. Fruiting time will depend on many things: type of fruit you're talking about, how the plant is treated, whether it's fertiliized, etc.
???  :blank:

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 03:57:24 AM »
Suppose a plant takes 10 years from seed to flower and a grafted plant will flower in 5 years.
I took scion from a 3 year old grafted plant (which is supposed to flower after 2 years) and grafted to a seedling.
Will the newly grafted plant flower in 5 years or will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Sorry if I am wasting your time by asking such a stupid question.
:-\

The scion you took is from a grafted plant, so genetically it contains hormones of a mature plant. So if grafted onto seedling it should, generally speaking, take 5 years. But like everything botanical, the simple answer is not always the correct answer. Fruiting time will depend on many things: type of fruit you're talking about, how the plant is treated, whether it's fertiliized, etc.
???  :blank:

Will the newly grafted plant flower in
1) 5 years or
2)will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Answer is #2.
Oscar

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 04:39:20 AM »
Ok Oscar, thanks for the info  :).

sanitarium

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
    • Slovakia, zone 7a
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 05:18:11 AM »

Will the newly grafted plant flower in
1) 5 years or
2)will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Answer is #2.


Answer should be anytime from 5th year I guess.. as Oscar already said the original scion have the mature hormons and so the new growth have it, too.
Daniel

Mike T

  • Zone 12a
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7430
  • Cairns,Nth Qld, Australia
    • Zone 12a
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 06:19:19 AM »
Scions are usually taken from mature tree wood capable of fruiting immediately that size and resources are available and the rootstock part will lag behind going through its juvenile phase.
The questions more often asked include,does scion wood from a 3 year old seedling that usually fruits at 8 still have to wait 5 more years (or 7 if the rootstock is one year old)of maturing to fruit if grafted onto a younger seedling? The reverse is how long would the immature scion have to wait on a mature and fruiting tree? The answer usually given is 5 more years in both cases.

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 06:20:33 AM »

Will the newly grafted plant flower in
1) 5 years or
2)will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Answer is #2.




Answer should be anytime from 5th year I guess.. as Oscar already said the original scion have the mature hormons and so the new growth have it, too.

OOoops, sorry for typo. Should be: answer is #1: 5 years, as i said in first answer.
Oscar

treefrog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • peace, love, and guavas!
    • jefferson county, fl (panhandle) 8b
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 10:27:37 AM »
much of this is opinion which i have gathered from experience, reading, and discussion with others.  not intended to be scientific fact.

many plants, such as fruit trees, go through a process analagous to human puberty.  young plants are not capable of reproduction (flowering) because their internal biochemistry has not matured to that point.  at some point, probably influenced by age, size, general health, or other factors, the plant undergoes an internal transformation (hormone change?) and begins to produce flowers. 
this maturation process takes different amounts of time with various species.  with annuals, such as common garden vegetables, it is quite short.  with fruit trees such as avocados, it takes several years.  with nut trees, it can be even longer.
scion wood is commonly taken from reproductively mature plants, and is biochemically ready to flower, given an adequate supply of nutrients.  this supply base depends on the root structure of the rootstock, and the amount of leaf area in the canopy.  often, a scion will begin to blossom before the supply base is adequate.  this, i believe is why young grafted trees drop so much of the fruit they set.  the tree discovers that its blossoms have written checks that its root system and leaf area will have trouble cashing. 
i have noticed that when seedlings do begin to flower, they do not prematurely drop as many undeveloped fruit as young grafted stock does.  seedlings have had a few more years to develop adequate root systems and leaf canopy while they were waiting for puberty.
again, this is mostly opinion, resulting from experience, not rigid science.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 10:42:49 AM by treefrog »
treefrog land and cattle company

simon_grow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5400
  • USA, San Diego, CA, Zone 10a
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 01:35:38 PM »
I got a small Angie that was grafted onto a seedling from the auction on this forum. It was only about 1 foot tall and it flowered the first season.

Simon

MangoFang

  • Palm Springs, CA, Zone 9B
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1715
  • Palm Springs, CA
    • Riverside, Palm Springs/CA, 92264,9b
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2015, 02:12:08 PM »
Simon - sounds like early onset puberty - hope s/he/it becomes
a STUD!!!!!!!!!!


Gary

Mark in Texas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
    • Fredericksburg Texas, (central TX), zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2015, 02:21:31 PM »
I second what treefrog articulated so well.

When you take mature, fruit (or nut) bearing wood from an older tree and graft it to a seedling, the scion doesn't know it's new mother is not mature, it still thinks genetically and perhaps phenotypically it's old enough to bear.  The plant as a whole, a sum of its parts, has to be mature enough to support flowering and fruiting. Best gauge for that is the developing trunk girth, overall vigor, amount of root and foliage mass, etc.  When it has the right amount of support, it's time to rock.

Kinda like someone stating that my Nacono pecan tree won't produce for at least 6 years after planting.  Glad my tree can't read.  It set a good crop on 2nd leaf and continues to do so.  As an aside, Nacono is the one to get over all others!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 02:26:31 PM by Mark in Texas »

treefrog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • peace, love, and guavas!
    • jefferson county, fl (panhandle) 8b
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2015, 03:34:43 PM »
the reproductive maturity issue is also present with plants propagated by cuttings (i.e. guavas).  plants grown from cuttings may blossom and set fruit before there is adequate root structure or leaf canopy to ripen the fruit.  sometimes this results in some or all of the fruit dropping prematurely.  other times it results in smaller, lower quality fruit for the first year or two.
treefrog land and cattle company

sanitarium

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
    • Slovakia, zone 7a
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2015, 03:40:22 PM »
I got a small Angie that was grafted onto a seedling from the auction on this forum. It was only about 1 foot tall and it flowered the first season.

Simon

Sounds like the scion had already formed flower buds when taken from the mother tree.
Daniel

behlgarden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2186
    • CA, Zone 10 B
    • View Profile
    • LED Bulbs for Landscape Lighting
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2015, 03:44:29 PM »
most my grafts (scions from matured fruit producing aged wood) grafted onto 2-3 yr old seedlings fruited the same year, although I did not let it hold fruit the first time.

Manohar, which is seedling of chaunsa not only flowered, but fruited in 4th year, its a mono.

JF has a julie seedling that fruited this year, it happens to be month 28 from seed.

FlyingFoxFruits

  • Prince of Plinia
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12310
  • www.FlyingFoxFruits.com
    • USA, FEMA Region IV, FL Zone 9a
    • View Profile
    • Flying Fox Fruits
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 03:47:43 PM »
I have seen scions from an immature plant fruit before the mother tree!

And have seen mature scions taken from mother trees that fruited before the mother tree!!

Suppose a plant takes 10 years from seed to flower and a grafted plant will flower in 5 years.
I took scion from a 3 year old grafted plant (which is supposed to flower after 2 years) and grafted to a seedling.
Will the newly grafted plant flower in 5 years or will it take more years (say upto 10)?

Sorry if I am wasting your time by asking such a stupid question.
:-\

The scion you took is from a grafted plant, so genetically it contains hormones of a mature plant. So if grafted onto seedling it should, generally speaking, take 5 years. But like everything botanical, the simple answer is not always the correct answer. Fruiting time will depend on many things: type of fruit you're talking about, how the plant is treated, whether it's fertiliized, etc.

barath

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
    • Southern California, USDA Zone 10b
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 03:48:41 PM »
treefrog, that's a great explanation -- very well said.

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2015, 01:17:15 AM »
Thank you all for the replies.

So, to conclude:
Matured scions remain matured through out 'grafted generations' irrespective of the age of (intermediate)seedlings.
And for grafted trees to hold fruit, they should have a minimum required vigor.
Am I right?

One more question:
If I graft scion from a young tree to a already fruiting tree, will the growth from the scion flower/ hold fruit in the next season?
Or will it take as much time required for a seedling to flower?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 03:02:06 AM by vipinrl »

fruitlovers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
  • www.fruitlovers.com
    • USA, Big Island, East Hawaii, Zone 13a
    • View Profile
    • Fruit Lover's Nursery
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2015, 02:07:43 AM »
Thank you all for the replies.

So, to conclude:
Matured scions remain matured through out the grafted generations irrespective of the age of (intermediate)seedlings.
And for grafted trees to hold fruit, they should have a minimum required vigor.
I am right?

One more question:
If I graft scion from a young tree to a already fruiting tree, will the growth from the scion flower/ hold fruit in the next season?
Or will it take as much time required for a seedling to flower?

First part, yes you are right. Second part, grafting young seedling wood to mature tree will impart same age to the young scion wood. So it will fruit faster and hold the fruit. Luther Burbank used this technique for breeding work, grafting young seedling wood to mature trees. That way he could speed up fruiting and do faster and more selections for desirable traits. But this may not work on all fruits, or it may work better on certain types of fruits.
Oscar

vipinrl

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • India, Western Ghats, Kerala
    • View Profile
Re: A (mad?)question about grafted plants!
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2015, 03:08:43 AM »
Thank you all for the replies.

So, to conclude:
Matured scions remain matured through out the grafted generations irrespective of the age of (intermediate)seedlings.
And for grafted trees to hold fruit, they should have a minimum required vigor.
I am right?

One more question:
If I graft scion from a young tree to a already fruiting tree, will the growth from the scion flower/ hold fruit in the next season?
Or will it take as much time required for a seedling to flower?

First part, yes you are right. Second part, grafting young seedling wood to mature tree will impart same age to the young scion wood. So it will fruit faster and hold the fruit. Luther Burbank used this technique for breeding work, grafting young seedling wood to mature trees. That way he could speed up fruiting and do faster and more selections for desirable traits. But this may not work on all fruits, or it may work better on certain types of fruits.

Oh! great information (atleast for me ;))!.
I have 3 Mallika Mango seeds germinating and I can't wait 5 - 7 years to see if they are worth growing.
It is not that difficult to get grafted Mango trees; but, I would prefer to grow my own 'selection'.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 03:10:43 AM by vipinrl »

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers