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Author Topic: Double stone grafting for Mango  (Read 51573 times)

simon_grow

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Double stone grafting for Mango
« on: June 25, 2015, 03:00:59 PM »
Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone has attempted double stone grafting and what was your success rate? Here is an excellent video that talks about different grafting techniques and double stone grafting is at 19 minutes and 20 seconds. Somebody else on this forum posted it in another thread and thus is one of my favorite grafting videos: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=19m18s&feature=youtu.be&v=hzBerXm1WCY

Multiple rootstock technology: http://www.philstar.com/agriculture/252796/promise-multiple-rootstock-technology?nomobile=1
Seems the key is to use seedlings with copper colored leaves because the seedling will still be relying on the seed for growth. I performed several double stone grafts about ten days ago and I should know whether I was successful or not in the next two weeks. One of the buds is already pushing out but that is because I only have limited scions to choose from and the buds were a bit over mature for my preference but there are smaller buds lower down the scion.

According to Bernie Dizons website, http://www.dizonexoticfruittrees.com/ref/technology.htm the multiple rootstocks is supposed to promote faster growth. Multiple rootstocks are also supposed to increase yields and inhibit alternate bearing.

This technique may be especially beneficial for anyone pushing the boundaries for where mango can grow. My trees purchased from Florida seem to grow very slowly, even after removing fruit every year for four years. I believe the double rootstocks and the fully intact tap root will help my double stone grafted trees grow with a lot more vigor.

You can see the double rootstocks at the base of the plant.





Edited to add link to multiple rootstock grafting
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=109.25
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 09:04:45 AM by simon_grow »

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 03:08:36 PM »
Double stone grafted Lemon Zest


Double bark graft on young Manilla rootstock


Next I'm going to try double greenwood grafting by using seedlings that are past the copper leaf stage. I feel this method of double grafting may be quicker and easier than innarching.

Simon

wslau

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 03:21:42 PM »
Thanks for sharing Simon....enjoyed the entire grafting video (background music too).
Let us know how the LZ does...but its probably going to grow pretty fast no matter which rootstock or how many rootstocks it has.  I see you used kent seedlings for rootstocks.  I have an LZ on manila and an LZ on Turpentine and they both seem to be growing vigorously in Socal compared to other varieties. 
For the double bark graft, I see you put on NDM and Maha...fairly slow growers in SoCal.  Curious to see how these slower growers do on manila rootstock. 
Good luck!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:26:19 PM by wslau »
Warren

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 04:22:02 PM »
I did a couple of these grafts two weeks ago.  They're useful when you have scions that are thicker than the rootstock.  It's pushing now I believe.  Must be the recent heat waves.

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 08:32:05 PM »
Warren, very true, Lemon Zest is a very vigorous grower even on whatever rootstock is used in Florida, however the growth is still droopy, at least in my yard. It's as if the rootstock can't keep up with the canopy. Tim gave me a LZ grafted onto Manilla rootstock and the scion grew so vigorously that the scion had a much larger diameter than the rootstock causing it to snap near the graft Union and killing the tree.

I used Kent seedlings for these initial grafts because my Manilla seedlings all seem to come up with green leaves and very thin stalks. My next set of double stone grafts will be using two different seedlings, one American and one Indian. Mostly I will be using Kent, Haden, Banganpalli and Mallika. I'm hoping there will be competition between the rootstocks so the taproot will go farther and deeper.

I did a double stone graft on NDM as well to see if the double rootstocks would increase the rate of growth of this relatively slow growing variety.

The double bark grafts with NDM and Leo's Maha Chanok onto Manilla rootstock was also done to see if there is better growth on this rootstock vs Turpentine or whatever rootstock is used in Florida.

Simon

Tropicdude

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 03:39:46 AM »
Shramjeevi  has some very good videos,  I cam across them a couple weeks ago on youtube.  I really like how slow and close up he does the grafts, and he repeats them.

And the one thing that made me say wow, was when he did the double stone graft.   I would think that this would have a higher success rate, than the single.

I will be trying this soon. which reminds me, that  I need to buy a few of the local poly mangoes,  before they are out of season.
William
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simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 05:57:02 PM »
The problem I've had with poly mangos, namely Manilla types, is that they have multiple small and weak sprouts come up and the leaves almost immediately turn green. According to the video, the leaves should be in the copper color stage.

Xshen, do you have any pictures of your grafts? Do you have any advice? Instead of following what the video did, I planted my stones/seeds directly into pots so that I wouldn't have to pull them up for grafting. I first tightly bound the seedlings together about 1 inch above soil level so that the two stalks were touching and then I cut off their tops below their lowest leaves depending on diameter of my scion. Here is an update with one bud pushing. This is a Lemon Zest grafted onto two Kent Seedlings.
Simon


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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2015, 02:41:17 AM »
Hey Simon,

Here is the one that I did.  The scion is Cowasjee patel X pirie and the rootstock is a manila less than 10 years old.  My dad's friend gave me this tree so I am not sure exactly how old is the rootstock.  Scions that took push very vigorously.

I tied the two manila shoots together at the base before decapitating.  If the scion becomes too small for the combined shoots, I would then shave off a bit of bark on the two shoots where they make contact.  Shave slowly and keep on shaving until you get a perfect match.  It's hard to see but the wound on the scion and rootstock is already starting to callous/heal.




simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2015, 11:19:24 PM »
Hello xshen, nice grafts. I would not consider those grafts as double stone grafts because it appears fresh seedlings were not used and there is only one rootstock instead of two. I think double softwood or double greenwood grafts is more fitting. The double grafts you did look very beneficial for scions that are too large.

The double stone grafts are supposed to really help with increased vigor due to having two root systems, both with intact taproots.

xshen

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2015, 11:33:44 PM »
Lol I just realized the lack of 2 rootstocks. Thanks for clarifying.

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2015, 09:50:30 AM »
So far my double stone grafted Lemon Zest looks good. The first bud that pushed appears to be an actual push and not due to use of over mature scion.

Simon




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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2015, 01:32:07 PM »
Nice work Simon! Looks like a really fun graft to do. Been wanting to try this graft for a while.

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2015, 05:25:46 PM »
It has been exactly two weeks since I performed double stone grafting with this Lemon Zest scion and the growth has been amazing! It's pushed out about two inches in length and the spread of the leaves is approximately 6 inches wide. All this in just two weeks since grafting! The union is already calloused over and you can see the expansion of the union has caused the parafilm to break. Upon close inspection of both rootstocks, it appears that both rootstocks are fused to the scion on at least one side. I cannot see through the parafilm on the other side.

I am taking a chance and I'm already putting this newly grafted plant into part sun because I want to see if I can quickly acclimate it to outdoor life in the hopes that I can plant it into the ground within two weeks. I have lost a couple of grafted seedlings by not acclimating them slowly enough but I am hoping that the two root systems will help it acclimate faster.

I want to plant this multiple rootstock tree into the ground ASAP so that the roots do not wind around in circles in its current pot. I'm hoping that if I get good results with these initial test plantings, other SoCal growers will start adapting this technique and also the In Situ grafting of seedlings planted directly into the ground.

Leo Manuel, Eunice and others have already proved that top working healthy seedlings planted directly into the ground will yield excellent growth and fruition of Mango trees so I will not experiment any further as the point is already proven. See this thread for an example: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=2194.0. Instead, I will be focusing on two other techniques that do not require multiple years to grow a strong and established seedling. These two techniques are the namesake of this thread, Double Stone Grafting and In Situ grafting of young seedling in the greenwood stage. I'm hoping that these two techniques will yield similar results to grafting onto established seedlings but in a shorter amount of time.

Simon






Samu

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2015, 01:43:35 PM »
Simon,
thanks for sharing your experiments. I also like to try these, preferably the seedlings planted directly in the ground, method, soon...!
Keep us updated, your results so far look promising!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 02:24:01 PM by Samu »
Sam

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2015, 06:33:46 AM »
I think that your contribution on mango seedlings are amazing, as much as your contribution on avocado seedlings.
Personally biggest issues for zone pusher (as i consider myself) are the lack of good starting material, and i'm not talking here of any fancy variety of mango: I'm speaking of scions of the correct size of the rootstock you hope to graft, or seedlings of the correct variety of mango, and so on. Usually i consider myself very lucky if i see, at the grocery store anything different from a Tommy Atkins.
Aside from this rant, what i was willing to say is: the idea of seedling grafting is very interesting specially for those who are searching for a bushy growth to their mangos. Which in my opinion is mandatory for potted growing, and also for growing them in a enclosure, because it allows for LOW grafts. That kind of plants are very rare (if present at all) in Europe, so any technique for production plants with a low graft is very welcome!
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simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2015, 10:26:03 AM »
Hello Sam, I performed a couple grafts of seedlings In Situ, meaning I planted the seeds directly into the ground and left them there and grafted them in place. My seedlings were about 8-10 inches tall when I grafted them about two weeks ago and they are pushing new growth. One seedling was grafted with Maha Chanok and is planted at the base of a Florida grafted Maha that hasent grown much in the last two years. It just keeps pushing flowers. I want to see if this In Situ grafted seedling can catch up with this established larger grafted tree. This In Situ grafted seedling has a single rootstock.

Thanks for the compliments Pancrazio but it's the OG CRFGers like Leo Manuel that showed me the way. The double stone grafting technique is very useful for scions that are too large. My double stone grafted trees should have a very low branching structure and hopefully will be more productive with the two rootstocks.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2015, 11:17:25 AM »
Here is a picture of an In Situ grafted Nam Doc Mai and Lemon Zest grafted on a single rootstock. These were green wood grafted but unlike in the video, I did not leave any leaves. I think I will get better success rate if I left some leaves below the graft to supply energy but the stalk was too thin above the lowest leaves. By grafting below the lowest set of leaves, there is less chance for the rootstock to sprout new branches.

Simon




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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2015, 03:59:33 PM »
lol I was the first one to post about it here. I'm glad it's working well.

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2015, 04:56:02 PM »
Thanks for sharing simmon. Do you store your grafts in a greenhouse or in the shade? thanks and good job as always  ;D

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2015, 06:07:40 PM »

Darkcoolboo, did you try the double stone grafts? If so how are they doing? Thanks for sharing any info you have.

Hello Socal10b, for the double stone grafts, the video recommended to move the grafted seedling into a poly house but they don't use parafilm. I moved my double grafted seedlings into my garage and gave it full darkness for one day and then I put it under T5 lighting until I saw the scion pushing growth. Once they start pushing, I take them into the yard and give them full sun if it's not too hot. If it's hot and dry, I protect it from direct overhead sun by putting them in the shade.

For my In Situ grafts, they are in the ground so I moved a potted tree next to them to give them partial shade. I've also done many grafts on older Manilla rootstock in direct sun and those also took.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2015, 01:30:55 PM »
Hello everyone, I just wanted to share my experience with double stone grafting in case others wanted to give it a try.

Instead of planting my Mango seeds directly into the ground, I planted them into pots so I wouldn't have to uproot them for grafting. You have to know which end the sprout will come out or else the sprouts will be too far apart for double stone grafting. If the sprouts come up far apart from each other, you can just pull them up and repot them next to each other.

Once the seedlings come up, I wait until the leaves are almost fully expanded but still in the copper color stage. I use parafilm and tie the two seedlings together at the base prior to topping and grafting so that they will not move around during the grafting process.

When you make your vertical cut down the double stems, be very careful that you are cutting both stems right down the middle. The seedling stems are very soft and it is easy to miss align the cuts.

When you wrap the union, you have to make sure that the soft stems of the seedlings don't miss align while you are wrapping. They are so soft that it is very easy to squish the stalk of one seedling over the stalk of the other, especially if you like to do really tight wraps like I do.

Simon





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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2015, 05:09:58 PM »
Hey Simon,

Here is the one that I did.  The scion is Cowasjee patel X pirie and the rootstock is a manila less than 10 years old.  My dad's friend gave me this tree so I am not sure exactly how old is the rootstock.  Scions that took push very vigorously.

I tied the two manila shoots together at the base before decapitating.  If the scion becomes too small for the combined shoots, I would then shave off a bit of bark on the two shoots where they make contact.  Shave slowly and keep on shaving until you get a perfect match.  It's hard to see but the wound on the scion and rootstock is already starting to callous/heal.





Very nice grafts. I just want to know why the scions needed to be taped up completely? I thought it's enough just to tape up and cover the grafting areas to secure and protect the graft join. Covering the scion completely to avoid it being dried out? Did you use a small plastic "tube" to cover the graft as shown in the Indian farmer video, which served to prevent the lost of moisture. 

Thanks,
Sapote

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2015, 08:57:35 PM »
Hey Sapote, I covered the entire scion and graft Union to prevent drying out. In the video, they put plastic bags over the scion and moved the grafted plants into a poly house in order to limit evaporation and to prevent direct sunlight from drying out the new grafts, I think. I use Buddy tape or Parafilm to wrap my scions instead of using the bag.

I also took my new grafts into the garage and gave them one day of full darkness followed by about 18 hours of T5 lighting at 3 feet distance from top of plants. After about 3 days at 3 feet, I move the light to two feet from the top of the plants for the next two days. Then I give them two days at about 6-8 inches from the top of the light. After this, I acclimate them to outdoor condition. My schedule and lighting adjustments change depending on the growth of the graft. I will accelerate the higher light growing conditions if the grafted plant is growing fast. My initial double grafted Lemon Zest is already adapted to full sun and its leaves are just starting to turn green. We've had some rainy weather that has slowed its growth.
Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2015, 10:39:18 PM »
Here is an update of the original double stone grafted Lemon Zest. It was grafted on 06/19/15 and was planted into the ground today. First picture is before I put it into the ground. Second picture shows a small sprout that came up from one of the seeds. I've had new sprouts come up on a couple of my double stone grafted Mangos. I remove them as I see them and the plants seem to be doing fine. The third picture is after I planted into the ground on a small mound. You can see my soil is clay and rocks. I topped it with some good potting soil with minerals and mycorrhizae.

Simon






sapote

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Re: Double stone grafting for Mango
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2015, 10:19:40 PM »
Hi Simon,

I think I also watched other video from India with root stock on ground, and I didn't see they used anything to protect the graft from hot sun. I recently grafted a few different scions to my MD Malila which was damaged from this winter and there are many new shoots now for top work. I cut strips out out plastic bag for grafting tape as in the video, and cover with plastic tubes. But I also cover the clear tubes with stapled white paper for sun protection. It has been over a week and all 3 scions are green but no new grow pushed out yet.

From Xshen: " If the scion becomes too small for the combined shoots, I would then shave off a bit of bark on the two shoots where they make contact." I'm not clear on this. Shave off the root stock bark to match with scion doesn't help, I think, because it loose the cambium which is crucial for grafting. No?

Sapote

 

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