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Author Topic: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)  (Read 3925 times)

Mike T

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 08:29:05 PM »
If delayed incompatability becomes an issue Mike Fabians' experience may be worth noting.There are quite a few options.


DELAYED INCOMPATIBILITY IN GRAFTING TROPICAL FRUIT TREES
And What Can Be Done About It

I have been working at Limberlost Nursery for 24 years and through the years I have noticed (or it has been brought to my attention) a lot of problems regarding fruit trees.

If a graft is not compatible, it will not graft together and will not grow. However, if the rootstock and scion are partially compatible, all sorts of problems can develop years down the track.

So here are some examples of delayed incompatibility:

• takes a long time to grow together (Longan, Macadamia);

• lots of suckering (Grumichama, Longan, Mangosteen);

• slow-growing (Longan, Pulasan);

• new shoots keep dying back years later (Durian, Pulasan);

• short stumpy growth (Durian, Longan);

• lack of vigour (Durian, Mamea, Purple Mangosteen, Avocado, Pulasan, Longan);

• canker on trunks (Duku, Pulasan);

• lots of fungus problems (Pulasan, Durian, Avocado);

• premature death (Durian, Avocado);

• marked differences in growth rate or vigour of scion and stock (Mangosteen);

• smaller fruit or leaves compared with seedlings or marcotted (or cutting) trees (Star Apple, Longan).

Delayed incompatibility can develop 10-15-20 years later and trees may have a lot of fruit during that time. However, grafted trees may take 4-5 years to come into bearing, and they should have more than 5-10 years of fruit-producing life.

After all, seedling trees can live and produce fruit for many years (10-50+). So it stands to reason that all of the problems come because of the graft union not being perfect and unable to translocate all the nutrients that the trees need.

So if we can somehow bypass the graft union, some of the problems will be solved. Some fruit trees can be propagated from cuttings or marcots but not all. Those that will not take this way can be propagated by nurse root graft. This means that the grafting is done very low on the seedling and once the graft has united, it can be put at least 4-5 inches or more below ground level so that in time (a few months to a few years) the scion wood will grow a new partial or complete root system above the graft union. Nurse root grafting is well documented in some grafting books.

So I am not recommending anything new, only suggesting the nurse root graft, which has been used for many years in the propagation of apples, pears, grapes and rhododendrons, be used on tropical fruiting trees.

I'd like to point out that trees planted much deeper than the original pot soil level grow very well. Here are a few examples which have come to my attention.

About twenty years ago, I read The World Was My Garden by Fairchild. He was a plant collector for the USA Department of Agriculture around 1910-20. He wrote that when the Purple Mangosteen was grafted onto Platonia insignis and Garcinia mestonii, the Mangosteen made roots. What he failed to mention was the type of graft used. As the Mangosteen does not make aerial roots, the graft had to be a nurse root graft.

Shifting sand dunes at Cape Flattery and Fraser Island (and everywhere else on the earth) continually cover plants, but if the plants are not covered completely they do not die. In some cases they grow roots high up from the original sand level, then when the sand shifts again back to the previous level, these roots can be seen hanging from the trunks.

Twenty years ago, a friend planted some fifty jackfruit trees. They were seven to eight feet tall in pots. He dug three- to four-feet-deep holes with a post hole digger and planted the Jackfruit seedlings at that depth. Not only are they still doing very well, but have provided a lot of fruit for the Sydney market.

Ten years ago, I grafted a Grumichama. It kept suckering, so I mounted up the soil about a foot high around the plant. This stopped the suckering. Since then, it has been dug up twice and replanted (there were plenty of new roots above the graft) and it is bearing and doing well.

We planted a grafted Soursop tree a few years ago at the nursery. A year later, the soil in this area was built up by two feet. This new soil covered the Soursop half-way up, but it was not adversely affected and is still growing strongly.
 

UPDATE ON DELAYED INCOMPATIBILITY WITH GRAFTED FRUIT TREES

I wrote an article on this subject which appeared in September/October 1996 Rare Fruit magazine 'The Exotics' No 100. At the time, I thought some people in the nursery industry may be offended but they were not. Just recently Peter Young from Birdwood Nursery talked about the same problem affecting the citrus (worst of all the dreadful Trifoliata suckering). I am referring to 'Australian Horticulture' of August/September 2001. I am very happy that someone else is noticing the problem and is doing something about it.

One may ask why, if grafting is so troublesome, do we do it. First of all, we can guarantee that the grafted tree will produce fruit, and if the selection is good, the fruit may be the best of thousands of seedling trees. All types of fruiting trees go through this selection process, thus providing us with such good stone fruit, pears, apples, citrus etc.

Since 1966, I have found that a few more fruit trees prefer the nurse root graft. (Editor's note - a nurse root graft is where the tree is planted with the graft below ground level as per illustration.) I will list these and give you the reason for each.

First of all I would like to bring to your attention some of the plants which have latex in them which will benefit from the nurse graft - lucmo, ross sapote, star apple and mundu (yellow mangosteen).

With normal grafting, lucmo, ross sapote and star apple have much smaller fruit than the parent tree but with the nurse grafting, larger fruit will be produced. Although mundu grafts well by normal grafting methods, it may produce larger fruit by the nurse root graft because it is in the latex category.

For the last one hundred years or so, many people have tried to graft mangosteen. I started 25 years ago and unsuccessfully tried all sorts of rootstock in the mangosteen family. (Looking back on it now, I am sure the further one moves from the grafting species, the less chance there is of success. That seems to be the golden rule. However, there are a few exceptions, as with all golden rules - citrus, okari nut, stone fruits and custard apple).

At present I have twelve fruit trees on the Limberlost fruit list on which I use nurse root graft - avocado, custard apple, governor's plum, white sapote, duku, kaffir lime, yellow grumichama, durian, giant lucmo, mundu, ross sapote, star apple.

Growing avocado on the tropical coast is a real problem, with only a few varieties producing fruit. I selected a few seedling trees which have good fruit and bear heavily. I use nurse root grafts on them to improve the health and life span of the trees.

Governor's plum root stock can have very nasty thorns, so it is preferable to place the graft below ground level. White sapote and duku are very slow to grow when grafted, but with the root graft, theyseem to be much faster and healthier.

I also use root graft on some citrus, mainly kaffir lime which produce good healthy growth. Kaffir lime will also grow from cuttings, but with difficulty.

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 09:43:33 PM »
"One may ask why, if grafting is so troublesome,why do we do it?"

At the risk of alienating many fellow nurseryman: I think the answer is quite obvious. Nurseries have a much higher markup on grafted trees than on plants propagated in other different ways. So they tend to concentrate to a great extent, or even to the exclusion of anything else, only on grafted trees. Ofcourse there are very many situations where grafting is the best way to go, but there are also so many occasions when it's not: seedlings, cuttings, air layers, work very well or even better in many cases. But you can't charge very much for a seedling plant. So why not graft it and charge 3 to 4 times as much? Unfortunately there are many cases where grafting a plant can stunt it and it would have been better to go with a seedling. OK there you have it Mike, Confessions of a Nurseryman.  ;)
Oscar

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 04:10:44 AM »
Oscar there is no better place to spill ya guts (confess) on grafting.In fruit circles Mike Fabians' name is uttered in hushed tones, such is the respect for him.In my clumsy grafting vs marcotting thread that turned into a triple bunger composite question, the issues he raises are ones I was trying to get across.I only came across this quote today.Grafting is certainly not better on many occasions and can reduce fruit quality.Many propagators don't want to hear about it.

Berto

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2012, 10:05:35 AM »
Final Report from the authors of the Fairchild inverted root grafting article.

Yesterday, I visited with Richard Campbell and Noris Ledesma.  Both or them stated that inverted root grafting has been successful  when the rootstock and the budwood are from the same type of trees.  For example, mamey grafted on mamey or canistel grafted on canistel.  They said that they observed some problems when mamey was grafted on canistel rootstock.

I saw several canistel trees that were grafted using the above mentioned technique.  The trees were short in stature and were absolutely covered with flowers.  According to Dr. Campell and Ms. Ledesma, the trees started fruting earlier than trees grafted by traditional grafting techniques.

Adam,
Please keep us informed about your progress!

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2012, 11:56:45 AM »
In California, they use the nurse root graft you mention to produce clonal rootstock for avocados on a commercial scale (for phytophthora resistance). Brokaw Nursery in Ventura is one such nursery that practices this technique. Interesting stuff.


Jeff  :-)

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2012, 01:31:52 PM »
Thanks for good info Berto!

Now I might have to graft u a tree!  I have two seedlings left of greensapote to invert root graft....

Maybe I do one for u and Tomas?

But...."Only if u want it!" (Eric Wright R.I.P.  :'()

Final Report from the authors of the Fairchild inverted root grafting article.

Yesterday, I visited with Richard Campbell and Noris Ledesma.  Both or them stated that inverted root grafting has been successful  when the rootstock and the budwood are from the same type of trees.  For example, mamey grafted on mamey or canistel grafted on canistel.  They said that they observed some problems when mamey was grafted on canistel rootstock.

I saw several canistel trees that were grafted using the above mentioned technique.  The trees were short in stature and were absolutely covered with flowers.  According to Dr. Campell and Ms. Ledesma, the trees started fruting earlier than trees grafted by traditional grafting techniques.

Adam,
Please keep us informed about your progress!

fruitlovers

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2012, 05:01:03 PM »
Final Report from the authors of the Fairchild inverted root grafting article.

Yesterday, I visited with Richard Campbell and Noris Ledesma.  Both or them stated that inverted root grafting has been successful  when the rootstock and the budwood are from the same type of trees.  For example, mamey grafted on mamey or canistel grafted on canistel.  They said that they observed some problems when mamey was grafted on canistel rootstock.

I saw several canistel trees that were grafted using the above mentioned technique.  The trees were short in stature and were absolutely covered with flowers.  According to Dr. Campell and Ms. Ledesma, the trees started fruting earlier than trees grafted by traditional grafting techniques.

Adam,
Please keep us informed about your progress!

They published a paper reporting their success with inverted root graft. It's on the Fairchild website somewhere. Don't have the link right now.
Oscar

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2012, 05:29:19 PM »
The third picture down on this page shows Mrs Ledesma crouched next to an inverted rootstock canistel. The tree is barely 3 feet tall but is several years old. I think the cultivar is E-11, which I'm told is a vigorous growing canistel.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 06:39:47 PM »
Mr Adam, how did your inverted graft go?

Out of my 10 seeds, 4 sprouted, and only 2 of those had thick enough roots / sufficient vigor to graft. Both of mine are still alive and one looks like it's unfurling a new set of leaves. I be pretty excited.

If we could get access to green sapote seeds here in FL, we could crank out a lot of these babies. But then Gary Zill would catch on and drive us all out of the market with production-line quality inverted green sap grafts. Heck I guess that might not be so bad .. 'cause I'd buy mine from him :-).
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 08:54:24 PM »
Mr Adam, how did your inverted graft go?

Out of my 10 seeds, 4 sprouted, and only 2 of those had thick enough roots / sufficient vigor to graft. Both of mine are still alive and one looks like it's unfurling a new set of leaves. I be pretty excited.

If we could get access to green sapote seeds here in FL, we could crank out a lot of these babies. But then Gary Zill would catch on and drive us all out of the market with production-line quality inverted green sap grafts. Heck I guess that might not be so bad .. 'cause I'd buy mine from him :-).

scions are still alive and look like they are swelling, but have not pushed yet...I did two wrapped with buddy tape (leaves removed), and one a few days ago with a bag over top and a few leaves left on, and cut in half.

we shall see!  I hope at least two make it...I will keep you posted oookiemon.

thanks for inspiring me to attempt this graft

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »
RALK ON! The FSHS article that Mrs Ledesma and Dr Campbell wrote said that the grafts usually push within 4 weeks, so you should be seeing some activity pretty soon! I'm not selling mine; it's going into the ground!

Mr Adam, how did your inverted graft go?

Out of my 10 seeds, 4 sprouted, and only 2 of those had thick enough roots / sufficient vigor to graft. Both of mine are still alive and one looks like it's unfurling a new set of leaves. I be pretty excited.

If we could get access to green sapote seeds here in FL, we could crank out a lot of these babies. But then Gary Zill would catch on and drive us all out of the market with production-line quality inverted green sap grafts. Heck I guess that might not be so bad .. 'cause I'd buy mine from him :-).

scions are still alive and look like they are swelling, but have not pushed yet...I did two wrapped with buddy tape (leaves removed), and one a few days ago with a bag over top and a few leaves left on, and cut in half.

we shall see!  I hope at least two make it...I will keep you posted oookiemon.

thanks for inspiring me to attempt this graft
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2012, 04:51:32 PM »
jeff,

my two inverted green sapote grafts (buddy taped) failed!

they rotted!

I think the scion is very succeptible to infection when all those leaves are removed, leaving open wounds, and wrapped with buddy tape...must be to moist??

my last graft I attempted with a bag over top, and leaves left on scion, looks much better.  I will keep u updated, and I'll be sure to show off my handy work (if it takes).

so I don't reccomend removing leaves and wrapping with parafilm or buddy tape.

say a prayer for my last graft, I hope it makes it out of the bag, and into the full sun!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:54:06 PM by ASaffron »

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2012, 05:10:15 PM »
jeff,

my two inverted green sapote grafts (buddy taped) failed!

they rotted!

I think the scion is very succeptible to infection when all those leaves are removed, leaving open wounds, and wrapped with buddy tape...must be to moist??

my last graft I attempted with a bag over top, and leaves left on scion, looks much better.  I will keep u updated, and I'll be sure to show off my handy work (if it takes).

so I don't reccomend removing leaves and wrapping with parafilm or buddy tape.

say a prayer for my last graft, I hope it makes it out of the bag, and into the full sun!

Sorry to hear that. :( Hope your last graft succeeds.
Alexi

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 11:03:05 PM »
Final Report from the authors of the Fairchild inverted root grafting article.

Yesterday, I visited with Richard Campbell and Noris Ledesma.  Both or them stated that inverted root grafting has been successful  when the rootstock and the budwood are from the same type of trees.  For example, mamey grafted on mamey or canistel grafted on canistel. 

What about using canistel as a rootstock for grafting sapote mamey doint it in a tradionnal way(top cleft or side veneer)? has anyone tried it or heard of? that would be an interesting point for me here where mamey seeds are very scarce not to say non existing currently.
Samuel
Reunion Island

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 09:41:35 AM »
 
 Hi,

 Felipe mentioned, that in the Canary Islands, they tried canistel as a rootstock for mamey and it did not
 work. On the other hand, he posted a picture of a mamey grafted onto lucuma (P. obovata) growing
 nicely.
 
 You may try to look for his posts to find that particular picture.
Sιrgio Duarte
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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2012, 11:13:04 AM »
thanks Sergio for that info,

i will check it.

Unfortunately we don't have lucuma growing around here even though some people who may know canistel tend to call it lucuma...
Samuel
Reunion Island

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2012, 11:28:21 AM »
pupe! I did the leaves on thing, and both are growing. Hopefully they keep growing!

jeff,

my two inverted green sapote grafts (buddy taped) failed!

they rotted!

I think the scion is very succeptible to infection when all those leaves are removed, leaving open wounds, and wrapped with buddy tape...must be to moist??

my last graft I attempted with a bag over top, and leaves left on scion, looks much better.  I will keep u updated, and I'll be sure to show off my handy work (if it takes).

so I don't reccomend removing leaves and wrapping with parafilm or buddy tape.

say a prayer for my last graft, I hope it makes it out of the bag, and into the full sun!
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2012, 11:56:05 AM »
I had three shots, and I believe all are failures!

the last time I tried, I bagged the top and left leaves on...now leaves are dropping!  so I don't think it will make it, even though its still green.

I need more green sapote seeds (seedlings) now!!!

more test subjects to mutilate!!

thanks for sharing cookie monster!
I hope yours take, so u can show us a pic soon.


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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2014, 03:28:30 PM »
does anyone know of video where the IRG is demonstrated?  I think I would understand it more if I could view it in real-time.  My brain seems to have a disconnect with written instructions.
~Jeff

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Re: Green Sapote, Inverted Root Graft (photos of attempt)
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2014, 04:27:29 PM »
i don't think anyone has made a video for that one....

but fairchild has a webpage (with some pictures)

it's really quite simply, take a small seedling...about 2-5 month old (more or less) from sprouting....

flip it upside down, and graft into the tap root.

the hard part is knowing how cut the top of the the rootstock off, so it won't grow back...I usually cut the vegetative shoot on the rootstock, all the way back, below the first set of roots (closest to soil line).

even so, I still get some suckers from time to time on my inverted Ross, but they are easy to remove, and easy to identify.


 

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