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Author Topic: Compact Mango Suggestions  (Read 61614 times)

zands

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2015, 09:30:42 AM »
I'm voting with you.  IMO this thread should concentrate only on those trees that naturally tend to have a compact dwarf forum without human intervention.  A monkey can use a pair of pruning shears.  That's not what this thread is about, or so I thought.
 
Disagree. It took 10 different explanations and reading comments here about tip pruning before I understood it. Whatever. This thread is not my project.

bsbullie

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2015, 09:35:50 AM »
That tree looks mighty young.  As you said, who knows what is and has been done to it.  With that said, I cant make any comments to how something will grow in Houston (the average lows for the winter months are at least 10 degrees cooler than in South Florida) however a mature Mallika here will have no problem reaching 25+ feet.

To take this one step further, how a variety grows in different locations/climates and and what rootstocks can vary greatly.  One thing I feel some people have no clue of is just how large a mango can get as it ages, especially with the girth of the trunk (I am talking a natuarally grown tree, not a bonsai).
- Rob

bsbullie

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2015, 09:37:43 AM »
I'm voting with you.  IMO this thread should concentrate only on those trees that naturally tend to have a compact dwarf forum without human intervention.  A monkey can use a pair of pruning shears.  That's not what this thread is about, or so I thought.
 
Disagree. It took 10 different explanations and reading comments here about tip pruning before I understood it. Whatever. This thread is not my project.

Zands - you are focusing on very young trees and affecting their infantile and juvenile growth.  Come see me in 20+ years and let me know how that tree looks and if you are still tip pruning.
- Rob

zands

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2015, 09:52:26 AM »
Zands - you are focusing on very young trees and affecting their infantile and juvenile growth.  Come see me in 20+ years and let me know how that tree looks and if you are still tip pruning.

Zands - you are focusing on very young trees and affecting their infantile and juvenile growth.
You are saying you affect the future growth habits by tip pruning young? So the tree turns out more bushy?

Tip pruning is mostly for younger trees and can be done a few times a year if the tree is vigorous. No fruits to get in the way. I tip pruned some 8 year old mango trees this year. But much more limited and done just once after the harvest. General I am only going to tip prune branches I can reach or pull down with a walking cane. You can find canes in thrift stores and yard sales. But I have gotten out my extension pole pruner and tip pruned when it was really needed. Did some last month

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2015, 10:07:17 AM »
Given the same location, genetic factors largely drive size - vigor, internode length, etc. and then there are the environmental factors.  Let's use avocados as an example.  What Carlos can get out of say....a Lamb Hass in one year would take me 5 years in spite of the fact that my greenhouse trees receive more heat than his in the field from May - September which is a bad thing.  They also receive less light and rainwater.  I would guess that photosynthesis, carbo production, is best around 85F for most tropicals.    Naturally a Holiday will stay and be much smaller than a Hass in 10 years given the same location growing side by side.  That's my focus.  There comes a point in your life where you need to understand and work with mother nature not against her. 

Mark

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2015, 10:13:03 AM »
Disagree. It took 10 different explanations and reading comments here about tip pruning before I understood it. Whatever. This thread is not my project.

Hey Zands, don't mean to sound trite but this thread is not about pruning techniques.  It's about varieties that are considered dwarf, you know, "condo" trees. 

Perhaps we need to start a thread such as "How to keep the typical mango tree compact and manageable".  And please, could we have at least one post that doesn't mention the term "pug"!  ;D

WGphil

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2015, 10:42:06 AM »
I just planted a Providence and have a Fairchild in the ground that I love.  No need to choose when both  is a better answer. 

You can keep a Fairchild at 12 feet and it is slower growing so your work lasts longer.  I have an LZ also I just planted this season.  Pruning is different on each as the Lz is moving fast and up. 

tex

If I were you I would buy Pickering and keep them in buckets as they grow..  You can move them in and out with your tractor to protect them when they are full size.   They stay small and produce a very good fruit, early. 

You will get your fruit reward quickest that way, imo.   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:45:33 AM by WGphil »

zands

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2015, 11:30:20 AM »

This thread is about compact mangoes. Why be a purist? Why be limited to the naturally compact ones? People want more compact mango varieties to choose from. How about the new Zill varieties since 2010? If some of them can be kept compact via intelligent pruning then what's the difference? For space limited members here that only have room for 2-3 mango trees, they will be willing to tip prune and regular prune if it means more choice. That's my thinking. It's not much work to attend to three mango trees that are kept compact anyway.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2015, 11:43:17 AM »
If I were you I would buy Pickering and keep them in buckets as they grow..  You can move them in and out with your tractor to protect them when they are full size.   They stay small and produce a very good fruit, early. 

You will get your fruit reward quickest that way, imo.


I am replacing a Pickering with a Pickering I just lost to root girdling.   :(  PIN just sold out of everything so it will be Feb. Am planning now.  I don't want (need) more than 3 mango trees.

I grow in a large greenhouse, "in ground" using RootBuilder pots.  Here's an older thread. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.msg96609#msg96609 

zands

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2015, 11:48:55 AM »
I am replacing a Pickering with a Pickering I just lost to root girdling.   :(  PIN just sold out of everything so it will be Feb. Am planning now.  I don't want (need) more than 3 mango trees.

Pickering is always  a good pick for a compact mango planting. I know I am repeating things, but it fruits fairly soon after planting and it fruits at the expense of branch and leaf growth. So does nam doc mai #4.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2015, 11:54:38 AM »


This thread is about compact mangoes. Why be a purist? Why be limited to the naturally compact ones? People want more compact mango varieties to choose from. How about the new Zill varieties since 2010? If some of them can be kept compact via intelligent pruning then what's the difference? For space limited members here that only have room for 2-3 mango trees, they will be willing to tip prune and regular prune if it means more choice. That's my thinking. It's not much work to attend to three mango trees that are kept compact anyway.


It's not about making some monster a compact tree.  it's about buying a naturally compact, condo type tree and growing it with minimal effort.  Like I said, I have a friend who has kindly offered Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart which he just grafted.  They get too big so for now I'm opting out.  If I was living in Brownsville I'd take 'em in a heartbeat.

Zands, ya know how I pruned my peach trees last spring?  With a chain saw.  I took them down to 6', straight across butch haircut and they're now at 9 - 10' again.  This is all about time, age, health, etc.  I'm 66 and getting tired of being a slave to my plants so I'm cutting back.  The first biz to go is this frickin' Xmas tree biz, it's killing me. Next 2 seasons and I'm a free man!  Been there, done that.



ohhhhhhhhhhhh, the drama.  ;D

« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 11:58:02 AM by Mark in Texas »

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2015, 12:27:45 PM »
I wanted to try to compile a list of mangoes with the following characteristics:

  • Compact / Natural 'dwarf' (i.e. does not have to be in a container to be dwarfed)
  • Bushy and/or spreading style growing habit
  • Good producer
  • Needs relatively minor pruning to keep size in check which will not adversely affect productivity
  • Quality fruit (full flavor, fiberless, etc.)

Rob, Mark, zands and WGphil

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I really do think this is a useful discussion and is getting to the heart of this idea. I want to point out something in the original post shown above in bold. : Needs relatively minor pruning to keep size in check which will not adversely affect productivity

There are so many great mangoes that are really vigorous. Let's take Lemon Zest for example. Lemon Zest grows very fast and will become a huge tree in no time. So let's say you wanted to keep it to 8 feet tall. You would be pruning so much material so often it would be a constant struggle / chore. I also doubt you would get much production out of the tree because it would spend so much energy replacing the canopy that you keep taking away.

As Mark and Rob says, this is not a post about trying to make a large tree a bonsai, it defeats the whole purpose of a naturally small tree that produces well or a tree that can be kept small with minimal effort and still produce well.

So what do I mean by minimal effort?

In my mind it means:
- tip pruning once or twice a season before harvest
- minor pruning for shape / size control once after harvest (removal of a couple of interior upright branches. This will be done from ground level because the tree is small.)
- If the tree is too big and you have to use a ladder to do most of the controlling, or if you have to stand in the tree to do interior pruning then I would not consider it a compact mango

There is no mango tree that requires no effort. Unless you are in a mango grove set up in rows, there will always be obstacles in a growers yard that require navigating (adjacent fruit trees, perimeter walls, fences, walkways, etc.). So it is likely that even a natural dwarf like Pickering will require some pruning in its life.

It is this idea of 'minimal' pruning that interests me.

So what do you think, can Mallika be kept to a reasonable size/height (8-10 feet) with minimal effort? Or will it simply become too unwieldy as it gets older?


« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:31:36 PM by starch »
- Mark

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2015, 12:55:57 PM »
Awesome compilation, starch!
Putting together all the observations (some of them contradictory!) about a variety will help others decide whether to venture that way or not. Yes, some mango varieties are naturally compact, others can (hopefully!!) be kept compact with a little more effort. So newbies can at least get their eyes opened a bit more before planting.
I have several varieties of mangoes, and 3 of avocados. Also have a lot of hibiscus, schefflera and crape myrtles, plus plenty of lawn. Keeps me busy. The day will come (hopefully not for 15-20 years) when it all gets too much to handle and I'll have to cut back. Till then, no regrets about planting so many things, or for having to spread yards and yards of mulch around.
Plant and experiment and enjoy. If things get out of hand, chainsaw.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2015, 01:25:41 PM »
It is this idea of 'minimal' pruning that interests me.

So what do you think, can Mallika be kept to a reasonable size/height (8-10 feet) with minimal effort? Or will it simply become too unwieldy as it gets older?

Yeppers.

Did you see the previous page?  I posted a fella's 6 year old Mallika that is only 3' tall. After the harvest I removed at least 1/3 of the top of my Mallika and as soon as it starts pushing again I'm hitting it with Bonzi, a PGR.

simon_grow

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2015, 06:21:45 PM »
This is a great conversation with lots of good points. I feel that Genetics plays a big part in a "compact mango" but perhaps there are techniques we can use on our trees to get the desired result while overcoming some obstacles that would otherwise cause one to overlook a cultivar.

For Example, the Ice Cream mango is a wonderful, no Excellent Top Teir Mango but it is very slow growing and may not be very productive. There are reports of it being both a good and bad producer. I know some of you are sick and tired of hearing it but what if Double Stone Grafting could give you a highly productive and more vigorous growing tree that is possibly more disease resistant, use specific rootstock, and grows more compact due to grafting effects( reported from Bernie Dizon in Phillipines).

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0

Due to the ultra low nature of Double Stone Grafts, you can theoretically get branching just 6-8 inches from the ground. If you are growing in a large pot, this will give you a compact bushy plant that is elevated off the floor by about 2+ feet allowing for good air circulation in order to avoid disease and to keep the fruit off the ground. A bushy tree will have more growth points which increases the odds of more flowers and fruit. Heavy fruiting will use up much of the trees resources further reducing the growth of the tree.

I will soon be performing several DSGs on Ice Cream and maybe Julie and I will keep everyone updated. I hear the argument against growing great tasting Mango varieties such as Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart because they are too vigorous but I hope you will taste one of these mangos before deciding it may be too much work to prune and keep small while being productive. For me personally, taste is number one.

Simon

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #140 on: September 09, 2015, 08:28:52 PM »
Starch,  thank you so much for this thread. It has been very educational for me to see what the folks on here have to say on the subject.  It has definitely made me think of what type of mango I may try to plant in the ground (only got space for 1 variety so gotta make it count). 

Has there been any thought to ranking the list?  It would be subjective and difficult to evaluate since everyone's views are different let alone some may not have experience with a number of the varieties on the list.  Maybe do a top 3-5 from the list?  That would seem interesting. Just a thought.

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2015, 11:01:51 PM »
Awesome compilation, starch!
Putting together all the observations (some of them contradictory!) about a variety will help others decide whether to venture that way or not. Yes, some mango varieties are naturally compact, others can (hopefully!!) be kept compact with a little more effort. So newbies can at least get their eyes opened a bit more before planting.

Thanks StPeteMango! Yeah, that was definitely what I wanted to show, that there is some contradictory info on cultivars. There is certainly not any clear cut consensus on anything (except maybe Pickering, most everyone seems to love it!).

Plant and experiment and enjoy. If things get out of hand, chainsaw.

Indeed :)
- Mark

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #142 on: September 09, 2015, 11:04:56 PM »
Yeppers.

Did you see the previous page?  I posted a fella's 6 year old Mallika that is only 3' tall. After the harvest I removed at least 1/3 of the top of my Mallika and as soon as it starts pushing again I'm hitting it with Bonzi, a PGR.

Nice, yeah I think this is the behavior that a lot of members were describing. However, I do wonder how it will react to training when it gets older (like Rob was saying, Mallika can become a 25 ft mango tree) and it wants to make the canopy of a larger tree.

However, it does seem encouraging that many people have been training Mallika successfully so far.
- Mark

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #143 on: September 09, 2015, 11:10:15 PM »
This is a great conversation with lots of good points. I feel that Genetics plays a big part in a "compact mango" but perhaps there are techniques we can use on our trees to get the desired result while overcoming some obstacles that would otherwise cause one to overlook a cultivar.

For Example, the Ice Cream mango is a wonderful, no Excellent Top Teir Mango but it is very slow growing and may not be very productive. There are reports of it being both a good and bad producer. I know some of you are sick and tired of hearing it but what if Double Stone Grafting could give you a highly productive and more vigorous growing tree that is possibly more disease resistant, use specific rootstock, and grows more compact due to grafting effects( reported from Bernie Dizon in Phillipines).

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0

Due to the ultra low nature of Double Stone Grafts, you can theoretically get branching just 6-8 inches from the ground. If you are growing in a large pot, this will give you a compact bushy plant that is elevated off the floor by about 2+ feet allowing for good air circulation in order to avoid disease and to keep the fruit off the ground. A bushy tree will have more growth points which increases the odds of more flowers and fruit. Heavy fruiting will use up much of the trees resources further reducing the growth of the tree.

I will soon be performing several DSGs on Ice Cream and maybe Julie and I will keep everyone updated. I hear the argument against growing great tasting Mango varieties such as Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart because they are too vigorous but I hope you will taste one of these mangos before deciding it may be too much work to prune and keep small while being productive. For me personally, taste is number one.

Simon



Thanks simon!

Yeah, I have read your post and am very excited to see what you find with this experiment. If DSG really does increase the health and disease resistance of the tree but provides essentially a dwarfing aspect then that would be the best of all worlds. If somehow (wildest mango dreams) we could get a productive Lemon Zest (for example) that doesn't have to be 15-20 ft tall, that would be really exceptional!

I am following that thread with great interest!
- Mark

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #144 on: September 09, 2015, 11:15:32 PM »
Starch,  thank you so much for this thread. It has been very educational for me to see what the folks on here have to say on the subject.  It has definitely made me think of what type of mango I may try to plant in the ground (only got space for 1 variety so gotta make it count). 

Thanks palologrower, absolutely! Glad you find it useful!

Has there been any thought to ranking the list?  It would be subjective and difficult to evaluate since everyone's views are different let alone some may not have experience with a number of the varieties on the list.  Maybe do a top 3-5 from the list?  That would seem interesting. Just a thought.

I think that would be interesting, but very subjective. The only cultivar that seems to have (near) universal appeal is Pickering, but there are still some dissenting views. Most every other cultivar has a lot of conflicting views in flavor, growth rate (which I am sure is location, climate, soil and fertilization dependent), etc. It would be hard to find a clear top 3-5.

What I might do instead is make a table of compact mangos listed by season and flavor profile, that way if someone wants to plant a couple of small trees, they would likely want their mangos to extend the season and not overlap. I think that might be a useful addition to this project. What do you think?
- Mark

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #145 on: September 10, 2015, 08:27:27 AM »
A very seasoned tropical fruit grower in Texas has pointed out a cultural factor I really need to consider and that is the length of our growing season here in central Texas.  This would also apply to a few posting here and growing in greenhouses in "cold" climes, short growing climes if you will, like zone 7-8.  So the question for growers in central & S. Florida would be - do your mango trees ever go dormant and if they do, when?  Are they still growing Dec.-Feb.?  Our growing season is about to wind down. I just topped my Mallika and it remains to be seen if it pushes new foliage, or it will wait until about March of next year to push.

Where I'm going with this is, if it takes me 10 years to get a 12' tree with a "regular" tree such as Kent or Sweet Tart, then why should I focus on a natural compact tree?

No, bigger is not better,
Mark

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2015, 08:33:59 AM »
A table summarizing season and flavor profile would be a great idea!

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #147 on: September 10, 2015, 09:43:00 AM »
A very seasoned tropical fruit grower in Texas has pointed out a cultural factor I really need to consider and that is the length of our growing season here in central Texas.  This would also apply to a few posting here and growing in greenhouses in "cold" climes, short growing climes if you will, like zone 7-8.  So the question for growers in central & S. Florida would be - do your mango trees ever go dormant and if they do, when?  Are they still growing Dec.-Feb.?  Our growing season is about to wind down. I just topped my Mallika and it remains to be seen if it pushes new foliage, or it will wait until about March of next year to push.

Where I'm going with this is, if it takes me 10 years to get a 12' tree with a "regular" tree such as Kent or Sweet Tart, then why should I focus on a natural compact tree?

No, bigger is not better,
Mark

Mark, that is a really good point. Miami has a latitude of 26 deg, Fredicksburg has a latitude of 30 deg, Phoenix and San Diego have latitudes of 33 deg. All these will affect daylight hours, and the length of the season (i.e. the closer to the tropics [23.5 deg] you get the more 'tropical' you day length gets - much more constant). Plants are very sensitive to both diurnal and seasonal light and temperature variations.

That would be an interesting experiment to see how compact even moderately vigorous varieties get the more north you go.

I recall someone pointing out (I don't remember which topic) that Keitt in San Diego is a moderate size tree, but in South Florida Keitts are absolute monsters. I think the phrase that was used was 'you can almost hear them growing overnight'. This probably has a lot to do with the humidity difference, but I think the latitude also plays a non-trivial role.

Good observation!
- Mark

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #148 on: September 10, 2015, 09:43:51 AM »
A table summarizing season and flavor profile would be a great idea!

Then I will definitely start working on it!
- Mark

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #149 on: September 10, 2015, 09:45:05 AM »
A table summarizing season and flavor profile would be a great idea!

I would not make flavor profile part of it.  Tastes are very subjective and are also subject to proper harvesting, ripening and care which many do not do.
- Rob

 

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