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Author Topic: Compact Mango Suggestions  (Read 61756 times)

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #150 on: September 10, 2015, 09:49:45 AM »
A table summarizing season and flavor profile would be a great idea!

I would not make flavor profile part of it.  Tastes are very subjective and are also subject to proper harvesting, ripening and care which many do not do.

I am not thinking like: excellent taste.
But more like "Julie has a Caribbean mango flavor profile with resinous/piney flavors present". Or something like that. So for example if someone really wants a Julie based on the tree size, but has never tried the fruit but they really don't like that flavor profile, then they won't go to all that effort to grow something they won't ultimately like.
- Mark

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #151 on: September 10, 2015, 10:23:57 AM »
bsbullie,
The 'Venus' I was describing were about a dozen grafted trees in a field of mangos.  The original tree, in the same field,  looks more normal and without breakage.
Har

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #152 on: September 10, 2015, 10:32:47 AM »
Another naturally compact tree, per the appearance of two trees at Zill's,  is the 'Rapoza', originally from Hawai'i.

It can be recommended to anyone wanting a compact tree with disease-resistant fruits and very good productivity, with fruit size and color and flavor similar to 'Kent.'

A few dozen trees will be available next year.  More can be grafted this year if there seems to be market interest.
Har

Jani

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #153 on: September 10, 2015, 10:35:53 AM »
A table summarizing season and flavor profile would be a great idea!

I would not make flavor profile part of it.  Tastes are very subjective and are also subject to proper harvesting, ripening and care which many do not do.

I am not thinking like: excellent taste.
But more like "Julie has a Caribbean mango flavor profile with resinous/piney flavors present". Or something like that. So for example if someone really wants a Julie based on the tree size, but has never tried the fruit but they really don't like that flavor profile, then they won't go to all that effort to grow something they won't ultimately like.

I still don't think you'll every really achieve that goal with any level of "accuracy". Also Cultural generalizations themselves aren't particularly accurate in assigning taste descriptions, such as "Caribbean mango profile"...it's a  term that doesn't account for any number of cultural complexities and individual preferences within that grouping.

Something as subjective as taste, and moreover when it's further dependent on so many vairables as Rob said (climate, weather, location, growing practices, tree age, ph, altitude etc etc etc.)..it extremely hard to capture to apply broadly as advice,

especially if...

...one of the stated goals (as alluded to above) is to guide people's decisions on something they ultimately won't like based on taste, I think it may close minds.

The more consistent and tangible physical attributes of the variety (growth habit, bearing patterns, fiber content, disease/pest resistence etc etc) I think are more valuable in guiding sound purchasing decisions..

Re taste as a principal decision driver, I think it's always best to taste for youself (and have a good sample size if possible) to know what you like regardless of others' positive or negative opinions to a particular variety. Of course it's not always possible for people to easily obtain the varieties they're considering to taste test..I get that

Regardless, I gotta concur with Rob and caution against making the taste profile (a big) part of it...


my 2 cents....
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 10:39:56 AM by Jani »
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Jani

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #154 on: September 10, 2015, 10:46:53 AM »
Also remember there are very few sources on these matters on the net, and even fewer current sources...so people with general and beginning interest in mango (or other fruit) will stumble across the few sources and many will take what's written as gospel ..it's a problem with the variety viewers and other similar sources...

So a compilation like this, probably will be seen around the world by new entrants search for information and may limit their objectivity and open mindedness towards a particular fruit, based on subjective opinions on taste.

When I was a newly searching for information and expanding my knowledge on mangos beyond what I grew up with, it's the same regurgitated sources (before I discovered these forums) that I took as gospel and specifically the flavor profile descriptions were a huge part of what ultimately drove my decisions to purchase certain varieties,  to significant disapointment with some...and I know I'm not the only one who has been 'misled' by the generalizations on taste....
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 10:50:05 AM by Jani »
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starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #155 on: September 10, 2015, 11:28:28 AM »
Another naturally compact tree, per the appearance of two trees at Zill's,  is the 'Rapoza', originally from Hawai'i.

It can be recommended to anyone wanting a compact tree with disease-resistant fruits and very good productivity, with fruit size and color and flavor similar to 'Kent.'

A few dozen trees will be available next year.  More can be grafted this year if there seems to be market interest.

Thanks, added to the list!
- Mark

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #156 on: September 10, 2015, 11:41:58 AM »
Jani,

I think you are making some very good points. I agree that there is no way that flavor cannot be subjective, so there is already an (admitted) problem with trying to generate this list.

But let me take the other side of the argument

Some guide to the flavor profile of the mango that you are considering purchasing is far better than no guide at all. The whole point of this post is to gather and centralize information based on forum members observations and experiences with growing these cultivars. And after all, why are we growing mangos? Because we want to eat them, because we enjoy the taste.

The subjective pleasure from eating the mango and preference of one flavor over another is completely individual. But having some input on those flavor experience from others that have grown and eaten the fruit I think could be very helpful.

Regarding open-mindedness vs. close-mindedness

I will give myself as an example. I have never had a Carrie mango before and have never had a mango that could be classified as piney/resinous before. But a couple of days ago I bought a Carrie mango at a nursery. After I grow it, could I hate it? Yes, possibly. Could I love it? Yes, possibly. But I am willing to give it a shot because I am open-minded and want to try new things, even if some people might really dislike it.

Some people on the other hand are close-minded and don't want to try something 'different' (however that may be defined). And so I don't think a table of flavor experiences will change that person's opinion.

So I think the potential upside benefit (more information based on forum members experiences) far outweighs the downside (closing the mind of someone who doesn't want a new experience to begin with) in generating a table of flavor profiles for mangoes.

But what I will do is make a sample table below and let the group weigh in on whether it seems worthwhile.
- Mark

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #157 on: September 10, 2015, 11:43:25 AM »
Here is a sample table that I have generated for this project. Please let me know your input and if you feel it is useful and worth continuing, or if you feel this will lead people astray and close minds ... see post http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17443.msg221500#msg221500
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 05:57:02 PM by starch »
- Mark

StPeteMango

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #158 on: September 10, 2015, 12:05:34 PM »
Where you sit is what you see.

Mallika should not be part of this project.  It is in no way a compact tree.


Raghu Rajput over at https://www.facebook.com/groups/TXRFG/ may differ with you based on personal experience.  For some it is dwarf...... very dwarf.  On September 4 we had this discussion at a Facebook Texas Tropical Fruit Grower's group and I contested  Raghu's statement that his 6 year old Mallika was only 3' tall.  Apparently it bears 5 or so fruits in the 1 lb. + range every year.  I don't know what he's doing to maintain it at that height....probably would be a heavy yielder at 8'.  Here's the proof:

Mallika is on the far right, Alphonso far left, peach in the center.




Closeup of his Mallika



He lives in the Houston area which gets plenty of rain and heat.

Just a note to keep the jeers about Texas growers at bay.  This Facebook group (which is in no way all inclusive) is well over a thousand strong growing every kind of tropical fruit California and Florida has and perhaps more.  Texas is a big state and the coast from Beaumont down to Brownsville offers thousands of opportunities to grow tropical and sub tropical fruits.  Then there are the greenhouse growers and very passionate ones like the admin who is north of Austin growing and grafting hundreds of very exotic fruits.  The fruit tastings and scion exchanges held often in Houston and Austin are very popular.  There is a large Mango Festival near Brownsville every year.  Lot's of stuff going on in Texas.

Mark


Amazing. That 6-year-old Mallika is smaller than my 3-year-old Pickering. Too little sun?  Something to do with the soil? My Mallika, also 3 years old, is about 6 feet tall with tip pruning. Plan/hope to keep it at 10 feet max.

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #159 on: September 10, 2015, 12:26:38 PM »
Cultivar Information for the master list of compact mango trees

Cultivar Name: Rapoza

Tree Size, Growth Rate, Vigorousness

-- Another naturally compact tree, per the appearance of two trees at Zill's,  is the 'Rapoza', originally from Hawai'i.(REF)

-- I planted one from a 3 gal a year and a half ago.  It has tripled in size, it is over 8ft tall. (REF)

--  It is a very vigorous grower for me.(REF)

Productivity and Precociousness

-- It can be recommended to anyone wanting a compact tree with disease-resistant fruits and very good productivity(REF)

-- It flowered early and set lots of fruit and currently has new flowers.   During the first flowering, we had a lot of rain so it handles the wet well.  There are 3 large mangos on the tree now, over a pound. (REF)

-- supposedly very resistant to disease...and a great mango...

the disease/humidity tolerance alone makes it a winner in eyes.

maybe a good choice for the FL growers who want to go organic, and spray less?(REF)

-- good production(REF)

Ripening Time (Location dependent)

-- Over here best late season mangos are 1) Rapoza(REF)

Flavor / Color / Tasting Notes

-- fruit size and color and flavor similar to 'Kent.'(REF)

-- If what I hear is correct, the Florida red is the Hawaiian rapoza. That said, when Robert is here unloaded a bunch of Florida reds last late June, my wife thought they were some of the best mangos she's ever tasted. I'd agree that they were a top 5 for me that year. My rapoza is about to fruit this year for the first time. bloomed twice and is a vigorous grower. No disease problems yet.

Wish I could tell you more.(REF)

-- If you compare ratings for Florida Red versus ratings for Rapoza, you will see that Florida Red will get much higher ratings in Florida, even on this forum. Never mind that they are both the same mango. ::) What does this tell you about influence of preconceived ideas in ratings?  ;)
Rapoza does very well here in super rainy east Hawaii. It has great feature of continued flowering until it finally hits a bit of a dry spell, then you get a very good flower set. It has a lot of good qualities going for it: good coloration, good production, good sized, disease resistance, and ofcourse great taste. I'm sure it could be improved upon....but then again what fruit can't? It is a seedling and improved version of Irwin, so if you don't like Irwin you may not like it? I don't know i haven't tried Irwin yet.(REF)

-- Nothing bad about either however not my favorite.   Irwin had more of an almost generic mango taste like that of a really good Haden (not saying it tasted like a Haden but of just a classic mango flavor).  The Rapoza I have had have had a more distinctive flavor like that of a more intense Irwin with a citrusy component.

Again, both were good but not what I would call my favorite. (REF)

-- Rapoza = ultra fibreless!  even the seed has no clinging fibres.(REF)

-- At the Broward RFVC meeting, Eric from Pine Island spoke about rapoza.  He said they have been grown in Homestead for the last 20 years, marketed as Redland Reds.  He rated them a 10 in taste.  I bought a rapoza at the Fairchild mango festival last year.  (REF)
- Mark

WGphil

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #160 on: September 10, 2015, 01:18:29 PM »
Just wanted to point out that Fairchild just came in fifth in a California taste test  which is a lot different climate than Florida.  Count me surprised.

Check the La Habra thread... 

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #161 on: September 10, 2015, 01:35:24 PM »
I just got off the phone with PIN and asked them the dormant question as it applies from Central to south Florida. Reply was that most mango slow down but never really go dormant.

bsbullie

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #162 on: September 10, 2015, 01:38:16 PM »
bsbullie,
The 'Venus' I was describing were about a dozen grafted trees in a field of mangos.  The original tree, in the same field,  looks more normal and without breakage.

Was that a tree top worked to Venus from one of the "rejects"?
- Rob

bsbullie

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #163 on: September 10, 2015, 01:42:35 PM »
A table summarizing season and flavor profile would be a great idea!

I would not make flavor profile part of it.  Tastes are very subjective and are also subject to proper harvesting, ripening and care which many do not do.

I am not thinking like: excellent taste.
But more like "Julie has a Caribbean mango flavor profile with resinous/piney flavors present". Or something like that. So for example if someone really wants a Julie based on the tree size, but has never tried the fruit but they really don't like that flavor profile, then they won't go to all that effort to grow something they won't ultimately like.

That is exactly what I was talking about that will cause issues.  I have heard Julies described in many ways by different people.  Not everybody tastes nuances the same.  I have heard people describe Julie as being coconutty with no reference to the Caribbean resin/spice.  Also, as I stated, harvesting and eating varieties at different stages will give different flavor profiles.

There are a few on this forum whose descriptions can only be described as "their own" which is why trying to give a flavor profile can be problematic and having people dispute or try and change the majority opinion.
- Rob

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #164 on: September 10, 2015, 05:56:12 PM »
This is NOT the flavor profile table, just a sample. Please see the end of this post

----------------------------------------------

See http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=17443.msg221607#msg221607

-------------------------------------------

The above table is just a sample of the flavor profile notes for the cultivars. There is a large disclaimer at the top. And the flavor notes are taken directly from forum members observations with a reference so that you can easily click on the post and explore that comment more fully.

So, with the above caveats, the question for the group is this: Is this table useful despite the caveats?
[  ] YES
[  ] NO

Please answer below.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 06:32:25 PM by starch »
- Mark

palologrower

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #165 on: September 10, 2015, 06:22:38 PM »
Starch,  thank you so much for this thread. It has been very educational for me to see what the folks on here have to say on the subject.  It has definitely made me think of what type of mango I may try to plant in the ground (only got space for 1 variety so gotta make it count). 

Thanks palologrower, absolutely! Glad you find it useful!

Has there been any thought to ranking the list?  It would be subjective and difficult to evaluate since everyone's views are different let alone some may not have experience with a number of the varieties on the list.  Maybe do a top 3-5 from the list?  That would seem interesting. Just a thought.

I think that would be interesting, but very subjective. The only cultivar that seems to have (near) universal appeal is Pickering, but there are still some dissenting views. Most every other cultivar has a lot of conflicting views in flavor, growth rate (which I am sure is location, climate, soil and fertilization dependent), etc. It would be hard to find a clear top 3-5.

What I might do instead is make a table of compact mangos listed by season and flavor profile, that way if someone wants to plant a couple of small trees, they would likely want their mangos to extend the season and not overlap. I think that might be a useful addition to this project. What do you think?

can total seeing this being made into a large sized poster or something.  I hope that if there are any businesses watching, they recognize who you are and give you a discount on grafted mangoes for your hard work! mahalo nui loa!

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #166 on: September 10, 2015, 07:19:17 PM »
I'm a yes on the sample table. I like that you didn't try to summarize flavor, but just provided a handy index to all the comments available from first hand tasters who have shared opinions. I think that in the variety column it would be great if you could add a ref to the entry you've already created with the full summary for the variety that way it would be really easy to surf to more detail from the table. Nice work!

phantomcrab

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #167 on: September 10, 2015, 07:58:34 PM »
I am also a yes on the sample table. It will never be perfect but it's much better than what currently exists on the web. At least more than one person's opinion is involved.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 08:19:42 PM by phantomcrab »
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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2015, 09:08:57 PM »
This is great work by starch!

Mark in Texas

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #169 on: September 11, 2015, 11:25:33 AM »
Ice Cream responds nicely to tipping but its a poor producer in my yard. 1st year in its 7 gal pot- 3 lemony goodness mangoes. 1st year in ground- 2 mangoes. 2nd and 3rd year in ground- nada :D. Not dwarf like Julie but gets bush and erect. It's 7 ft tall already.

This is what's confusing to me as I've read at several places that Ice Cream can easily kept at 6' and produces large size fruit 1.5 - 2.5 lbs.  Perhaps under Florida hot and wet norms it will become large quick, but here in Texas or elsewhere with a shorter growing season it will be different.

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #170 on: September 11, 2015, 11:53:50 AM »
I've never seen ice cream produce fruit over a pound in weight. It's a small fruit and a lousy producing tree highly prone to disease. Very nice tasting fruit when you get it.

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #171 on: September 11, 2015, 01:40:16 PM »
Yea. I was about to comment as well that from my tree and Ice Cream mangoes bought from Truly Tropical, the most they ever weighed were about 450g or 0.9 lbs. I have a picture on another computer I'll post.
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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #172 on: September 11, 2015, 01:51:03 PM »
Here are my compact Edward & Duncan. Edward has been on the ground 5 years and it's only 6'. I allowed it to hold fruits on its first year pug it the second year to 1.5' it only has 2 flush per year and hold 7-8 mangos per year some huge 2lb monsters. Duncan is still holding 2 fruits it gave me over 50 mangos this year


starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #173 on: September 11, 2015, 06:26:38 PM »
I'm a yes on the sample table. I like that you didn't try to summarize flavor, but just provided a handy index to all the comments available from first hand tasters who have shared opinions. I think that in the variety column it would be great if you could add a ref to the entry you've already created with the full summary for the variety that way it would be really easy to surf to more detail from the table. Nice work!

That is a good idea, will do. Thanks!
- Mark

starch

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Re: Compact Mango Suggestions
« Reply #174 on: September 11, 2015, 06:28:30 PM »
I am also a yes on the sample table. It will never be perfect but it's much better than what currently exists on the web. At least more than one person's opinion is involved.

Thanks phantomcrab. Exactly, multiple opinions involved from the people that actually grow it which shows the range of perceived flavors a mango can have instead of one sentence on a nursery website.
- Mark

 

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