Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon  (Read 3845 times)

countryboy1981

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • 8B Alabama
    • View Profile
Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« on: October 25, 2015, 09:26:54 PM »
Can anybody comment on the taste of the fruit of these 2 varities?  Are they worth growing?

Citradia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 658
    • USA/NC/Old Fort/6B
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 10:14:39 PM »
I've had Ichang lemon. It tastes like lemon and is large and just one fruit before cut, put off a wonderful lemony fragrance that filled the entire kitchen. It was full of lemon juice and seeds. I planted seeds from one fruit and got twenty trees. Makes beautiful leaves and survived zero degrees here last year with plastic hoop house/ high tunnel with 35 gallon garbage can full of water for passive heat source.


countryboy1981

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • 8B Alabama
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 10:20:31 PM »
That is on my list to get then!

countryboy1981

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • 8B Alabama
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 10:38:59 AM »
Does anyone have an opinion on the tiwanica?

Citradia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 658
    • USA/NC/Old Fort/6B
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 06:56:23 PM »
I think that's similar or related to Nansho Dai dai sour orange. I have one of those too that survived right next to my Ichang with passive protection. Never tasted it though. My trees too young. I had wild sour orange in FL when I was a kid; we made juice out of it and drank it. Huge thorns.


countryboy1981

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
    • 8B Alabama
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 10:54:51 PM »
I have a few small trees from seeds that I got from the wild orange trees in canaveral national seashore years ago prior to the breakout of citrus greening.  Mine aren't anywhere near producing yet but the fruit makes really good juice.

manfromyard

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • USA, Ga, 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 02:00:47 PM »
I've always wanted an Ichang for the fragrance, but I can't find anyone with a grafted form Those things take 8-10 years from seed, and I just can't commit to that wait.

eyeckr

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
    • Virginia Beach, VA
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2016, 04:29:11 PM »
I have had both. Ichang lemon is as good as everyone has already mentioned. It really does make a good but seedy lemon substitute and does survive some harsh winters. Tiawanica makes a large, pretty and thorny tree and nice sized ornamental fruit. I never used the fruit off of my trees because I thought they had a skunky off tasting flavor. Mine died off a couple winters ago and I have no plans on regrafting one out in the yard. The Ichang lemon trees are doing well and I can't wait for them to fruit again.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2019, 05:49:37 PM »
I just talked to Nat Bradford. He used to live in Seneca, South Carolina, which he insisted is zone 7a. (I'm looking at a USDA hardiness map and Seneca appears to be listed as being on the border of zone 8a/7b though, but I pressed him on this point at he was adamant that the location was definitely not in zone 8 )
He said he grew a Tiwanica lemon and an C. ichangensis outside there unprotected, and they have survived for 7 years. At one point he says the temperature got down to 4 F. He says his Tiwanica lemon survived all this time. I specifically asked if it had survived the freeze in 2017-2018, and he said yes, he had gone back to the property and saw the tree was still there, even though he doesn't live there anymore. The Tiwanica was grown from a seedling and is not grafted. He initially grew them in one gallon pots and left them outside, they survived. Then he eventually planted them out into the ground.
The C. ichangensis has lost leaves and the leaves have turned yellow-brown every Winter, but he says the Tiwanica did not lose leaves.

I was very surprised to hear this.

His Tiwanica has fruited, but he says his C. ichangensis never set flowers.

I also asked how his hardy citrus hybridization attempts have been going, and he said he's been busy and has a few seedlings from his Tiwanica, but nothing else besides that.

This is the same Nat Bradford whose name is connected to the Bradford watermelon (once a famous heirloom variety in the South), and he did an internship at Longwood Gardens in Pennsylvania.

Sylvain

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2019, 08:32:11 AM »
Sorry but it is not Tiwanica but taiwanica, ever heard of Taiwan?  :)
Ichang lemon is not at all Citrus ichangensis !!!

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2019, 04:31:26 PM »
Sorry but it is not Tiwanica but taiwanica, ever heard of Taiwan?  :)
Spelling mistake on my part.

Ichang lemon is not at all Citrus ichangensis !!!
I am aware of that, but since C. ichangensis was part of the story I thought I would share that. Especially to show how Taiwanica did side by side compared to ichangensis.

Kelley_GA8a

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
    • Stockbridge, GA USA 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2019, 10:50:04 AM »
Stan McKenzie may have the ichang and taichang lemons

Radoslav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 745
    • Slovakia
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2019, 01:22:36 PM »
Just a question.
Is Taichang lemon   ichangensis x taiwanica, or taiwanica x ichangensis ?

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2019, 01:39:35 PM »
Just a question.
Is Taichang lemon   ichangensis x taiwanica, or taiwanica x ichangensis ?
Neither. It's Taiwanica x Ichang lemon.

(Not exactly sure which is the female parent though, but I would assume Taiwanica because its seeds are known to turn out to be zygotic)

"Ichang lemon" refers to a pomelo x ichangensis hybrid that was cultivated in China in older times.

The original Chinese name for it translates to "fragrant ball".
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 01:47:46 PM by SoCal2warm »

Radoslav

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 745
    • Slovakia
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2019, 02:43:07 AM »
Just a question.
Is Taichang lemon   ichangensis x taiwanica, or taiwanica x ichangensis ?

Neither. It's Taiwanica x Ichang lemon.

(Not exactly sure which is the female parent though, but I would assume Taiwanica because its seeds are known to turn out to be zygotic)

"Ichang lemon" refers to a pomelo x ichangensis hybrid that was cultivated in China in older times.

The original Chinese name for it translates to "fragrant ball".



I guess, you took your info from http://mckenzie-farms.com/photo.htm  but  through the years I saw taichang described as ichangensis x taiwanica, taiwanica x ichangensis, Ichang lemon x taiwanica, I would like to know, who is author and which parents are the correct one.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2019, 11:25:43 AM »
I guess, you took your info from http://mckenzie-farms.com/photo.htm
That is correct.

Hardy Citrus for the Southeast, by Tom McClendon, also lists "Tai-chang" as Citrus taiwanica x Ichang Lemon on page 30.
(It's under the heading "A Sour Orange Hybrid", which I believe is appropriate)

McKenzie Farms is listed as the first Hardy Citrus source in that publication, so I don't know if Tom McClendon got that information from Stan McKenzie, or Stan McKenzie got that information from Tom McClendon.

Anyway, I would guess that information is probably correct since I seem to remember (I might be wrong) people writing that the Taichang lemon was not really any cold hardier than Taiwanica lemon, and if Taichang lemon had a direct C. ichangensis parent, I would expect it to display much more cold hardiness. On the other hand, the small fruit size and relatively poor fruit quality could definitely be seen to suggest the opposite.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 11:50:14 AM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1135
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Ichang and Tiwanica lemon
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2019, 12:25:19 PM »
Does anyone have an opinion on the tiwanica?
I've never personally tasted it before, but from what I've read it's not really eating quality. The Japanese used it to flavor vinegar, and as an ornamental, including using the branches full of fruit as ornamental decoration. It's a very vigorous grower and, as the Japanese name daidai implies, the fruit hang on the tree for a very long time.
I would imagine the fruit quality is much like a somewhat lower quality sour orange. If that's the case it may be useful for certain culinary uses, like perhaps making a marmalade, but is not something you're going to want to eat fresh out of hand.


I think one of our other forum members can comment on how they taste though:
The Daidai citrus I've had at past citrus shows were nasty bitter orange. I wouldn't eat it but that's just me.
(Taiwanica sometimes goes under the name Nanshodaidai or daidai)

Laaz, Charleston, SC 9a , said they tasted like "nasty bitter orange", "I wouldn't eat it but that's just me"

I don't know if this helps anyone at all but I've tasted Chinotto sour orange and can relate to his sentiments. The sour orange is theoretically edible but just very sour, not really the best flavor, despite the nice intense aroma, and perhaps a little bitter, though nothing like the type of awful bitterness from poncirus and its hybrids.
I could snack on one of the fruits while foraging if there was nothing else better to pick, though it's pretty seedy, would be more for the adventurous eater.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 12:48:05 PM by SoCal2warm »

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers