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Author Topic: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk  (Read 6400 times)

simon_grow

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Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« on: November 03, 2015, 08:00:55 PM »
I just visited Leo and he's still got lots of Mangos hanging on his trees. Some of his clusters of fruit were so heavy that I'm surprised it didn't snap the branch. Some of his clusters must have had about 10 mangos and they weren't small mangos. There were lots of mangos hiding in the canopy but are clearly visible if you up from under the tree.

Simon







« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:46:52 PM by simon_grow »

simon_grow

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2015, 08:06:03 PM »
More pics








And here is a Double Stone Grafted Lemon Zest I planted for Leo several weeks ago. I spread several of my DSGed trees around San Diego to see how they perform in other people's yards.



Johnny Eat Fruit

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2015, 08:18:14 PM »
Very nice Simon as those are beautiful mangoes. It will be interesting to see how your double grafted LZ grows in 2016. I lave a LZ I purchased in late July of this year from Florida and it has already put on two growth flushes. Hopefully the warm El Nino 2016 weather pattern will be beneficial to our mangoes hear in the south land. 

Johnny

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2015, 08:26:15 PM »
Very nice Simon as those are beautiful mangoes. It will be interesting to see how your double grafted LZ grows in 2016. I lave a LZ I purchased in late July of this year from Florida and it has already put on two growth flushes. Hopefully the warm El Nino 2016 weather pattern will be beneficial to our mangoes hear in the south land. 

Johnny
My LZ from Florida which I've had about 4 years just lost all of it's leaves and is dying back, Simon has the right idea, double grafting and using manila rootstock.

Johnny Eat Fruit

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2015, 08:33:41 PM »
Any Idea Markee why your LZ is Dying. Do you have any Photos. Have you narrowed it down to the root stock and if so why. If you have other mangoes are they effected too.

Thanks

starch

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2015, 08:41:11 PM »
Simon,

That is great! All the posts I have read from you, JF and others regarding Leo Manuel's yard and fruiting enthusiasm is just awesome!

I sure you have mentioned this before, but what is your preferred seed for DSG? (Manilas?, Keitts?, or does it not matter, or are you still tinkering to find an optimal combination?)
- Mark

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2015, 09:21:14 PM »
Leo is an incredible man. He has mangos ripening from fall to late spring and look at the quality and the amount of the fruits......amazing, a mango legend in SoCal!!!

simon_grow

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2015, 09:48:00 PM »
Thanks everyone!

I have a few experiments going on with Lemon Zest and Here is a quick breakdown. I have two LZ Mango trees ordered from Florida and presumably on turpentine rootstock. They were both approximately the same size when I ordered the trees but one tree was planted into the ground sooner than the other. The LZ that was planted into the ground first busted out with 4-5 flushes if I remember correctly. Because LZ is known to be a vigorous upright variety, I decided to let it grow uncontrolled with no pruning to simulate a word case scenario of uncontrolled growth.

This tree flowered and fruited the first year but the growth was so vigorous and due to the Turpentine rootstock( this is assumption but there are multiple members that can vouch) the vegetative growths were long and weak with an extremely droopy habit typical of what we see from Florida grafted Mango trees but exacerbated by the extreme vigor of the LZ. The majority of growth showed signs of nutrient deficiencies.

The brother tree was slightly delayed in growth because it was in a pot for several more months before planting into the ground and it did not flower the first year. For this tree, I implemented a tip pruning regimen following Dr Campbell's recommendation. Scaffold branching for both these trees start approximately 3-4 feet from the ground. This second tree has flushed about three times and so far the growth is not droopy although some of the growth showed signs of nutrient deficiencies.

My third LZ is actually three different branches of LZ grafted onto a Lavern Manilla rootstock. These grafts took with vigor and flushed three times with tip pruning. These grafts show no signs of droop growth and also do not show any signs of nutrient deficiencies.

My fourth LZ is my Double Stone Grafted plant from this thread: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0  It has flushed three times in three months since grafting onto double Kent seedling rootstock. The trunk has more than doubled in size and it is naturally forming ultra low scaffold branches which may be beneficial for this extremely vigorous upright grower. I would like to keep this tree low, bushy and very fruitful so I feel that very low scaffold branches are required as the foundation.

I also have DSGed LZ on Indian Mango rootstock, Ataulfo, Glenn, Haden, TA, and mixed ( mono and poly) rootstocks. I have also spread some of these DSGed LZ trees to different parts of San Diego in order to get more data points for future analysis.

So far, the best rootstock to use for DSGing is Kent seedling rootstock but any vigorous mono seedling seems to work really well. For long term health of the tree, one Mono and one Poly seedling may give better disease resistance.

Simon
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 09:52:11 PM by simon_grow »

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2015, 11:29:59 PM »
Thanks for sharing your experiences on your LZs. I too am noticing the same thing with my LZ here in AZ. The tree is from Florida. Vigorous growth but most of the new leaves show a lot of signs of deficiency. I foliar feed and regular fertilizer on my fruit trees and the mangoes I have are the ones only showing signs of deficiency.

I'll have to try and graft some onto manila rootstock to see if there's any difference here.

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2015, 03:30:18 AM »
Thanks everyone!

I have a few experiments going on with Lemon Zest and Here is a quick breakdown. I have two LZ Mango trees ordered from Florida and presumably on turpentine rootstock. They were both approximately the same size when I ordered the trees but one tree was planted into the ground sooner than the other. The LZ that was planted into the ground first busted out with 4-5 flushes if I remember correctly. Because LZ is known to be a vigorous upright variety, I decided to let it grow uncontrolled with no pruning to simulate a word case scenario of uncontrolled growth.

This tree flowered and fruited the first year but the growth was so vigorous and due to the Turpentine rootstock( this is assumption but there are multiple members that can vouch) the vegetative growths were long and weak with an extremely droopy habit typical of what we see from Florida grafted Mango trees but exacerbated by the extreme vigor of the LZ. The majority of growth showed signs of nutrient deficiencies.

The brother tree was slightly delayed in growth because it was in a pot for several more months before planting into the ground and it did not flower the first year. For this tree, I implemented a tip pruning regimen following Dr Campbell's recommendation. Scaffold branching for both these trees start approximately 3-4 feet from the ground. This second tree has flushed about three times and so far the growth is not droopy although some of the growth showed signs of nutrient deficiencies.

My third LZ is actually three different branches of LZ grafted onto a Lavern Manilla rootstock. These grafts took with vigor and flushed three times with tip pruning. These grafts show no signs of droop growth and also do not show any signs of nutrient deficiencies.

My fourth LZ is my Double Stone Grafted plant from this thread: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0  It has flushed three times in three months since grafting onto double Kent seedling rootstock. The trunk has more than doubled in size and it is naturally forming ultra low scaffold branches which may be beneficial for this extremely vigorous upright grower. I would like to keep this tree low, bushy and very fruitful so I feel that very low scaffold branches are required as the foundation.

I also have DSGed LZ on Indian Mango rootstock, Ataulfo, Glenn, Haden, TA, and mixed ( mono and poly) rootstocks. I have also spread some of these DSGed LZ trees to different parts of San Diego in order to get more data points for future analysis.

So far, the best rootstock to use for DSGing is Kent seedling rootstock but any vigorous mono seedling seems to work really well. For long term health of the tree, one Mono and one Poly seedling may give better disease resistance.

Simon

Seems counter intuitive to me to want to amp up the vigor on a LZ.  LZ is the most vigorous mango I have.  I love the idea of lateral growth, if that is replicable you may have a winning combination.  If not, you may have created a monster, a delicious monster, that you harvest with a skyscraper.  I don't think there can be too many LZs in the world.  Love the great work and knowledge your giving.

JF

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2015, 10:13:40 AM »
Is this thread dedicated to Leo Manual's yard or just another double stone graft propaganda? 

starch

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 10:24:58 AM »
Is this thread dedicated to Leo Manual's yard or just another double stone graft propaganda?

JF, I was remarking on Leo's yard above (see about 5 posts above this one) and then asked a question about DSG because Simon put a DSG LZ in Leo's yard (see end of first post).

I certainly don't think this is DSG propaganda, it was just a question that was asked and answered. So if anyone is to blame about hijacking the thread, it's me.

Apologies.
- Mark

simon_grow

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2015, 04:02:43 PM »
Thanks everyone!

I have a few experiments going on with Lemon Zest and Here is a quick breakdown. I have two LZ Mango trees ordered from Florida and presumably on turpentine rootstock. They were both approximately the same size when I ordered the trees but one tree was planted into the ground sooner than the other. The LZ that was planted into the ground first busted out with 4-5 flushes if I remember correctly. Because LZ is known to be a vigorous upright variety, I decided to let it grow uncontrolled with no pruning to simulate a word case scenario of uncontrolled growth.

This tree flowered and fruited the first year but the growth was so vigorous and due to the Turpentine rootstock( this is assumption but there are multiple members that can vouch) the vegetative growths were long and weak with an extremely droopy habit typical of what we see from Florida grafted Mango trees but exacerbated by the extreme vigor of the LZ. The majority of growth showed signs of nutrient deficiencies.

The brother tree was slightly delayed in growth because it was in a pot for several more months before planting into the ground and it did not flower the first year. For this tree, I implemented a tip pruning regimen following Dr Campbell's recommendation. Scaffold branching for both these trees start approximately 3-4 feet from the ground. This second tree has flushed about three times and so far the growth is not droopy although some of the growth showed signs of nutrient deficiencies.

My third LZ is actually three different branches of LZ grafted onto a Lavern Manilla rootstock. These grafts took with vigor and flushed three times with tip pruning. These grafts show no signs of droop growth and also do not show any signs of nutrient deficiencies.

My fourth LZ is my Double Stone Grafted plant from this thread: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.0  It has flushed three times in three months since grafting onto double Kent seedling rootstock. The trunk has more than doubled in size and it is naturally forming ultra low scaffold branches which may be beneficial for this extremely vigorous upright grower. I would like to keep this tree low, bushy and very fruitful so I feel that very low scaffold branches are required as the foundation.

I also have DSGed LZ on Indian Mango rootstock, Ataulfo, Glenn, Haden, TA, and mixed ( mono and poly) rootstocks. I have also spread some of these DSGed LZ trees to different parts of San Diego in order to get more data points for future analysis.

So far, the best rootstock to use for DSGing is Kent seedling rootstock but any vigorous mono seedling seems to work really well. For long term health of the tree, one Mono and one Poly seedling may give better disease resistance.

Simon

Seems counter intuitive to me to want to amp up the vigor on a LZ.  LZ is the most vigorous mango I have.  I love the idea of lateral growth, if that is replicable you may have a winning combination.  If not, you may have created a monster, a delicious monster, that you harvest with a skyscraper.  I don't think there can be too many LZs in the world.  Love the great work and knowledge your giving.


Doglips, yes, LZ is already an extremely vigorous grower and I said I want to keep it low and bushy and productive but secretly I want to grow a monstrous tree as this is one of my favorite varieties. I do also have NDM and Julie on DSG to see how they handle multiple seedling rootstocks.

As I was speaking with Leo yesterday, he suggested I type up a story regarding my experiments with Double Stone Grafting to put into the CRFG newsletter and I will probably do so when I get more results from the various DSGed trees out there.

Most of Leo's large and fruitful trees are from various seedling rootstocks and I feel that is a big part of Leo's success in growing his beautiful and productive trees. Since the DSGed trees are still new to SoCal, I am still recommending to people here in SoCal to plant trees grafted onto Manilla rootstock as I and other have had good success with this rootstock.

I edited the title to this post so please feel free to talk about Leo's mangos or Mango tree talk in general. If you have specific questions or need specific answers to the Double Stone Grafting technique, please post under that thread as others may be interested in your questions and answers.

Simon

edzone9

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2015, 04:12:08 PM »
Amazing!
Pushing The Zone Limits ......

sapote

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2015, 04:59:59 PM »
Simon,

Leo's mango photos show something like NDM and Maha or whatever Thai varieties with a month of ripening stilll. Did he delay the season by aborting the easy flower/fruits and kept the late flowers in July/August?

Did you say Leo's trees were seedlings and not grafted?

Sapote


JF

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 05:08:21 PM »
Is this thread dedicated to Leo Manual's yard or just another double stone graft propaganda?


JF, I was remarking on Leo's yard above (see about 5 posts above this one) and then asked a question about DSG because Simon put a DSG LZ in Leo's yard (see end of first post).

I certainly don't think this is DSG propaganda, it was just a question that was asked and answered. So if anyone is to blame about hijacking the thread, it's me.

Apologies.


No need to apologize starch. Here are more pix from Leo's amazing mangos a few weeks ago










starch

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 06:22:28 PM »
Is this thread dedicated to Leo Manual's yard or just another double stone graft propaganda?


JF, I was remarking on Leo's yard above (see about 5 posts above this one) and then asked a question about DSG because Simon put a DSG LZ in Leo's yard (see end of first post).

I certainly don't think this is DSG propaganda, it was just a question that was asked and answered. So if anyone is to blame about hijacking the thread, it's me.

Apologies.


No need to apologize starch. Here are more pix from Leo's amazing mangos a few weeks ago











Those are beauties!!
- Mark

starch

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 06:26:34 PM »
Most of Leo's large and fruitful trees are from various seedling rootstocks and I feel that is a big part of Leo's success in growing his beautiful and productive trees. Since the DSGed trees are still new to SoCal, I am still recommending to people here in SoCal to plant trees grafted onto Manilla rootstock as I and other have had good success with this rootstock.

I planted a bunch of Keitt seedlings this year, but they don't seem to be very vigorous for me :( But I did pick up a few Manila seedlings from HD and am planning to use them for some multigraft trees next year.

I love these posts about mango experimentation and especially the success stories!
- Mark

simon_grow

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 06:46:07 PM »
Simon,

Leo's mango photos show something like NDM and Maha or whatever Thai varieties with a month of ripening stilll. Did he delay the season by aborting the easy flower/fruits and kept the late flowers in July/August?

Did you say Leo's trees were seedlings and not grafted?

Sapote

Sapote, Leo mentioned that some of his varieties were a bit later this year, we speculated it could be weather related. Leo also showed me one of his trees that fruited very heavily but only on the South side of the tree and asked me what I thought. The only things I could come up with is that the south side of the tree gets more sunlight so and the sunlight may be part of the puzzle with plant hormones that may help trigger flowering.

Generally in short day plants, the formation and developement of flowers is controlled by the number of hours of darkness. The hormone that gives the signal to flower is called florigen. Cytokinins and Auxins also play an important role in the further formation and growth of the flowers.

An alternate explanation I gave Leo is that the South facing part of his tree may have less fungal issues due to the fact that any moisture will evaporate much sooner on the South side of his tree which does not favor fungal spores from germinating.

If anyone has any other ideas why only the South side of One of Leo's Mango trees is holding fruit, I would love to hear your idea and share with Leo.

Simon

sapote

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 06:48:03 PM »

I planted a bunch of Keitt seedlings this year, but they don't seem to be very vigorous for me :( But I did pick up a few Manila seedlings from HD and am planning to use them for some multigraft trees next year.

I love these posts about mango experimentation and especially the success stories!

My Kent seedlings were very weak and slow glowing for the first couple years, and then they just got strong and grew fast. I think Keitt could be the same.

sapote

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 06:57:11 PM »
Leo also showed me one of his trees that fruited very heavily but only on the South side of the tree and asked me what I thought. The only things I could come up with is that the south side of the tree gets more sunlight so and the sunlight may be part of the puzzle with plant hormones that may help trigger flowering.

An alternate explanation I gave Leo is that the South facing part of his tree may have less fungal issues due to the fact that any moisture will evaporate much sooner on the South side of his tree which does not favor fungal spores from germinating.

Simon

Simon,
If the tree has been consistently this way, then both theories might be right, and why don't we ask Leo for this experiment: if the north and other sides have no fruits then test  this by thinning off those side in such a way that the north branches are much taller than the south ones. Less flower fungal and more light for more more more fruits :)

marklee

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 10:40:46 PM »
Simon,

Leo's mango photos show something like NDM and Maha or whatever Thai varieties with a month of ripening stilll. Did he delay the season by aborting the easy flower/fruits and kept the late flowers in July/August?

Did you say Leo's trees were seedlings and not grafted?

Sapote

Sapote, Leo mentioned that some of his varieties were a bit later this year, we speculated it could be weather related. Leo also showed me one of his trees that fruited very heavily but only on the South side of the tree and asked me what I thought. The only things I could come up with is that the south side of the tree gets more sunlight so and the sunlight may be part of the puzzle with plant hormones that may help trigger flowering.

Generally in short day plants, the formation and developement of flowers is controlled by the number of hours of darkness. The hormone that gives the signal to flower is called florigen. Cytokinins and Auxins also play an important role in the further formation and growth of the flowers.

An alternate explanation I gave Leo is that the South facing part of his tree may have less fungal issues due to the fact that any moisture will evaporate much sooner on the South side of his tree which does not favor fungal spores from germinating.

If anyone has any other ideas why only the South side of One of Leo's Mango trees is holding fruit, I would love to hear your idea and share with Leo.

Simon
Simon,

I think it has to do with the sun getting to the fruit and flowers, remember if part of your lychee tree gets only a bit of sun then no fruit will develop. And Leo has plenty of trees and to block out parts of his mango trees. He should "lace" the trees to get more fruit. You know first hand how many lychees he had this year, his tree is unblocked by any thing around it and it is pretty big. He also told me he gets small Jaboticaba hauls because he planted it in the wrong spot.

simon_grow

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2015, 11:18:04 PM »
Mark, I was thinking the same thing in terms of Lychees needing full sun for fruit. Leo's trees are very large and the nearby trees are definitely shading parts of the canopy.

Sapote, I just noticed the other part of your question, Leo planted lots of various Mango seeds in his yard, many years ago. He has since grafted various varieties onto his seedling rootstocks with much success. Grafting scions onto vigorous established Mango trees works really well from what I have found. Most of us are relatively new to growing mango in SoCal and we don't have established trees to work with so I suggest purchasing pre grafted trees on Manilla rootstock from JF or Behlgarden if you don't want to graft your own trees or you can perform your own grafts although the ideal time for grafting Mango in SoCsl has already passed.

Simon

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2015, 11:55:57 PM »
As Simon said, grafting onto mature trees has a much different effect on the growth of the scion as opposed to grafting onto "nuresry rootstock."  Its not necessarily cause the rootstock/mature tree is vigorous but instead is able to provide exponentially more energy to the scions causing the scions to have more vigor and rapid growth.   

Here in Florida,  Pickering grafted onto 75 year old rootstock can give you a 30 - 35 foot Pickering.  Pickering grafted onto nursery rootstock,  a slow growing, compact tree suitable for a large pot or very small yard.
- Rob

marklee

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Re: Mangos from Leo's yard and Mango tree talk
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2015, 09:21:56 PM »
Mark, I was thinking the same thing in terms of Lychees needing full sun for fruit. Leo's trees are very large and the nearby trees are definitely shading parts of the canopy.

Sapote, I just noticed the other part of your question, Leo planted lots of various Mango seeds in his yard, many years ago. He has since grafted various varieties onto his seedling rootstocks with much success. Grafting scions onto vigorous established Mango trees works really well from what I have found. Most of us are relatively new to growing mango in SoCal and we don't have established trees to work with so I suggest purchasing pre grafted trees on Manilla rootstock from JF or Behlgarden if you don't want to graft your own trees or you can perform your own grafts although the ideal time for grafting Mango in SoCsl has already passed.

Simon
Simon,

I have a few multi grafted mangoes that I grafted onto some 4 or 5 year old trees that have been in the ground. They are doing great, and they are on Manila, Corriente and an unknown seedling from Paul Thompsons edgehill property. Forget those TT plants. I have a couple of them in the ground and they hardly grow.

 

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