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Author Topic: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks  (Read 6574 times)

simon_grow

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Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« on: July 27, 2016, 06:54:24 PM »
Many of us here on this forum grow mango and one important consideration when growing this wonderful fruit is the rootstock it is grown on. It is my understanding, perhaps I am mistaken, that most of the grafted Mangos coming out of Florida nurseries are grown on a particular selection of "Turpentine" rootstock that was especially selected for growth in Florida due to good fruiting and adaptability to specific amounts of salt in the soil.

I've been researching Mango rootstocks recently and have several highly unscientific experiments growing in my small yard in an attempt to find highly vigorous Mango rootstocks that will perform well in marginal mango growing areas with relatively cool weather and high pH soils that are heavy in clay and slow to drain water and low in oxygen levels.

I believe that here in Southern California, the major factor contributing to slow growth and thus low yields is the adaptability or lack there of, of specific rootstocks used in the nurseries. Once trees are large enough, production is high but the time it takes to achieve a tree size capable of producing large numbers of fruit takes many years which decreases the yield potential of mango trees grown here. Although no scientific experiments that I know of have been performed to compare the growth rate and overall adaptability of specific rootstocks most commonly available in nurseries here in SoCal, anecdotle evidence suggest that seedling rootstocks and Lavern Manilla rootstocks perform better than Florida Turpentine rootstocks.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.50
Also see reply #169 from this thread http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.150

Here in SoCal, most mangos bloom profusely as cold weather is the single most important factor for bloom induction. In cooler climates such as SoCal, young grafted trees less than 1 year old and under 18 inches tall often produce blooms and attempt to hold fruit. See reply #137, 142. http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=16549.125

Most commercial Mango growing operations around the world use seedlings from polyembryonic mangos due to the uniformity of clonal rootstocks but this type of selection greatly limits the selection of potentially advantageous rootstocks for home gardeners that may not require commercial orchard type trees.

It has been over 200 years since Mangos were introduced into Southern Florida and it has been almost a century since some of the old time favorites such as Kent, Carrie and Edward were planted in the Florida homestead and it appears that "Turpentine" is still the preferred rootstock due to lack of experimentation. http://www.fairchildgarden.org/events-community-outreach/events-details/artmid/486/userid/1/articleid/986/the-history-of-mangos-in-south-florida I suggest that more backyard growers experiment with different types of Mono and Polyembryonic mango seedlings and keep track of the progress of their trees. At a minimum, it will be beneficial to research articles that are available on the Internet to find out if there have been any advances in mango rootstock technology so that those more adventurous growers may experiment and possibly find rootstocks that exhibit beneficial characteristics that are currently not available with the Turpentine rootstock such as high yield and dwarfing. Rootstocks that are more disease resistant or better adapted to sandy or mucky soils may also be discovered when tropical fruit hunters and growers push the envelope and think outside the box.

I will update this this thread with more information and articles that I find that may benefit us in our acquisition of knowledge especially relating to Mango rootstocks and I hope others will do the same.

Here is an article on Mango rootstocks that some may find very interesting. It includes information on several rootstocks that show high yields on small as well as large trees. Looks like there is such a thing as dwarfing rootstock, not really dwarfing but small stature trees that still produce heavily.
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/6/1720.full

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2016, 07:52:48 PM »
It matters what the scion and rootstock combination is. Just because a particular variety shows beneficial attributes on a specific rootstock does not necessarily mean that any variety grafted onto this rootstock will also show the same beneficial attributes. http://www.fruits-journal.org/articles/fruits/pdf/2006/03/i6014.pdf

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2016, 08:21:14 PM »
Effect on growth, yield and fruit quality of mono vs poly rootstocks
http://www.cpac.embrapa.br/download/892/t
Polyembryonic seedlings http://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1991-vol-104/44-47%20(SCHNELL).pdf

Identification of zygotic and nucellar seedlings in polyembryonic mango cultivars with info on Manilla and Ataulfo http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-204X2012001100010

Simon

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2016, 10:18:55 PM »
I don't mean to veer this topic, but I'm curious, how is mango rootstock propagated? Is it just seedling from said variety? That obviously wouldn't give you a clone though. Is it something else like root division or tissue culture? thanks

simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2016, 12:33:26 AM »
The articles I posted show that the majority of rootstocks used for mango orchards are nucellar seedlings from polyembryonic seeds. When selecting for nucellar seedlings, mistakes can be made and can lead to non conforming trees in the plantations.

Mango growing regions are already experimenting with polyembryonic varieties and I advocate that we backyard gardeners experiment with Monoembryonic seedlings due to increased diversity of genotypes and phenotypes.

If we happen upon a superior rootstock, we can propogate it the same way they create clonal rootstock for avocado. We can also take air layers to use as rootstock.

Simon

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2016, 12:51:26 AM »
The articles I posted show that the majority of rootstocks used for mango orchards are nucellar seedlings from polyembryonic seeds. When selecting for nucellar seedlings, mistakes can be made and can lead to non conforming trees in the plantations.

Mango growing regions are already experimenting with polyembryonic varieties and I advocate that we backyard gardeners experiment with Monoembryonic seedlings due to increased diversity of genotypes and phenotypes.

If we happen upon a superior rootstock, we can propogate it the same way they create clonal rootstock for avocado. We can also take air layers to use as rootstock.

Simon

Air layering for mangoes does not result in a healthy sturdy root system.
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simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2016, 02:19:07 AM »
Thanks for the information Rob, that must be why I've only heard of one air layered tree. A friend of mine said it was performing well down here in California.

I read that scions can influence the rootstock and have personally seen excellent results with Kesar as scion. Both my Kesar and Jumbo Kesar grafts have grown with significant vigor and show the least nutrient deficiencies out of all my varieties.

The use of air layered trees may be detrimental to commercial growers wanting to grow the old way of huge trees but the latest technologies suggest that smaller trees give better quality fruit with lower overall costs especially when labor is involved. This may be beneficial to those in tropical Mango growing regions that want to have smaller but productive trees with more variety per square foot.

In this case, what applies to Mango orchards applies to backyard Mango trees, namely that smaller trees will be easier to maintain, especially if one sprays with foliars.  Perhaps using air layered trees combined with root pruning technologies can increase vigor enough to have a more dense root system for a healthy tree yet dwarfing enough to keep the tree small yet productive.

Simon

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2016, 09:44:06 PM »
Effect of mango rootstock on succeptability to specific fruit fly. This paper shows that the rootstock can affect firmness of fruit and a specific terpene which can affect aroma, flavor and in turn affect succeptability to this fruit fly. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Laura_Perez-Flores/publication/221800292_Effect_of_Rootstock_on_Mango_Fruit_Susceptibility_to_Infestation_by_Anastrepha_obliqua/links/548fa9720cf2d1800d86294d.pdf?origin=publication_detail

This article has lots of exciting information, advances in breeding, genomics, rootstock developement and disease management. Briefly mentioned is the evaluation of specific rootstocks used to confer beneficial effects on scions such as environmental adaptability, uniformity, vigor control and yield enhancement. Also briefly mentioned is the use of specific, name actually given, rootstocks that are resistant to mango root rot, this may especially important for those in mucky or slow draining soils.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-29452011000500008
Simon

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2016, 02:23:41 PM »
Thank you for the interesting links.
Har

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2017, 06:59:01 PM »
 I know air layering isn't a preferred method, but I was thinking, what if you air layer right on the graft union? Would that technically result in having two different root stocks?

meristos

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2017, 07:20:06 PM »

raimeiken

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2017, 10:04:43 PM »
would love to get those 13/1 root stocks. They'd be perfect for our soil here!

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2017, 12:15:57 AM »
My cousin has a small ranch, and he has had problems with Avocados,  he says that they all start off fine, but once their roots hit the clay a few feet down, they all die shortly after.

I asked him if there were wild avocados trees growing nearby he said there were many.  I just told him to use seeds from these trees, to use as rood stock.

what I am getting at, is  that sometimes you just need to observe what doing well already in your area and climate,  its not very scientific,  but you might get good results.
William
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simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2017, 10:28:06 AM »
My cousin has a small ranch, and he has had problems with Avocados,  he says that they all start off fine, but once their roots hit the clay a few feet down, they all die shortly after.

I asked him if there were wild avocados trees growing nearby he said there were many.  I just told him to use seeds from these trees, to use as rood stock.

what I am getting at, is  that sometimes you just need to observe what doing well already in your area and climate,  its not very scientific,  but you might get good results.

Tropicdude, you are completely on point with that statement.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 06:01:56 PM »
I wanted to post this picture to show the differences between the Lemon Zest flowers on two different types of rootstocks. This first picture is my flowers on Lemon Zest on Florida Turpentine rootstock. It does have some fruit set but the flowers were heavily infected with Powdery mildew.




This next picture is Lemon Zest grafted onto LaVern Manilla rootstock.


The Lemon Zest on Manilla rootstock also has a bit of Powdery Mildew but significantly less than on Turpentine rootstock. Lemon Zest just seems highly susceptible to Powdery Mildew. A Venus and DOT graft on the same Florida Turpentine rootstock(multigraft tree) as the Lemon Zest has little Powdery Mildew.

Venus bloom right next to LZ blooms


 
Even DOT has less PM than LZ


Simon

palmtreeluke

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2017, 08:12:49 PM »
very interesting reads. lots more work needs to be done on mango rootstocks. finding dwarfing or more productive types is definitely beneficial.

I have be collecting and growing many local fibrous mangos that are old surviving trees, all trees are over 50 years old and have endured cold and hurricanes, and what not. Some are turpentine, some are a mix of off types of turpentine and Caribbean fibrous mangos I suspect.

either way im experimenting and grafting with different types and keeping track of them. already, a difference in vigor is apparent in the rootstocks before grafting.
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Jose Spain

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2017, 03:29:58 PM »
In french, google can tanslate it:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/fr/notre-selection-de-porte-greffes


Viveros Blanco is a Spanish company here in Malaga, great professionals with a long experience in subtropicals. They have the site in English too:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/our-rootstock-selection

And here they describe some problems with rootstock criollo:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/presentation

IMO Gomera 3, 13/1 and Banilejo are interesting options for SoCal, since you share with us same climate and soil conditions. Besides the last two are moderate or little vigorous and in the case of 13/1 is almost a dwarfing rootstock, what make them even more appropriate for backyard. I gonna call them this week and see if I can get one 13/1 and one Banilejo to experiment with them (Gomera 3 is the usual rootstock here).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 03:38:18 PM by Jose Spain »
Jose

simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2017, 05:51:09 PM »
very interesting reads. lots more work needs to be done on mango rootstocks. finding dwarfing or more productive types is definitely beneficial.

I have be collecting and growing many local fibrous mangos that are old surviving trees, all trees are over 50 years old and have endured cold and hurricanes, and what not. Some are turpentine, some are a mix of off types of turpentine and Caribbean fibrous mangos I suspect.

either way im experimenting and grafting with different types and keeping track of them. already, a difference in vigor is apparent in the rootstocks before grafting.

Hey Luke, one issue you may eventually run into is disease resistance of the rootstock or scion. I believe it was Tropicdude that brought up something regarding new rootstocks that Noris Ledesma may be working with. Since you are in Florida, you may want to get in touch with her or Richard Campbell.

Simon

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 06:32:02 PM »
Noris and Richard both use Turpentine. I think it isn't so much for salt tolerance but the EXTREME high pH/lime stone rubble they deal with in Homestead. We have 13-1 here so if it was really dwarfing in Florida I am sure they would either one of those two would have been all over it unless it can't handle the pH issue.

I know I keep bringing this up in a bunch of different threads but root binding is a major issue with mango and many other extremely vigorous tropical root systems. You could judiciously root prune your rootstocks and get them off to a strong start and fatten up the trunk like Yonemoto does in Japan before planting them out.

Now for the biggie that Simon has been working on for a while now. Multiple rootstocks. Then you have know way of really knowing what is doing what. I have a friend that grows mangos commercially and he direct sows his sprouted "Super Root" mango that he digs up from under the mother next to his trees he plants and inarches them. It is comical how much healthier and fat those root systems are compared to the contorted turpentine that are permanently twisted into the shape of a 1 gal pot straight out of the assembly line wholesale nurseries.


very interesting reads. lots more work needs to be done on mango rootstocks. finding dwarfing or more productive types is definitely beneficial.

I have be collecting and growing many local fibrous mangos that are old surviving trees, all trees are over 50 years old and have endured cold and hurricanes, and what not. Some are turpentine, some are a mix of off types of turpentine and Caribbean fibrous mangos I suspect.

either way im experimenting and grafting with different types and keeping track of them. already, a difference in vigor is apparent in the rootstocks before grafting.

Hey Luke, one issue you may eventually run into is disease resistance of the rootstock or scion. I believe it was Tropicdude that brought up something regarding new rootstocks that Noris Ledesma may be working with. Since you are in Florida, you may want to get in touch with her or Richard Campbell.

Simon
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simon_grow

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 07:13:55 PM »
Noris and Richard both use Turpentine. I think it isn't so much for salt tolerance but the EXTREME high pH/lime stone rubble they deal with in Homestead. We have 13-1 here so if it was really dwarfing in Florida I am sure they would either one of those two would have been all over it unless it can't handle the pH issue.

I know I keep bringing this up in a bunch of different threads but root binding is a major issue with mango and many other extremely vigorous tropical root systems. You could judiciously root prune your rootstocks and get them off to a strong start and fatten up the trunk like Yonemoto does in Japan before planting them out.

Now for the biggie that Simon has been working on for a while now. Multiple rootstocks. Then you have know way of really knowing what is doing what. I have a friend that grows mangos commercially and he direct sows his sprouted "Super Root" mango that he digs up from under the mother next to his trees he plants and inarches them. It is comical how much healthier and fat those root systems are compared to the contorted turpentine that are permanently twisted into the shape of a 1 gal pot straight out of the assembly line wholesale nurseries.


very interesting reads. lots more work needs to be done on mango rootstocks. finding dwarfing or more productive types is definitely beneficial.

I have be collecting and growing many local fibrous mangos that are old surviving trees, all trees are over 50 years old and have endured cold and hurricanes, and what not. Some are turpentine, some are a mix of off types of turpentine and Caribbean fibrous mangos I suspect.

either way im experimenting and grafting with different types and keeping track of them. already, a difference in vigor is apparent in the rootstocks before grafting.

Hey Luke, one issue you may eventually run into is disease resistance of the rootstock or scion. I believe it was Tropicdude that brought up something regarding new rootstocks that Noris Ledesma may be working with. Since you are in Florida, you may want to get in touch with her or Richard Campbell.

Simon

Thanks for bringing that up Vernmented! I've been using that information and started planting my seeds into pots painted with root trimming paint in order to create a healthy fibrous root system.

Simon

palmtreeluke

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 08:16:52 PM »
which disease would affect a rootstock? im using proven local rootstocks, Im also in a very isolated area and careful what I bring onto my farm. not to say I wont have any disease issues but here in florida it seems likes pests and disease is a concern we deal with constantly.

I actually asked Dr. Ledsema in a talk about her recommendation for rootstocks in FL. SHe mentioned the new ones they are working with 13-1 but she told me all the turpentines and local old trees all over the state would be the best at this point in time. I actually don't know if most nurseries even use this rootstock. Zill's nurseries claims all theirs are grafted on turpentine.

 Turpentine is salt tolerant. I collect seeds from  80 year old trees (planted by the 80 year old owner of the house) whose roots and fruit are in brackish tidal creeks with mullet and salt water. that tree has endured category 4 hurricanes and temperatures down to 23f.  There is even a bee hive in the trunk of the 'apple mango' tree next to it which im experimenting with.

Im hoping that this is a superior rootstock and is one im using to graft hundreds of mangos on.
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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2017, 01:32:00 AM »
 more cold tolerant ??

---
It is reproduced from seed. As a polyembrionic Mango, 90% of the seedlings are true to type. Adult trees are able to flower up to 3 times a year. If it is too cold or wet, they will loose the inflorescences and flower again, about 2 months later, until the right season for fruit set is matched. In order to achieve larger fruits sizes, it is good to remove by hand 1/3 of the fruits from the bunch. Gomera-1 fruits outdoors in coastal Mediterranean climates and it needs little or no protection in coastal Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece and also in the French Riviera.

Mango Gomera is regularly used as a rootstock for grafting throughout the Canary Islands and also in Andalusia. The use of the Canarian Hardy Mango as a rootstock permitted to push the commercial production of Mango in the Mediterranean basin, because the roots are hardier to cold and wet soil. All the different varieties of mango trees that we offer for sale are grafted on Gomera-1 rootstocks, so our customers in Europe will get the benefit of some added cold resistance from the roots.


http://www.canarius.com/blog/the-cold-hardy-gomera-1-mango-tree/309/

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2017, 02:08:54 AM »
In french, google can tanslate it:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/fr/notre-selection-de-porte-greffes


Viveros Blanco is a Spanish company here in Malaga, great professionals with a long experience in subtropicals. They have the site in English too:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/our-rootstock-selection

And here they describe some problems with rootstock criollo:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/presentation

IMO Gomera 3, 13/1 and Banilejo are interesting options for SoCal, since you share with us same climate and soil conditions. Besides the last two are moderate or little vigorous and in the case of 13/1 is almost a dwarfing rootstock, what make them even more appropriate for backyard. I gonna call them this week and see if I can get one 13/1 and one Banilejo to experiment with them (Gomera 3 is the usual rootstock here).


Hi Jose
I have tried many times to contact them but never got an answer
Do you know if they still sell  to the public?
In the home page
http://viverosblanco.com/en/
they write:
"We export plants anywhere in the world. Our latest exports have been to Morocco, Lebanon, Portugal, Greece and Italy."
Mike

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2017, 07:11:45 AM »
In french, google can tanslate it:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/fr/notre-selection-de-porte-greffes


Viveros Blanco is a Spanish company here in Malaga, great professionals with a long experience in subtropicals. They have the site in English too:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/our-rootstock-selection

And here they describe some problems with rootstock criollo:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/presentation

IMO Gomera 3, 13/1 and Banilejo are interesting options for SoCal, since you share with us same climate and soil conditions. Besides the last two are moderate or little vigorous and in the case of 13/1 is almost a dwarfing rootstock, what make them even more appropriate for backyard. I gonna call them this week and see if I can get one 13/1 and one Banilejo to experiment with them (Gomera 3 is the usual rootstock here).


Hi Jose
I have tried many times to contact them but never got an answer
Do you know if they still sell  to the public?
In the home page
http://viverosblanco.com/en/
they write:
"We export plants anywhere in the world. Our latest exports have been to Morocco, Lebanon, Portugal, Greece and Italy."
Hi! They only sell big quantities...

msk0072

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Re: Information and discussion on Mango rootstocks
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2017, 07:15:56 AM »
In french, google can tanslate it:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/fr/notre-selection-de-porte-greffes


Viveros Blanco is a Spanish company here in Malaga, great professionals with a long experience in subtropicals. They have the site in English too:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/our-rootstock-selection

And here they describe some problems with rootstock criollo:

http://www.viverosblanco.com/en/presentation

IMO Gomera 3, 13/1 and Banilejo are interesting options for SoCal, since you share with us same climate and soil conditions. Besides the last two are moderate or little vigorous and in the case of 13/1 is almost a dwarfing rootstock, what make them even more appropriate for backyard. I gonna call them this week and see if I can get one 13/1 and one Banilejo to experiment with them (Gomera 3 is the usual rootstock here).


Hi Jose
I have tried many times to contact them but never got an answer
Do you know if they still sell  to the public?
In the home page
http://viverosblanco.com/en/
they write:
"We export plants anywhere in the world. Our latest exports have been to Morocco, Lebanon, Portugal, Greece and Italy."
Hi! They only sell big quantities...

...how big?
Mike

 

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