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Author Topic: California Super Mango rootstock experiment  (Read 6310 times)

raimeiken

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2016, 05:42:02 PM »
i love reading your progress on this, especially that we share the same soil conditions. I'd love to get a rootstock that will do very well in our native soil without having to heavily amend and baby the trees here. Would make mango growing here much much easier.

JF

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2016, 06:02:33 PM »
i love reading your progress on this, especially that we share the same soil conditions. I'd love to get a rootstock that will do very well in our native soil without having to heavily amend and baby the trees here. Would make mango growing here much much easier.

If you lower the ph in your soil and water some varieties on turpentine  work in Socal. 2 year old Coc cream and jehangir on turpentine rootstock.





Mark in Texas

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2016, 08:19:15 AM »
I feel your pain Simon and can relate - I recently had a lower lumbar back surgery with a "recovery" that was hell regarding pinched nerves, and still is, am scheduled to have another surgery with rods/screws installed by a different neurosurgeon, have a farm/house/wife to take care of and tomorrow we open for our Xmas Choose-n-cut season.  ??? I just pull up my big girl panties, suck it up, go reaaallllll slow and gitter done.  Good luck and happy T-D everyone!




simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2017, 07:02:52 PM »
As expected, the multiple rootstock trees that were innarched together have not flowered yet. There really is no reason for them to flower as mature scion was not grafted onto them. These seedlings are a combination of poly and Monoembryonic varieties in hopes of better adaptability to various soil conditions and bioburden.







Simon

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2017, 01:11:46 PM »
A quick update on this experiment, I created several of these California Super Mango rootstock trees and theses trees are basically like my Double stone graft trees but some have more rootstocks innarched to them and these CSMR trees are Not grafted with mature scions.

At a bit past the 1 year mark, all the trees are still alive and I have not experienced any of the issues that the DSG trees had, namely, low survivability and precocity which stunts the trees because much energy is spent on flowering and fruiting.

Instead, these trees are thriving and all the energy that would have gone into flowering and fruiting is stored in the wood until the climate is appropriately warm enough to push a vegetative flush which is strong and lush.

I was busy with my family and some of these CSMR trees were kept in a tiny container too long and appears to have slightly delayed itís growth. Also, more rootstocks does not appear to be the biggest factor affecting rapid growth. I have some Double rootstock( CSMR, Not grafted with mature scions) trees that are outperforming CSMR trees with 5+ rootstocks. I would hazard to guess however that the CSMR trees with more rootstocks and thusly more genetically diverse, will be more disease resistant although this is all assumption for now. I should note that my CSMR trees with 5+ rootstocks happen to be the trees that were kept in too small a container because I was trying to force them to create numerous hairy feeder roots by confining them in small pots treated with Microkote as you may have read in the early pages of this thread. My mistake was keeping them in super small pots for waaaay too long before up potting.

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2017, 01:17:26 PM »
Here is a California Super Mango Rootstock tree that is a little over 1 year old and grown in a large pot. It only has two rootstocks and is about 3 ft tall and 3.5 feet wide. It appears to be getting ready for one last push for the year. Notice the strong trunk.









Simon

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2017, 01:35:15 PM »
I forgot to mention that although none of the trees have died, some of the weaker seedling grafts did die back leaving fewer than the original number of rootstocks. This seedling started out with about 6 rootstocks and it only has about 3-4 left but the remaining rootstocks appear to be strong.

When I compare these CSMR seedlings to normal seedlings planted at the same time, the growth of these multiple rootstock trees is at least double and in some cases triple that of a normal seedling.

This is for trees that have been somewhat neglected and only occasionally fertilized.

I performed another experiment where seedling trees were fertilized With smart release fertilizers( Nutricote) combined with other fertilizers and also up potted at the appropriate growth points and these single rootstock trees performed phenomenally.

I was able to get newly planted seedlings to grow close to 2 feet tall in about 4 months.

To be fair to my CSMR trees, they did not get Nutricote during the critical young seedling stage so I can only imagine how large they would be if they did!

I apologize that all this info is jumbled up into a huge mess that only I can decipher but thatís the way my brain works. I am trying to be as open and candid as possible and Iím reporting all failures and successes.

My experiments are dynamic and this makes it difficult to show exact comparisons between strictly controlled test subjects. For example, after I found out how wonderful Nutricote is for my trees, I applied it to all my experiments but different trees got the fertilizers at different stages of growth which can affect the outcome. As I find out what works and what doesnít, I stop using the techniques that I have already proved to have issues and I adapt new techniques that I find promising.

Simon

greenman62

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2017, 02:12:59 PM »
Simon
this is awsome stuff. so glad you are documenting.
i have been planning on doing something similar
my grafting abilities are not the best, and i am practicing that first.

One thought i had, was that , is it not just the pot, but also the makeup of the soil
and particle size that would determine root branching ?

i remember pulling a papaya out of a container, and the roots looked like my hair.
it was grown with a lot of builders sand (larger particle sand)
ive been trying to use some sand AND perlite in all my mixes since.

also
i actually started some simple experiments with hormones a while back.
you  might want to look into it, in helping the roots branch more early.
what i had noticed was multi-stalks, and lots of aerial branching very early.
(i wasnt looking at roots, i wish i would have though)


greenman62

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2017, 02:18:45 PM »
another thing that would be very curious to me
is if you use multiple seeds and graft them together...
and... if you dont graft  to the top, but let them grow and fruit
what would it taste like ?
if you grow a Manilla and a Kent and graft them together, what size would the fruit be ?

It may be a fast way of creating a new variety,
 since the seed should hold those genetics (i think?)
and you could grow it out.

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2017, 02:50:55 PM »
another thing that would be very curious to me
is if you use multiple seeds and graft them together...
and... if you dont graft  to the top, but let them grow and fruit
what would it taste like ?
if you grow a Manilla and a Kent and graft them together, what size would the fruit be ?

It may be a fast way of creating a new variety,
 since the seed should hold those genetics (i think?)
and you could grow it out.

The fruit should not be affected much. The multiple rootstocks will increase vigor and in this manner, the tree will be larger and healthier which in turn may yield larger and sweeter Fruit but the overall flavor of the fruit should not be affected to any great extent.

In experiments with citrus and melons, firmness and Brix were affected. With horizontal gene transfer at the graft site, scions arising from the resulting chimera will have new genetic material but who knows exactly what the new DNA encodes for? If the new genes were expressed in the grafted scion wood, we could see some differences in the new plant but nothing significant has been observed so far.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2017, 12:30:23 AM »
Here is a CSMR tree planted into the ground at Spaughís place. Itís about 3-4 feet tall and was planted into the ground about 2 months ago. It is a little over 1 year old.



Simon
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 12:32:22 AM by simon_grow »

Mark in Texas

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2017, 09:32:25 AM »
Amazing work Simon!

Are you saying there's some kind of gene, DNA, transfer from the rootstock to the scion?  Wondering if that would be like genotype transfers such as imparting cold hardiness and fruit quality.

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2017, 01:38:47 PM »
Thereís a lot of articles out there that talk about scion rootstock influences but I believe you are more interested in the lateral gene transfer between plant grafts at the Union such as the case with my CSMR?
Here is one article that explains it a bit. https://m.phys.org/news/2014-06-species-sex.html

By using multiple rootstocks from a diverse genetic pool such as the use of both Polyembryonic( CRFG says polys are resistant to Anthracnose) and Monoembryonic (CRFG says monos are more resistant to Powdery Mildew) seedlings, I hope that the rootstocks that are more adaptable will survive and the rootstocks may even be able to impart resistance to specific bioburdens.

I have a thread on Mango rootstocks that talks more specifically about other Mangifera species that are known to impart benefits. Dr Richard Campbell, Noris Ledesma and Dr Crane would know much more about this subject than myself.

I want everyone to know that what Iím doing is not Science. Iím simply very curious and performing basic experiments, not even really experiments because I donít have real controls, to see what may work for an average backyard gardener. I do keep up with the latest technologies regarding gardening especially as it relates to growing Mango but what Iím trying to come up with is a technique that can be utilized by average gardeners that donít have access to test fields and DNA sequencing technologies.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2017, 08:00:16 PM »
I just want to post some pictures to document the growth rate of some of my new experimental seedlings. I want to post images of the seedlings along with the date they were planted into their pots. The date that is on the label is the date that I stuck the seed into the pot.

These experiments are a continuation of my DSG(Double Stone Graft) experiments which failed due to low survivability and multiple issues associated with grafting with mature scions, namely that they flower in about one year from seed sprouting.

From my previous California Super Mango Rootstock experiments, Iíve concluded that two rootstocks is enough to boost the vigor of young plants and this minimizes the use of rootstocks and time it takes to graft. I did notice slightly more vigor on plants with more than two rootstocks but the time and effort is not worth the slight increase in vigor compared to double rootstocks. The difference between the vigor on single vs double rootstocks is dramatic.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2017, 08:09:08 PM »
This year, I will be innarching polyembryonic varieties such as Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart with vigorous Puerto Rican Turpentine seedlings from Leo Manuel. Leo was right and these PR seedlings that he recommended to me is one of the most vigorous seedlings I have seen.

They have caught up to and exceeded the growth of all other seeds I planted this year. Here is a picture of Lemon Zest, Sweet Tart,  Valencia Pride, Keitt and several other varieties that are 1-2 months older than the PR Turpentine seedlings but the PR Turpentine seedlings are 2-3 inches taller than all other seedlings.
















Simon
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 09:43:01 PM by simon_grow »

raimeiken

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2017, 08:10:22 PM »
those look great! how do you germinate the seeds? do you just crack them open and plant?

waxy

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2017, 12:51:00 PM »
those look great! how do you germinate the seeds? do you just crack them open and plant?

I usually let the fruit ripen then eat it, once all the flesh is gone I crack the seed open.
The embryo usually starts growing by that time, 99% germination for me.

Sometimes I get a polyembryonic seed and 2 seedlings appear, I just snip off the slower grower.
Allows energy to focus on a single branch for optimal growth.

I've actually shipped out some seeds to several folks on here already rooting not too long ago.
Just full sun and they're trying to reach for the sky.

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2017, 03:40:06 PM »
I just remove the husk and germinate the embryo with bottom heat around 90-100F to the point the root begins elongation but the stem has not grown yet. Once I see the root, I plant it into pots or grow bags. I only do this in Winter. In Summer, I remove the husk and stick the embryo in pots or raised beds and they germinate when theyíre ready.

It is very difficult to germinate mango seeds in marginal climates without bottom heat. I use a seedling heat mat with a thermostat. I use two mats on to of each other to reach 100F but the temperatures directly above the mat are much lower than the 100F reading.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2017, 09:41:59 PM »
Here is the next round of multiple rootstock trees. In case you havenít been following my threads, Iíve made a lot of progress in regards to finding out what does and doesnít work.

For this round of grafts, ive decided to add only one additional rootstock because having more than one additional rootstock only increases the growth by a little and doesnít warrant the time and materials to justify the slight increase in growth.

For the additional rootstock, I chose to use the Puerto Rican Turpentine rootstock suggested to me my Leo Manuel and so far, it is showing exceptional growth compared to all other rootstocks Iíve tested so far.

I am innarching seedlings from top tier polyembryonic varieties such as Orange Sherbet, Lemon Zest and Sweet Tart along with a few Monoembryonic varieties. Iím using these polyembryonic varieties because the clonal nature of the non zygotic seedlings should give me plants nearly identical to the parent variety without inheriting the florigenic hormones circulating in mature scion wood.

Iím avoiding mature scion wood because my DSG( Double Stone Graft) experiments taught me that the cold weather in my marginal climate is too strong a stimulus and will undoubtedly promote flowering even in seedlings within the first winter.

By utilizing top tier polyembryonic seedlings, I can create robust, strong double rootstock trees that grow at an accelerated rate due to having multiple rootstocks and I avoid unnecessary expenditure of energy which is normally wasted by flowering and holding onto fruit. Instead of flowering my CSMR trees have gone into a dormant state in Winter and then flushed with vigor once warm weather arrives. I can imagine that all the energy that would have gone into flowering is now saved up and stored in the tree, potentially allowing the young tree to push one or more additional vegetative flushes.

Here is an Orange Sherbet seedling innarched with one additional PR Turpentine rootstock. I will allow the grafted area to heal over at which point, the callous tissue would have expanded and started to split the parafilm. Once the grafted region has completely healed, I will top the PR Turpentine seedling leaving only the selected seedling with two intact root systems.





Lemon Zest

Sweet Tart

Edward Seedling, Edward is a cross between a polyembryonic and Monoembryonic Mango and anecdotal evidence suggests it may have slightly better resistance to both Anthracnose and Powdery Mildew. This seedling will be grafted with a Lemon Zest scion in the future to see if it is able to fruit in locations heavily infested with Powdery Mildew.

Simon

FreshOne

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2018, 06:11:16 PM »
Would grafting two 1-year old Lavern manila seedling from HD work?





marklee

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2018, 09:05:51 PM »
Would grafting two 1-year old Lavern manila seedling from HD work?
All the time

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2018, 10:49:33 PM »
It should work but it wonít have as much genetic diversity. I like to use one polyembryonic and one Monoembryonic variety.

Also be aware that Lavern may be selling Turpentine rootstock Mango trees soon. I was notified by a friend that visited the nursery.

Simon

Mark in Texas

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2018, 08:54:25 AM »
Also be aware that Lavern may be selling Turpentine rootstock Mango trees soon. I was notified by a friend that visited the nursery.

Simon

Hi Simon, what's the problem with Turpentine?

simon_grow

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2018, 10:50:11 PM »
Hey Mark, the grafted trees that many of us in SoCal have purchased from Florida have very unfavorable growth habits. They have a horrible issue with overly droopy branches which require extensive staking and many of the varieties that are not considered vigorous grow at an abnormally slow rate and have early lignification of small diameter stems. There is also extensive issues with gummosis and cracking of the bark. When a friend sent out samples to get tested at a lab, it was determined to be Phomopsis affecting his trees.

Early investigation indicated that the Florida trees were grafted onto some sort of Turpentine rootstock. Not all Turpentine rootstocks are bad as you can see from Leo Manuelís huge trees but Leo used Turpentine seedlings.

Here is a post with more information
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=15673.0

When random Mango seedlings or Lavern Manilla rootstocks are planted next to each other, the random seedlings and Lavern Manilla trees thrive while the Florida rootstock trees decline.

Simon

behlgarden

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Re: California Super Mango rootstock experiment
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2018, 10:54:20 AM »
Simon, difference here could be turpentine adaptability to more water and wet feet compared to dry California weather. Ashok has had some success on this Florida trees with excessive watering.

 

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