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Author Topic: Killing and controlling methods for scales  (Read 8261 times)

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2016, 09:56:40 AM »

Mark, is this the pesticide you are talking about? Does it also work against hard and soft shelled scales?

36.8 % Permethrin SFR 32 oz Pest Control Insecticide

https://www.amazon.com/36-8-Permethrin-Pest-Control-Insecticide/dp/B003IMO3I2/ref=pd_sbs_86_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003IMO3I2&pd_rd_r=BCWY94Y99W63YTXD4QYZ&pd_rd_w=Aa6uU&pd_rd_wg=rREAC&psc=1&refRID=BCWY94Y99W63YTXD4QYZ


Yeah, that's it.  I use the commercial grade, gallon size, called Tenguard. http://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/SPEC/LABELS/Tengard_SFR_2010_label.pdf

Amazing product, a "natural" pyrethroid that just kicks ass but is safe enough to use on dogs, which haven't tried BTW.  We had an epidemic of grasshoppers this year and one low dose spray had them dead within a minute.  They'd get into the greenhouse and have a meal on everything - mangos, cados, citrus, etc. so I kept a qt. sprayer handy of the mix.

My go-to for scale is oil and malathion.  Haven't tried the Tenguard but would not be hesitant to experiment and use it.  I've got a lot of products in my toolbox, being a commercial farmer. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:00:31 AM by Mark in Texas »

Daintree

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2016, 10:59:53 AM »
I have mealy bugs.  Yuck! The good thing is that, with the exception of a few spider mites here and there, they are my ONLY pest.
My trees are too big to drown (50 or so 5-10 ft trees in pots), and are in my greenhouse with about a dozen tropical birds loose in there, so this has been a big issue for me.  I did not have much luck with neem oil, and in the winter when I can't ventilate, the smell would get really bad.  I use Bayer systemic (imidicloprid), but I really can't see much progress. I keep with it though, just in case.
My latest tactic has been 50% rubbing alcohol in a spray bottle, mixed with the appropriate amount (about 1 tsp per pint) pyrethrin.  The rubbing alcohol gives a fast kill and the pyrethrin holds them back for a while.  The smell isn't too bad and it dissipates very quickly, unlike the neem oil. It seems to work really well and the plants don't mind it at all.
With the birds out there, I can't use anything stronger than pyrethrin or neem, and even with that, I can't just start spraying at random.  I go tree-by-tree.  I go leaf-by-leaf in the case of my kukui, which are always the hardest hit.
The big thing for me is that I just have to keep on it, and never let my guard down.  I have a fanciful vision of the future where I have actually eliminated all the squishy white critters!
They are expensive, but this spring I am going to order some mealy bug destroyers (Cryptolaemus Montrouzieri).  Hopefully they can do the trick. I would like to raise my own beetles and keep them on hand when I need them, so I am doing a bit of research into what else I can feed them if I am lucky enough to run out of mealy bugs!

Carolyn

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2016, 11:14:11 AM »
I haven't tried using them separately, so I don't know if they are effective when used alone. I don't use sulfur for insect problems, only to drop soil pH or to combat powdery mildew.

Jeff, do you use both AzaSol and BotaniGard against scales? Or  AzaSol is enough?  Would you recommend spraying all of my plants with sulfur to get rid of scales and mold?

Thanks
Onur
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2016, 11:24:04 AM »
If it came down to either the tree dying or using Sevin, it would seem pretty logical to deal with the collateral damage. But that is simply not true -- I've had no issue controlling scale with organic pesticides. Lobate lac is the only one that requires a bit more persistence.

Sevin will wipe out anything on and underneath the tree, including earthworms and millipedes. I tried it once before and marveled at the thousands of dead millipedes that littered the ground afterwards. I don't get why one would select this method over another method with equal effectiveness but without the collateral damage? Common sense requires using the least toxic / least harmful method to get the job done vs just a brute force bomb attack.

Sometimes its better to use Sevin and have the tree survive, than have the tree die a slow organic approved death.

Bravo!  It never ceases to amaze me how many will let their organic (religious) beliefs get in the way of controlling a pest the sure and safe way using approved and legal pesticides.  Having said that......

One or more apps of a horticultural oil with malathion will get them.  Best control is during the soft crawling stage but it will get the hard scale ones too.

If someone knows and has any "beneficials" I'd be glad to try them.   I rarely if ever spray veggies, rarely have any pest pressures but if and when I do I won't hesitate to use a pesticide.  Permethrin is one of the best.

Mark
Jeff  :-)

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2016, 12:58:59 PM »
If it came down to either the tree dying or using Sevin, it would seem pretty logical to deal with the collateral damage. But that is simply not true -- I've had no issue controlling scale with organic pesticides. Lobate lac is the only one that requires a bit more persistence.

Sevin will wipe out anything on and underneath the tree, including earthworms and millipedes. I tried it once before and marveled at the thousands of dead millipedes that littered the ground afterwards. I don't get why one would select this method over another method with equal effectiveness but without the collateral damage? Common sense requires using the least toxic / least harmful method to get the job done vs just a brute force bomb attack.

Sometimes its better to use Sevin and have the tree survive, than have the tree die a slow organic approved death.

Bravo!  It never ceases to amaze me how many will let their organic (religious) beliefs get in the way of controlling a pest the sure and safe way using approved and legal pesticides.  Having said that......

One or more apps of a horticultural oil with malathion will get them.  Best control is during the soft crawling stage but it will get the hard scale ones too.

If someone knows and has any "beneficials" I'd be glad to try them.   I rarely if ever spray veggies, rarely have any pest pressures but if and when I do I won't hesitate to use a pesticide.  Permethrin is one of the best.

Mark

I don't use Sevin but have a friend who's into the organic thing, employee at a health food store, etc. that does.  Has a healthy garden with earthworms.

Organophosphate pesticides degrade rapidly by hydrolysis on exposure to sunlight, air, and soil,  Sevin is just another organophosphate (like malathion) that breaks down into the phosphate it was derived from with time.  Malathion is good for about 5 days if you apply it right and use a surfactant.

Like any pesticide/poison organic or not, you don't want to get stupid with this stuff and apply it recklessly nor expose children or pregnant women to it.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2016, 01:03:15 PM »
Speaking of earthworms, this is shot of my bare farmland near my veggie garden and fruit trees after a rain.  There must be 20 worm castings per s.f. in my clay loam.  Must be doing something right.  ;)

Closeup:



Typical ground coverage:



Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2016, 01:07:37 PM »
I have mealy bugs.  Yuck! The good thing is that, with the exception of a few spider mites here and there, they are my ONLY pest.
My trees are too big to drown (50 or so 5-10 ft trees in pots), and are in my greenhouse with about a dozen tropical birds loose in there, so this has been a big issue for me.  I did not have much luck with neem oil, and in the winter when I can't ventilate, the smell would get really bad.  I use Bayer systemic (imidicloprid), but I really can't see much progress. I keep with it though, just in case.
My latest tactic has been 50% rubbing alcohol in a spray bottle, mixed with the appropriate amount (about 1 tsp per pint) pyrethrin.  The rubbing alcohol gives a fast kill and the pyrethrin holds them back for a while.  The smell isn't too bad and it dissipates very quickly, unlike the neem oil. It seems to work really well and the plants don't mind it at all.
With the birds out there, I can't use anything stronger than pyrethrin or neem, and even with that, I can't just start spraying at random.  I go tree-by-tree.  I go leaf-by-leaf in the case of my kukui, which are always the hardest hit.
The big thing for me is that I just have to keep on it, and never let my guard down.  I have a fanciful vision of the future where I have actually eliminated all the squishy white critters!
They are expensive, but this spring I am going to order some mealy bug destroyers (Cryptolaemus Montrouzieri).  Hopefully they can do the trick. I would like to raise my own beetles and keep them on hand when I need them, so I am doing a bit of research into what else I can feed them if I am lucky enough to run out of mealy bugs!

Carolyn

Bayer imdacloprid is a ripoff.  Buy Adonis 75WP off Amazon.  $26 will buy you enough for the whole block.  We use it for sharpshooter control in Texas vineyards - carrier of the deadly Pierce's Disease.

Most any pesticide should kill mealy bugs.  If you're not getting a kill it suggests there's something wrong with the timing and/or dosage AND you're not adding a surfactant to the mix. Useless without it.

Forbid 4F is the silver bullet for ANY stage of development of mites and they won't build up an immunity to it.  It is not a toxin.

Good luck

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2016, 02:12:48 PM »
Earthworms can take some abuse. "Synthetic" fertilizers don't seem to harm worm populations as long as the soil is moist and full of organic content.

Sevin, on the other hand, is a broad spectrum pesticide that will efficiently knock down anything in its path, including earthworms, millipedes, foraging bees, etc. Golf courses use it to knock down earthworm populations (which disturb turf).

Sevin is great if you need to ship plants, knock down a population of ants, termites, etc.

However, indiscriminate use of products such as Sevin is not a sustainable approach to farming. It has nothing to do with organic or not. It's common sense. Anti-organic is a "religion" in itself. Why not just apply common sense and use whatever is the best product for the given scenario vs shunning one approach or another just because it's labeled "organic" or "synthetic"?

I don't use Sevin but have a friend who's into the organic thing, employee at a health food store, etc. that does.  Has a healthy garden with earthworms.

Organophosphate pesticides degrade rapidly by hydrolysis on exposure to sunlight, air, and soil,  Sevin is just another organophosphate (like malathion) that breaks down into the phosphate it was derived from with time.  Malathion is good for about 5 days if you apply it right and use a surfactant.

Like any pesticide/poison organic or not, you don't want to get stupid with this stuff and apply it recklessly nor expose children or pregnant women to it.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2016, 02:33:03 PM »
PS -- here is a good list of alternatives to organophosphates that the EPA is recommending: https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/reduced-risk-and-organophosphate-alternative-decisions-conventional

My approach to farming is to start off with the most benign / target specific product and work my way up to the most potent / broad spectrum product until I find one that works. There are multiple levels of EPA approved pesticides ranging from NOP-approved to bio-rational to reduced-risk all the way up to the most potent products.

This is similar to how most of us approach life. For a simple cold one might use aspirin, but for an ankle fracture one would likely use an opioid; and chemotherapy / radiation would be appropriate treatment for cancer but not for removing a wart.
Jeff  :-)

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2016, 02:52:57 PM »
Sevin will wipe out anything on and underneath the tree, including earthworms and millipedes. I tried it once before and marveled at the thousands of dead millipedes that littered the ground afterwards. I don't get why one would select this method over another method with equal effectiveness but without the collateral damage? Common sense requires using the least toxic / least harmful method to get the job done vs just a brute force bomb attack.

Precision Strikes :)
- Marley

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2016, 02:57:44 PM »
Thanks Mark. 
I looked at the label for the Adonis 75WP, and here is the thing that always confuses me - how the heck do I dose it for potted trees? If part (or all!) of my problem is dosage, how do I know how much to give each one?
The label has foliar application instructions, but the drenching instructions are for square feet or surface, and when I have looked at other products, the dosing for pots is way different than the dose for outdoor plants.
They are in 15-30 gallon pots, but the trunks are all sizes. Some have slim trunks but are very bushy with lots of branches and leaves, some have thick trunks but few leaves, depending on what it is.  I am always worried about killing my plants!

Carolyn

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 03:27:42 PM »
Organophosphate pesticides degrade rapidly by hydrolysis on exposure to sunlight, air, and soil,  Sevin is just another organophosphate (like malathion) that breaks down into the phosphate it was derived from with time.  Malathion is good for about 5 days if you apply it right and use a surfactant.

I understand there is science behind the breakdown for all chemicals, however, there is a hundred foot stretch along my parents property that was exposed to neighbor's overspray about 6 months ago and NOTHING has grown back (not even weeds).  The chemical used remains unknown but I'm guessing it was roundup being that the sod company was prepping the neighbors yard for new floratam. 

Given that this was a one time exposure I'm guessing turf/weeds will grow back but its taking an awful long time.  Chemicals ultimately break down but regular use will eventually change the chemical composition of the soil.  Now days trace amounts of pesticides regularly make their way into processed foods.  If I could afford it I would only feed my family organic foods but it is very difficult.
- Marley

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2016, 03:54:44 PM »
Thanks Mark. 
I looked at the label for the Adonis 75WP, and here is the thing that always confuses me - how the heck do I dose it for potted trees? If part (or all!) of my problem is dosage, how do I know how much to give each one?
The label has foliar application instructions, but the drenching instructions are for square feet or surface, and when I have looked at other products, the dosing for pots is way different than the dose for outdoor plants.
They are in 15-30 gallon pots, but the trunks are all sizes. Some have slim trunks but are very bushy with lots of branches and leaves, some have thick trunks but few leaves, depending on what it is.  I am always worried about killing my plants!

Carolyn

You won't kill your plants with Adonis.  I'd use a dose of 2 tsp/gallon for a soil drench.  For vineyards, soil drench under the canopy it's about 14 oz per acre split a month apart.  You can also foliar spray.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 03:56:00 PM »
My approach to farming is to start off with the most benign / target specific product and work my way up to the most potent / broad spectrum product until I find one that works. There are multiple levels of EPA approved pesticides ranging from NOP-approved to bio-rational to reduced-risk all the way up to the most potent products.

Ditto

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2016, 04:05:02 PM »

I understand there is science behind the breakdown for all chemicals, however, there is a hundred foot stretch along my parents property that was exposed to neighbor's overspray about 6 months ago and NOTHING has grown back (not even weeds).  The chemical used remains unknown....

There you have it.  You best find out.  Picloram, a broad leaved herbicide used in many grazing areas and now falling out of favor (and for very good reasons) can stay viable for decades in soils.  It binds with soil particles and doesn't easily break down....at least that's what I've been told by soil scientists.

Grasses or broad leaves?  I bet it was glyphosate only because of it's popularity.  Don't know where you are but it can have a long term effect from only a few weeks when pressures are high to months.   All depends on temps, activity of the grasses, varieties....many factors.  I've "burned down" rows with glyphosate and my efforts had a minimal positive effect.  I know how to use it to really get a bad ass burn down at a minimal rate, have applied hundreds of gallons of the decades with no issues.  We were in a drought at that time.  Your target must be in a state of normal growth activity for any herbicide to take effect.

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2016, 11:02:36 PM »
36.8 % Permethrin SFR 32 oz Pest Control Insecticide
Yeah, that's it.

Amazing product, a "natural" pyrethroid that just kicks ass but is safe enough to use on dogs, which haven't tried BTW.

Hi Mark,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Just thought I would add another animal other than Dogs to the list that have used permethrin on their body/hair.
Humans for lice treatment: NIX®  Permethrin
Active ingredient Permethrin  (1%).......................Lice treatment

There are many possible pollinators with honey bees being the most talked about.  It is still up in the air as to which insecticides are most dangerous to pollinators. So I try to use as little as possible but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2016, 09:06:06 AM »
36.8 % Permethrin SFR 32 oz Pest Control Insecticide
Yeah, that's it.

Amazing product, a "natural" pyrethroid that just kicks ass but is safe enough to use on dogs, which haven't tried BTW.

Hi Mark,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Just thought I would add another animal other than Dogs to the list that have used permethrin on their body/hair.
Humans for lice treatment: NIX®  Permethrin
Active ingredient Permethrin  (1%).......................Lice treatment

There are many possible pollinators with honey bees being the most talked about.  It is still up in the air as to which insecticides are most dangerous to pollinators. So I try to use as little as possible but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Howdy!  I use common sense and if it means that my controls might kill a few "beneficial insects", whatever and whoever they might be, then you do what you have to do.  The only chemical controls that I must use is on the nasty, devastating Nantucket Pine Tip Moth on my pine Christmas trees.  I spray with Adonis 75WP and Tenguard.  Timing is tricky yet essential.

Yes, bees are one of the dozens of pollinators I experience and have posted pix of them doing their biz on greenhouse tropical tree blossoms - different kinds of moths, flies, bees (not just honey), butterflies, wasps.  Not sure why folks tend to concentrate on bees only.  Guess it's another one of those paradigms.  :D

Here's a cool shot of one of those black spiders with the white dot on their head killing and eating a grasshopper.  I have also witnessed them feasting on a red wasp!
 


Bee and a fly with a shiny green body. Interesting note, the bee is feasting on a female avocado flower:


« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 09:11:23 AM by Mark in Texas »

onur

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2016, 08:01:21 PM »

Mark, is this the pesticide you are talking about? Does it also work against hard and soft shelled scales?

36.8 % Permethrin SFR 32 oz Pest Control Insecticide

https://www.amazon.com/36-8-Permethrin-Pest-Control-Insecticide/dp/B003IMO3I2/ref=pd_sbs_86_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003IMO3I2&pd_rd_r=BCWY94Y99W63YTXD4QYZ&pd_rd_w=Aa6uU&pd_rd_wg=rREAC&psc=1&refRID=BCWY94Y99W63YTXD4QYZ


Yeah, that's it.  I use the commercial grade, gallon size, called Tenguard. http://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/SPEC/LABELS/Tengard_SFR_2010_label.pdf

Amazing product, a "natural" pyrethroid that just kicks ass but is safe enough to use on dogs, which haven't tried BTW.  We had an epidemic of grasshoppers this year and one low dose spray had them dead within a minute.  They'd get into the greenhouse and have a meal on everything - mangos, cados, citrus, etc. so I kept a qt. sprayer handy of the mix.

My go-to for scale is oil and malathion.  Haven't tried the Tenguard but would not be hesitant to experiment and use it.  I've got a lot of products in my toolbox, being a commercial farmer.



Thank you Mark!

onur

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2016, 08:19:50 PM »

Mark, is this the pesticide you are talking about? Does it also work against hard and soft shelled scales?

36.8 % Permethrin SFR 32 oz Pest Control Insecticide

https://www.amazon.com/36-8-Permethrin-Pest-Control-Insecticide/dp/B003IMO3I2/ref=pd_sbs_86_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003IMO3I2&pd_rd_r=BCWY94Y99W63YTXD4QYZ&pd_rd_w=Aa6uU&pd_rd_wg=rREAC&psc=1&refRID=BCWY94Y99W63YTXD4QYZ


Yeah, that's it.  I use the commercial grade, gallon size, called Tenguard. http://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/SPEC/LABELS/Tengard_SFR_2010_label.pdf

Amazing product, a "natural" pyrethroid that just kicks ass but is safe enough to use on dogs, which haven't tried BTW.  We had an epidemic of grasshoppers this year and one low dose spray had them dead within a minute.  They'd get into the greenhouse and have a meal on everything - mangos, cados, citrus, etc. so I kept a qt. sprayer handy of the mix.

My go-to for scale is oil and malathion.  Haven't tried the Tenguard but would not be hesitant to experiment and use it.  I've got a lot of products in my toolbox, being a commercial farmer.


Which type of oil do you mean Mark, when you say "oil and malathion"... It is neem oil, not olive oil, is it? Sorry about my inorance! :)  In what amount do you mix them? Before, I had sprayed neem oil mixed with water over my trees, but did not really like the result... It seemed to be damaging the foliage...

onur

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2016, 08:21:28 PM »
I haven't tried using them separately, so I don't know if they are effective when used alone. I don't use sulfur for insect problems, only to drop soil pH or to combat powdery mildew.

Jeff, do you use both AzaSol and BotaniGard against scales? Or  AzaSol is enough?  Would you recommend spraying all of my plants with sulfur to get rid of scales and mold?

Thanks
Onur
[/q



Thanks Jeff!

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2016, 08:23:00 PM »
If temps are under 90F when you apply and 24 hours thereafter, a mix of dormant oil and malathion is the ticket.  Just got rid of soft scale on a blood orange.  Wouldn't have notice it if I hadn't seen the soot.

Also, keep control of ants.

Second this. 

For hard scale- credit card scrape (pia) then malathion sprayed two feet in either non infested direction. Reapply after rain as it will wash off.  Also circle trunk at base to stop ants.  After several applications no further hard scale.



Does Malathion work well against hard scales without mixing with oil?

Daintree

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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2017, 01:41:01 PM »

You won't kill your plants with Adonis.  I'd use a dose of 2 tsp/gallon for a soil drench.  For vineyards, soil drench under the canopy it's about 14 oz per acre split a month apart.  You can also foliar spray.

Ok Mark, I need advice.  I got the Adonis 75WSP.  It says to mix one packet with 300 gallons of water.  I measured the stuff in one packet, and there are 12 tablespoons.  So that would be about 1/12 of a TEASPOON per gallon.  Whenever I buy stuff that is dosed for large quantities, that is how I calculate it, by dividing the contents down to get the amount per gallon.

Because I am paranoid about insecticides and don't have much knowledge other than the very-scary product label, it feels like 2 tsp per gallon is some sort of super-dose that will cause a zombie apocalypse in my greenhouse.  Have you actually used this exact product at the dosage you mentioned, as a drench for potted plants? What about a dose for foliar spray?

Could be that the reason I can't get rid of the bugs is that I am waaaaay under-dosing, and just breeding really healthy, insecticide-resistant mealy bugs!  On the other hand, I have my pet birds out there... I WILL take the pots into the citrus house, where the birds can't reach, to spray/drench them, and not put them back until they are dry.  Anything too big to move, I will only drench, and not spray, so I don't have any spray lingering in the bird area.

So anyway, any experience you have with this dosage in potted plants would be GREAT!

Carolyn


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Re: Killing and controlling methods for scales
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2017, 11:51:28 PM »
How long does it take for Adonis 75WSP to break down in the soil? Imidacloprid from what I can gather attaches itself to organic matter in the soil. I drenched one mango tree last year that looked like it was dying and was wondering when it would be safe to eat the fruit.

 

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