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Author Topic: Growing Mango trees in Southern California  (Read 65552 times)

Viraldonutz

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #400 on: April 20, 2020, 09:55:28 PM »
Wow, I just read this whole thread, and I can't even begin to comment.  So much useful stuff!  Thanks everyone -- I hope to be able to contribute to it myself, soon enough!
--Jake

strom

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #401 on: April 24, 2020, 09:16:13 AM »
Hello, another newbie question: how old should mango from seed be if chosen as a root graft here in so cal?

I sprouted a large, green/red costco mango last August, had a single sprout only, put into a a 3" pot in October, pinched the top in December, and put it into a 7 gallon pot mid March - before actually knowing you are supposed to slowly up-pot fruit trees, oops.  It had a very small root system.  Sadly, I didn't note the type of mango.  I'm not sure if I should practice grafting to it, or, grow it a few years and see if it'll fruit.

This thread was a lot of fun to read a few times through, inspiring :)

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #402 on: April 24, 2020, 01:18:01 PM »
You can graft as a sapling but I highly recommend allowing the tree to get large before top working. If you Graft a small tree with mature scions, it will flower within the next year. Iíve grafted hundreds of mango saplings using epicotyl grafts and Iíve also grafted many year old saplings and they will flower within a year unless you bring them in during cold weather or if you Graft with seedling scions.

When these young trees flower, it significantly slows down the rate of growth because energy is put into flowering and not into vegetative growth. The leaves are the trees solar panels and if the tree didnít waste itís energy on flowering, it would have approximately twice as many leaves. There is then the additive effect that each additional leaf it would have had, could capture that much more sun energy.

This process then repeats every winter and the tree that was grafted when small will again bloom and the seedling that was not grafted will again grow vegetatively once the weather is sufficiently warm enough for growth.

Here are a couple seedlings that were grafted as a young sapling:
CAC graft on White Pirie seedling

Sweet Tart graft on Kent seedling



Same grafted sweet Tart on Kent rootstock vs Kent Seedling that was not grafted. The trees are the same age but look at the difference in height. Donít count height of the flower stock on the grafted tree because it will be removed anyways. The ungrafted tree is twice the height of the grafted tree.



In case anyone is wondering, yes, these roughly 12 inch tall trees grafted with mature scions will attempt to hold fruit to maturity but the fruit will be tiny, may not fully ripen and will severely stunt your tree. Here is another Sweet Tart grafted onto Fruit Cocktail seedling holding several tiny fruit.


It is best to graft trees when they have reached a mature fruiting size, ideally about 4+ feet tall with several well developed scaffold branches.

The issue with this technique is that you will have to know how to top work a mature tree and you will need to perform multiple grafts and will require multiple scions.

When grafting saplings, you only need a single scion and if you perform epicotyl grafts, you can get near 100% takes.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #403 on: April 24, 2020, 01:34:36 PM »
If you are new to grafting, it is ok to graft you g saplings but the growth will be slower. You will also have to remove about half to 3/4 of the bloom panicle each year in order to minimize drooping.

Wether you have a grafted or ungrafted mango tree, you should stake up any drooping branches so that the scaffold branches are shaped in the way you prefer. For me, the more vertical the branches the better because the more vertical the branches are, the less likely they are to flower but this effect is minimal compared to cold stimulus in floral induction.

If your tree is already sturdy and vertical, there is no need to stake it up. The action of the wind blowing a tree causing it to sway in the breeze will actually stiffen up the tree and make the trunk and branches stronger.

Simon

strom

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #404 on: April 24, 2020, 07:30:40 PM »
Cool, thanks.  Sounds like the best option is to give it another ~3 years. 

I have read about the issues associated with blooming too early grafting mature scion and cold weather, but presenting it again as you have made it a lot more clear, thank you for that :)  The tip was nipped because I didn't know any better, thought they were like avocados.  The plant has been relatively dormant, is now about 8" tall or so, and finally beginning to show growth at the top.  Brown leaf tips are likely from the poor soil choice in the 3" pot.  Someone posted an interesting video today about pruning mangos, it was quite informative!

I have no grafting experience.  The local costco had some oxnard grown ataulfos I'll maybe try sprouting them and learn how to graft.  Will need to research :)

Because there's very little space to work with, I am trying to do as much reading and theorizing before making decisions.  It's a little overwhelming reviewing about the dozens of types available, how does one new to this go about tasting the different types?  Or, just get something and go?

Thanks!


simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #405 on: April 24, 2020, 08:53:14 PM »
You can read through the old threads like this one here:
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31734.msg349437#msg349437
There wasnít a lot of info last years but the years prior to 2019 has lots of good info regarding members favorite varieties for each given year.

This thread is a bit more relevant with a bit of info regarding the best tasting and reliable Mangos for SoCal.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31480.msg347770#msg347770

Some of the best tasting varieties like Lemon Zest, hardly produce here( without spraying) because of disease issues.

Sweet Tart,Venus, CAC, Edward, Peach Cobbler, NDM, Gary, Carrie and several other varieties have proven to be productive over several years of observations and at various locations around SoCal. Other varieties that are promising but lacking data are Cotton Candy, E4, Juicy Peach.

Leo Manuel also has multiple good to excellent tasting varieties that are productive in areas with high fungal disease pressures.

Simon

strom

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #406 on: April 24, 2020, 10:27:59 PM »
Yup, thanks, I have read both those threads at least three times through each, and I plan to stay away from Lemon Zest (which you wouldn't know since I'm new here and didn't volunteer the info, so I do appreciate you confirming! :)).  Sorry if it sounds like I'm whining, just trying to figure out how to get through all the info.  For example, put yourself in the shoes of someone new, and look at this thread on compact mangoes.. there are 35 varieties listed right up front.  Reading what others write will get you only so far.  I really want to try a sweet tart, but, it's not on the compact list, so I probably won't get one.

I suppose after the stay-home orders are released, I'll just start browsing stores and paying attention to the fruit before purchasing, I think I saw fruits for sale occasionally through the buy/sell here as well, then cross reference anything I eat/find with the two threads (California and Compact).  Is that how it's usually done?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 10:29:50 PM by strom »

strom

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #407 on: April 24, 2020, 10:42:37 PM »
Ah, sorry to double post, I just compared both the california producers list and the compact list, and narrowed it down to 10 types.  Now it's a lot easier to handle.  Of course, the list could be incomplete, and there are probably exceptions, but I have something to work with now :)  10 much easier that 35 in one and 32 in the other! ;D

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #408 on: April 25, 2020, 07:50:33 PM »
Strom, I wouldnít worry about getting a compact Mango unless you are severely restricted in regards to space, for example, if youíre living in an apartment/condo or if you have to keep it in a pot.

Mangos grow much better in warmer areas and mango trees often get fungal afflictions in our cold wet winters. The dwarf or condo type mangos grow very slowly in our climate and I would recommend planting a vigorous variety instead. You may need to trim the plant more frequently but youíll likely get more fruit because the vigorous varieties will reach fruiting size more rapidly.

My friends Pickering and Cogshall was over 12 years old and was just a tiny Bush. The Cogshall eventually died and the Pickering eventually faded away as well.

Simon

strom

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #409 on: April 25, 2020, 10:20:43 PM »
Strom, I wouldnít worry about getting a compact Mango unless you are severely restricted in regards to space, for example, if youíre living in an apartment/condo or if you have to keep it in a pot.
((snip))
My friends Pickering and Cogshall was over 12 years old and was just a tiny Bush. The Cogshall eventually died and the Pickering eventually faded away as well.

Thanks.  Yeah, I have specific situation which prevents me from anything large, which is further complicated through minimal full-sun yard space.  Cogshall and Pickering are not in the "grows well in CA" thread, so, I already ruled those out. 

It's very possible that mangos won't be suited to my environment, but, I don't want to fill up this thread with my quandary.  I'm going to keep researching all the fruits, and probably post a separate topic later for advice after I've narrowed things down.  I'm rather new to gardening overall, so am taking it slow :)

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #410 on: May 22, 2020, 02:51:10 PM »
Here are some updates to some seedling mangos that Brad and I planted at the orchard. We initially planted a bunch of Florida trees because they were already purchased before Brad and I partnered up but most eventually died and the few remaining trees are either stunted or so droopy and diseased that were probably going to just pull them all out if Brad hasnít already done so.

These are some seedling trees, some from Polyembryonic seeds, some from Monoembryonic seeds. The seedling trees tend to have a nice, upright structure that is not droopy. Most these trees are only a year or two old, I think the biggest one is 2-3 years old.







Simon

SHV

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #411 on: May 22, 2020, 04:15:27 PM »
Those are damn big for only 2-3 years old!  How long were they in a pot before planted in the ground?  Did they spend their first couple winters in a greenhouse?  Those are some beautiful seedlings. And one already has flowers!  Nice work guys. I would love to replicate that early growth with some of my seedlings.

spaugh

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #412 on: May 22, 2020, 04:36:58 PM »
The seeds go for around a year in a pot then in the ground.  Greenhouse or simons yard for the first winter.     

The seedling trees definitely do better with the first 3 years of no flowering compared to a pre grafted tree.  The flowering is so strong here it just stunts small trees.   
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #413 on: May 22, 2020, 05:22:18 PM »
Very nice growth.

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #414 on: May 22, 2020, 05:42:58 PM »
We like to vet the seedlings through one winter whenever possible. Some seedlings are just inherently weaker or more prone to disease and by grafting seedlings that have gone through a SoCal Winter, we are able to weed out the weaker stock.

Iíve also had great luck with direct seeding mango seeds into the ground. These are usually very vigorous because there is not transplant shock. I sometimes go against my own advice and graft them when they are too small because i have scions available and donít want to toss the scions.

The good thing about starting them in pots is that you can move them into your garage or greenhouse in Winter and you can also root prune your trees to create a more dense root system.

Simon

shinzo

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #415 on: May 25, 2020, 08:37:30 AM »
We like to vet the seedlings through one winter whenever possible. Some seedlings are just inherently weaker or more prone to disease and by grafting seedlings that have gone through a SoCal Winter, we are able to weed out the weaker stock.

Iíve also had great luck with direct seeding mango seeds into the ground. These are usually very vigorous because there is not transplant shock. I sometimes go against my own advice and graft them when they are too small because i have scions available and donít want to toss the scions.

The good thing about starting them in pots is that you can move them into your garage or greenhouse in Winter and you can also root prune your trees to create a more dense root system.

Simon

Interesting thread and detailed explanations, even though i am in a different country, but a mediterranean one (Tunisia) so i guess the climate is similar to yours.
When you seed directly in the ground, do you protect / shade the young seedling during the first week when it emerges in order to prevent hot sun damage on the young leaves?

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #416 on: May 27, 2020, 01:12:11 AM »
No, I let the seedlings grow directly in full sun. I donít baby the seedling but I will protect new grafts from temps above about 85F. For grafts, the first two weeks are critical so I protect them if its hot. For seedlings, I donít give them any protection.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #417 on: May 27, 2020, 01:32:55 PM »
Hereís a quick update on my Sweet Tart seedlings. I planted one seed about 3-4 years ago and got two sprouts from different segments of the seed, each with their own root system. I just let them be. Their trunks are right next to each other and these seedlings are shaded most of the day with a large Pomegranate tree to one side and a medium sized Lemon Zest mango tree on the other side.

These seedlings are stunted due to being shaded out but one of the seedlings flowered last year and both seedlings flowered and set some small fruit this year. I will remove the fruit because the trees are still too small. Brad and I have been experimenting a lot with seedling trees and we have found it best to maximize their growth during the first critical 3 years before they start to bloom.















Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #418 on: May 27, 2020, 01:42:16 PM »
I didnít take a zoomed out picture because all youíll see is the Pomegranate branches covering the canopy.

Here is an Orange Sherbet seedling that is about 2 years old but in full sun except for some shading from the fence in the early morning and late evening.

Simon

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #419 on: May 27, 2020, 05:20:39 PM »
Simon, I really appreciate you sharing the progress of your seedling trees.  Without examples to compare against, it is difficult to gauge if my seedlings are progressing as expected for our climate.  Its also reassuring to see various seedlings performing well in the first 3-5 years of growth with potential as rootstock.  In addition to gophers, my current challenges include aphids attacking the new leaf growth, wind destroying new leaf growth, and birds landing on new growth destroying the tender leaves with their little bird claws.  Here are some of my various 4-5 year old seedlings:











UplanderCA

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #420 on: June 05, 2020, 07:45:21 PM »
I want to thank everyone, especially Simon, for creating and contributing to this thread.  I wish I would have seen this thread a few years ago before purchasing and planting my mango trees.  I have learned quite a bit on my own and from this thread.  I have a few questions regarding grafting mango scions that have not been discussed in detail or I may have missed.  I understand that the warmer growing season is the best time to select and graft mango scions.
1)  When is the best time of day (morning, noon, evening) for picking/cutting the mango scions, or does it matter?
2)  When is the best time of day (morning, noon, evening) for grafting the scion onto the host, or does it matter?
3)  Are there any issues grafting onto suckers from the root-stock - Manila root-stock (I don't believe there is but just want to confirm)?  I grafted onto a sucker last year and it is doing well.  I was surprised it didn't flower during the winter or early spring...just put out some wonderful growth.  My other grafts from last year put out blooms in winter and early spring.


Thank-you in advance for any helpful responses,
Tony



Grafted Sucker
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 08:29:26 PM by UplanderCA »

simon_grow

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #421 on: June 06, 2020, 01:08:16 PM »
Hey Tony,

This is just my personal preference but hereís what I do and why:

1)I usually donít even think about the time of day I harvest my scions. I try to always prep my scions by removing the leaves about 1-2 weeks before I harvest them. Now that you have me thinking  about it, the late evening is probably the best time of day to harvest the scions. Thinking back to my botany classes, the plants convert sunlight into carbohydrates/starches in the daytime and at night, they send more of that energy back down into the roots than in the daytime. By harvesting around sunset, there is probably the most stored energy in the scions, please correct me if Iím wrong.

2) I always graft in the evening because I donít want the strong sunlight to hit the scion and graft union. When the sunlight hits the scions, it often causes condensation build up under the Buddytape/parafilm. The first two weeks after grafting are critical but the first 1-3 days are super super intensive care unit critical. The union is forming at this point and you want to give the scion and rootstock the best chances of a successful union.

I do this by grafting in the evening in order to give it the maximum number of hours before the sun hits it again and I also cover my scions and entire graft union with whatever I have lying around. I often use white paper bags with holes bunched in it or white paper or leaves taped together. Just about anything that will give it some shade.

3) if you graft onto a vigorous sucker, the shade from the main tree may shade the grafted sucker so you may not get the most vigorous growth. The shape of the tree may also not be ideal because the trees are so close. I have many Polyembryonic seedlings that I just left in place so the trunks are almost touching itís neighbor and the trees will grow away from each other. The tree will look like itís leaning away from the neighbor but itís no big deal for me.

Before I wrap my scions, I clean them with a copper soap and allow them to air dry before wrapping. I have a lot of fungal diseases in my area and I would occasionally get fungus on my wrapper scions before I started this practice.

Simon

Viraldonutz

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #422 on: June 07, 2020, 09:12:32 PM »
Are there any issues I should think about before grafting onto a waist-high seedling in a 5-gallon pot?

Would it be better/worse to keep it under grow lights in my garage for the first week or two after grafting?
--Jake

UplanderCA

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #423 on: June 07, 2020, 09:45:20 PM »
Hi Simon,

Thank-you.  I tend to agree about harvesting scions in mid to late afternoon.  My neighbor and a florist recommends picking roses in the mid/late afternoon as the bloom will last longer due to the flower having the most energy/nutrients at this time - similar analogy to the scions have the most energy at this time.

Tony

Viraldonutz

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Re: Growing Mango trees in Southern California
« Reply #424 on: June 10, 2020, 07:34:25 PM »
Does anyone want to share their fertilizer schedule?  I've never been consistent, and I want to start.
--Jake

 

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