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Author Topic: The "Cerrado Curse"  (Read 9032 times)

fruitlovers

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2015, 01:53:06 AM »
This is the first I've heard about Cerrado fruits, so these might be dumb questions:

- Are there really tasty fruits among the Cerrado fruits you're trying to grow?  Or is it mostly for novelty?


- Would a dry place like California, especially places in California with sandy soils, be good for such plants?


Cerrado = savanna. You might have right sandy soil, but you don't have the right temperatures or rainfall amounts and times. Even though it is dry there for much of the year the cerrado is in the tropics,
http://wwof.panda.org/what_we_do/where_we_work/cerrado/
Oscar

druss

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2015, 07:45:17 AM »
Just wondering if is anyone grafting these species other than the annona mentioned? It seems that the aboveground requirements are easier met than the soil requirements. Couldnt this be overcome by using more tolerant rootstocks. Pouteria torta should be compatible with other pouterias and surely the eugenias would be the same. It seems these things live long enough that various grafting methods could be tried.

luc

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2015, 11:36:01 AM »
Adam -- Interesting!  Which species are supposed to be the tastiest?

A few I've heard are nice:

Mouriri pusa (not sure if cerrado species, but close enough, mine died from curse like symptoms, ph wasn't low enough, and was too wet)

Anacardium humile (like a mini cashew plant, I've managed to keep a few alive!!  Would love to fruit this one!)

Eugenia calycina
Eugenia dysenterica
E klotzschiana
Campomanesia adamantium
Myrciaria nana

And many more

Adam , If the Anacardium humile came from my seeds , you gonna love this one , excellent fruit and a no problem tree , it is also growing a lot bigger than it should ( at my location )

I did it again and killed the E. klotzschiana ....

Myrciaria nana doing very well , still only about 50 cm after , I forgot ....xx years ....

E. calycina is an easy one .
Luc Vleeracker
Puerto Vallarta
Mexico , Pacific coast.
20 degrees north

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2015, 12:11:28 PM »
anacardium humile came from u Luc!

also, i've heard there are several varieties of E. calycina, some being much more tolerant of wet winter conditions.

Now let's find the klotzschiana that can survive! 

check out this link

http://dc.itamaraty.gov.br/imagens-e-textos/revistaing13-mat13.pdf

davidgarcia899

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2015, 04:14:49 PM »
I have an extra E. calycina, I'll trade you one for an A. humile
- David Antonio Garcia

fruitlovers

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2015, 04:18:29 PM »
Just wondering if is anyone grafting these species other than the annona mentioned? It seems that the aboveground requirements are easier met than the soil requirements. Couldnt this be overcome by using more tolerant rootstocks. Pouteria torta should be compatible with other pouterias and surely the eugenias would be the same. It seems these things live long enough that various grafting methods could be tried.

It's a good idea, but to be able to graft them first you have to be able to obtain these very rare seeds and succesfully get them growing. So easier said than done. Also nobody knows in these rare species what is compatible with what.
Oscar

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2015, 05:37:57 PM »
I have an extra E. calycina, I'll trade you one for an A. humile

haha, thanks for the offer!  I've got several E. calycina, I'm super excited about these!!

but I would trade an A. humile for Dorgon's thumbnail if you can manage to get me a clipping.  :P

davidgarcia899

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2015, 11:34:12 PM »
Ahahaha. I'm trying to go to Borneo this year. Maybe I'll swing my Singapore with a nail clipper
- David Antonio Garcia

Miguel.pt

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2015, 06:17:03 PM »
Hello all... just to make this topic more interesting here are my two cents:

These are my 7 YO klotzchianas... one in the ground and another in a pot... the potted one has flowered already but still no fruit set





And here are several 7 YO C. adamantium and C. cambessedeana... all flowered but still no fruit set... these things grow slooooow!



And this one is a 5 YO Eugenia arenosa... even rarer than klotzchiana... also flowered already... anyone else growing this?





And I believe everybody here knows about my E. calycina already...

Curious thing is that all these plants endured several winter floods on my GH... the "Winter-no-water" rule is not valid for the Portuguese Cerrado.

So don't give up yet on those species... I believe it is possible to fruit those outside Brazil.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 06:27:28 PM by Miguel.pt »

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2015, 09:42:14 PM »
Miguel

thanks for sharing your blessings with us...

I think you have beat the odds because your soil biology (pH especially) and water quality are very good for the Brazilian species...you must have a pH of 6.5 or lower...I would be totally astounded if you are using city water, or fluoridated/chlorinated water.

and I notice your trees look quite wet, but still very happy...this gives me courage to keep trying some of these species.

I think I will have much better luck with my new location, the water here has a lower pH than the last location.

Miguel.pt

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 04:45:34 PM »
Yes Adam... I also think that the nice acid alluvial soil I have here is helping me a lot... and my water is also slightly acid.

I forgot to add that I also have some small cagaitas and they seems very happy too...
I'm missing the A. humile and the M. nana to complete my Cerrado collection... can anyone help?

Luc:
Unfortunately the A. humile you posted me from Belgium didn't survive...
Can you get me one fresh seed this year?... thank you.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 04:47:56 PM by Miguel.pt »

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2015, 04:12:51 PM »
I have managed to break the curse for 2 winters with Eugenia dysenterica, and now I'm on the second winter for Eugenia klotzschiana

But they sure grow slow...I need to feed them

JFranco

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2015, 05:32:48 AM »
Hi!
 
I have several eugenia calycina and eugenia pitanga, generous gift from Miguel! I don't think I have other cerrado species.


Joo Franco



« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 02:33:36 PM by JFranco »

Cassio

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2015, 11:15:14 AM »
Well, Im living in So Paulo city, and I have these ones:
In the soil:
01 Eugenia observa - its alive and already fruited this year. Bought the small 20 cm seedling in 2014
01 E klotzschiana - Tried to keep the 30 cm tall seedlings alive 05 times since 2011. All seedlings are dead.
01 Campomanesia pubescens - Bought the small seedling in 2014. Was hard to keep her alive in the winter
01 Campomanesia pubescens - Bought the 30 cm tall seedling this year. New leafs are coming after the old ones dropped completely.
01 Anacardium Humile - growing it since 2014, from seed. Its alive but not growing.
01 E Arenosa - bought the small seedling in 2013. Four new leafs in 2014, and four new leafs in 2015. It has a damned slow growing rate!!
01 pitanga do cerrado - bought in 2014, fruited this year

In pots:
01 Eugenia dysenterica - fruited in 2014 (when in 50 cm tall), but not in 2015. Bought the small seedling in 2014
01 Myrciaria nana - second try. Small seedling is a gift from Lacerda (e-jardim) in 2014. Its alive and well, but not growing.
01 E sp (Eugenia without name) - bought a seedling this year. Its growing easy and quick.
02 Anacardium Humile - Third try. This time Im cultivating it since 2014, from seed. One seedling begun to grow "04 sisters" from the basis of the seedling. The other seedling has new leafs for now.
01 pitaya do cerrado - planted from cutting in 2013. A flower is coming!!
03 pitanga do cerrado - bought in 2013. One of them already fruited 02 times (2014 and 2015)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 09:21:15 AM by Cassio »

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2017, 10:42:49 AM »
"Aluminium is an important factor in cerrado soils and frequently occurs at levels toxic to cultivated plants."

could adding aluminum sulfate to your soil help break the cerrado curse?

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2845050?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Tropicdude

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2017, 11:13:33 AM »
I would not doubt that there is some fungi or bacteria that have developed a symbiotic relationship with the plants in the roots.

Imagine an Alien taking a sample of our DNA, and cloning a human on some distant planet,  they could replicate the climate, atmosphere,  but without our bacteria, we would quickly die.  we have more bacteria cells than their are humans on the planet.

Same goes with plants,  some plants must be inoculated with their corresponding bacteria or fungi for them to thrive.     lets just say I believe in science and not magic.   if these plants have a problem growing where all climate conditions have been met,  then it has to be something other than that.
William
" The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago.....The second best time, is now ! "

JonathonForester

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2017, 12:39:48 PM »
So what can you wise Cerrado Masochists tell me about E. calycina in florida? I got one from Adam this last sunday. A seedling from Miguel's 'Nelita' I believe. I'd like to grow her to fruition. Should I be restricting the amount of rain it gets? It's likely going to stay potted for a few years. I definitely do not want to kill it. Advice?  Warnings? Enigmatic fortunes?

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2017, 12:59:47 PM »
Adam, forgot to tell you, the last of the Marolo you gave me bit the big one the other day.

I still a Pouteria torta though, a little yellow, but growing

I didn't realize A. crassiflora was a Cerrado species as well. That makes me sad. I'll probably submit myself to the curse trying to grow one of those. Any luck with the aluminum additions on any other species?

Cassio

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2017, 09:19:29 AM »
Updating the information about my seedlings:

In the soil:
01 Eugenia observa - Bought the small 20 cm seedling in 2014. fruits many times a year, but dont have to much pulp. Easy to grow.
01 E klotzschiana - A new seedling bought in 2016 is alive and well, but grows slooowllyyy....
01 Campomanesia pubescens - Bought the small seedling in 2014. Died in 2016.
01 Campomanesia pubescens - Bought the 30 cm tall seedling in 2015. Alive, but not so healthy.
01 Anacardium Humile - All the seedlings from 2014 are dead.
01 E Arenosa - bought the small seedling in 2013. Alive. It has a damned slow growing rate!!
01 pitanga do cerrado - bought in 2014. The easiest to grow of them all. Already Fruited many times.

In pots:
01 Eugenia dysenterica - bought in 2014, fruited in the same year (when in 50 cm tall), but not in 2015, nor in 2016. Alive, but not growing.
01 Myrciaria nana - Small seedling was a gift from Lacerda (e-jardim) in 2014. Its alive and well, flowered in 2016.
01 E sp (Eugenia without name) - bought a seedling in 2015. Its growing easy and quick, gave me the first fruit in 2016.
02 Anacardium Humile - growing from seed since 2014. All died last year.
01 pitaya do cerrado - planted from cutting in 2013. Still alive.
03 pitanga do cerrado - bought in 2013. Now in the soil. Alive and well.

News:
in pots
05 Anacardium Humile - from seed (january 2016). 01 Still alive.
06 Eugenia calycina "nelita"- from Miguel, 2015. One died, 03 doing well. Other two still uncertain...
01 Eugenia calycina (over 60 cm tall) - bought in 2016. Alive and well.
05 Hancornia speciosa - from seed, planted this year. 04 still alive.
A lot of other fruits from cerrado. Still waiting for the seeds to germinate. :)

in the soil
02 "saborosa" (another var of pitaya do cerrado) - bought last year. Growing fast.
01 Annona Cornifolia - bought in 2016. Grows fast and well (1m tall for now). Already flowered two times, but no fruits yet.

pineislander

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Re: The "Cerrado Curse"
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2017, 08:05:10 PM »
"Aluminium is an important factor in cerrado soils and frequently occurs at levels toxic to cultivated plants."

could adding aluminum sulfate to your soil help break the cerrado curse?

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2845050?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

The Cerrado is a very interesting region with respect to agriculture. Many people don't realize the immensity of land, easily comparable to the US in terms of size. That land is characterized by very acidic soils called Oxisols, highly weathered clays, and their reasonably high aluminum content coupled with acidity makes the aluminum mobile enough to cause the toxicity. This document discusses the typical soils in the Cerrado, and then explains how those conditions have been modified to grow annual commodity crops, beans, corn, etc.
http://www.ipni.net/publication/bci.nsf/0/BD82D5423F10863F85257BBA0070C42D/$FILE/Better%20Crops%20International%201996-2%20p09.pdf

For Cerrado fruits, I'd suppose they aren't necessarily fond of aluminum, even if they tolerate it, maybe someone else would know. One thing almost certain is that they enjoy acidity, so whatever soil amendments are used for acid-loving crops like blueberries might help.

 

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