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Author Topic: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest  (Read 19920 times)

ramv

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #125 on: March 25, 2019, 04:52:07 PM »
Excellent explanation and a great post!

A lot of the weather in the PNW depends on which way the wind is blowing.

Most commonly the wind comes from the West.
This is because of the Westerlies, due to the Coriolis effect diverting North moving winds towards the West. Since Earth is spinning towards the East and since the regions closer towards the poles are moving at a slower speed than the equator, that means winds moving from closer near the equator towards further towards the poles will be deflected apparently geographically East. This has everything to do with the curvature of the Earth, since the distance between longitude is less as one moves higher in latitude.
When the wind is blowing from the West it brings moist cool air from over the ocean. This often means overcast skies.
 In the Summer it helps bring cool air. (And this cooling effect does not change between day and night)
In the Winter this cool air happens to still be warmer relative to what the temperatures would otherwise be, so it helps prevent the temperatures from going below freezing. All the moisture brought in by the air originating from the ocean also condenses into rain, mostly drizzle, helping to release more heat (since water vapor releases heat as it condenses into liquid). The overcast skies from all the cloud cover reflects back thermal radiation from the ground, acting as a sort of thermal blanket at night. All these effects help prevent the temperatures in Winter from dropping too low.

If the winds are blowing in from the Northeast during Winter, it can get very cold and there can be snow.

If the winds are blowing from the East during the Summer, it can get very hot, and there will be clear skies regardless of the season.



This is why most of the trees in this area are evergreen. Cool air coming in from the ocean means most of the rain is going to come when the temperature on land is colder than the cool air in the ocean, so that mostly means the Winter half of the year. During the Summer the needle-like leaves allow the cooler air to pass over them so they do not heat up too much in the sun which would cause excessive water losses to evaporation. Since the air is cooler and moving into a warmer area, it will not release any rain.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2019, 04:34:42 PM »
The bigger Keraji seedling is not doing so well. Barely alive, I still see a streak of green on the trunk but I don't think it's going to make it.


The smaller Keraji seedling still has a green lower stem and one very small live green leaf left:


I guess these Keraji would have done much better on trifoliate rootstock. Keep in mind they were both pretty small seedlings, but they were covered with plastic containers to provide just a little bit of insulation (and they are still being covered up to now).
And remember, a gallon container of warm water was set right next to them on the coldest night, just 3 and a half hours before the temperature was supposed to dip the lowest, and they were covered with a paper bag on top of that.

If the experiment is repeated, bigger plants should be used, not just small seedlings, and it should be tried on trifoliate rootstock.

I had a theory, tested it, and it turned out that theory doesn't seem to be true. Seedlings on their own roots don't seem to be able to survive the Winter here.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #127 on: March 28, 2019, 02:47:32 PM »
Citrumelo


Yuzu


SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #128 on: March 28, 2019, 04:23:02 PM »
Bloomsweet inside protective cover:

Leaves are still green though a bit yellow in hue.

Florian

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #129 on: March 29, 2019, 02:59:30 AM »
How cold do you reckon it was inside the Bloomsweet enclosure? I have a seed grown plant which is flowering for the first time.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #130 on: March 29, 2019, 06:45:22 AM »
How cold do you reckon it was inside the Bloomsweet enclosure? I have a seed grown plant which is flowering for the first time.

I would say the climate here is pretty similar to where you are. From my experience so far I would say that, even with a cover, and even close to the South-facing side of the house, Bloomsweet is borderline in this climate. It might survive or might not. It's pretty "iffy". The Bloomsweet is still alive, but it still remains to be seen if it can put on enough growth so it does not decline. But it was also a colder Winter than usual here, that's something else to consider.
You may not want to risk your seed grown plant.

But this may be encouraging. Ilya posted a picture of his Bloomsweet (just outside of Paris) in the thread "Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos" on page 2.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18992.25

So apparently it is possible for it to survive in Europe.

lebmung

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #131 on: March 29, 2019, 06:57:52 AM »
Bloomsweet inside protective cover:
Leaves are still green though a bit yellow in hue.

That polyfilm you have it keeps moisture inside so when it's cold it get even colder during the night then during the day sun heats up the moisture.
Microporous fleece I think it's better, it allows the plant to evaporate the excess of water and keep it drier inside.

Ilya11

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #132 on: March 29, 2019, 10:38:27 AM »

But this may be encouraging. Ilya posted a picture of his Bloomsweet (just outside of Paris) in the thread "Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos" on page 2.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18992.25

So apparently it is possible for it to survive in Europe.


This plant is now in zone 9 climate in the South of France:

Delvy83,
Before it wasplanted  for 5 years in my garden near Paris; i survived one winter with minus 12C (10.4-F) and two winters with minimum of minus 9C (15.8-F). Each time lost some wood but gave vigorous growth in the following summer.
Now it is in   9b zone garden, where of course it has no problems with hardiness
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #133 on: March 29, 2019, 01:37:47 PM »
This plant is now in zone 9 climate in the South of France:

Delvy83,
Before it wasplanted  for 5 years in my garden near Paris; i survived one winter with minus 12C (10.4-F) and two winters with minimum of minus 9C (15.8-F). Each time lost some wood but gave vigorous growth in the following summer.
Now it is in   9b zone garden, where of course it has no problems with hardiness
My mistake, Ilya. It seems that you, like me, have two locations, with different climate zones, which can be a bit confusing sometimes for other people.

I always try to write the location or climate zone at the bottom of pictures so people will know. (Although in this specific thread, and talking about cold hardy citrus in general, I am only talking about the Pacific Northwest)

Can I ask you, do you think your Bloomsweet would still be alive and growing today if you had left it in the ground at the 8a climate zone location?

Ilya11

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #134 on: March 29, 2019, 02:54:27 PM »
This plant was immature seedling grafted on poncirus very close to the ground line. Probably it would  never  flower, since every second winter most of it was destroyed. When it started to flower ( in a South) its height was around three meters.
I recently regrafted  its mature wood to poncirus , it survived without any damage two years with -9C nights but with two layers fleece cover .
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 04:51:56 AM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #135 on: March 29, 2019, 05:03:28 PM »
This plant was immature seedling grafted on poncirus very close to the ground line. Probably it would  never  flower, since every second winter most of it was destroyed. When it started to flower ( in a South) its height was around three meters.
I recently grafted  its mature wood to poncirus and kept it , it survived without any damage two years with -9C nights but with two layers fleece cover .
So if I can translate what you stated for other people, Bloomsweet was able to survive for you in zone 8a Northern France down to 16 degrees F as long as it was covered and well insulated.

This fits very well with the research I have done about this. Bloomsweet is supposedly well hardy down to 18 degrees F, and a covering/insulation is able to raise the temperature by 2 or 3 degrees (F) at night.
So your covered Bloomsweet probably only experienced down to 18 degrees, exactly what it can handle.

Florian

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #136 on: March 30, 2019, 04:09:02 AM »
How cold do you reckon it was inside the Bloomsweet enclosure? I have a seed grown plant which is flowering for the first time.

I would say the climate here is pretty similar to where you are. From my experience so far I would say that, even with a cover, and even close to the South-facing side of the house, Bloomsweet is borderline in this climate. It might survive or might not. It's pretty "iffy". The Bloomsweet is still alive, but it still remains to be seen if it can put on enough growth so it does not decline. But it was also a colder Winter than usual here, that's something else to consider.
You may not want to risk your seed grown plant.

But this may be encouraging. Ilya posted a picture of his Bloomsweet (just outside of Paris) in the thread "Cold Hardry Grapefuit/Pommelos" on page 2.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=18992.25

So apparently it is possible for it to survive in Europe.


I made a mistake, it is not my Bloomsweet that is flowering but my Sweetie, sorry ;D. I confused the two in my head.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #137 on: March 30, 2019, 11:58:46 AM »
Well, of course another reason that citrus has not generally been grown further North on the West Coast is because San Diego (furthest city South on the West Coast) is already on the same latitude as Charleston, South Carolina.
Citrus probably does not grow as fast in the cooler temperatures on the West Coast compared to the warmer humidity in the Southeast.
Florida and the Southeast are subtropical, the California coast is more Mediterranean.

If we exclude the Northern California coast, I believe the Mediterranean zone could be said to extend all the way North to Olympia, WA.
Olympia is the farthest city North that still feels like a Meditterranean climate in Summer and Fall.
Of course, Medditterranean climates do not have heavy snow fall, but that only happens in occasional years, and admittingly the Winter temperatures are a little bit colder than a typical Meditterranean climate, and the Spring is wetter and cooler, more like England.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #138 on: March 30, 2019, 03:49:52 PM »
Yuzu seedling



No longer has any leaves but the bottom stem is still green.

actually I think I see one tiny leaf that's still green caught between the stems, but it just looks so-so.

It's a very small seedling. So basically the top stems died back but the very bottom trunk (if you can call it that) is still green.

April 1



jim VH

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #139 on: March 30, 2019, 03:51:08 PM »
Socal, you're comments on the cool Mediterranean climate are generally spot on, though you could argue that Bremerton and maybe Sequim- in the rain shadow of the Olympics- may also qualify, even though they are further north than Olympia.  Certainly, my grandparents had no problems growing figs at the Byrmryna  Fig orchard on Vashon island- located halfway between Seattle and Tacoma- during the 1930's, 40's and 50's, before the arrival of Starlings on the west coast wiped it out.

Your comments on coolness effecting development is also spot on.  In my experience with 24 different types of citrus in Southwest Washington-- just across the Columbia River from Portland-- only lemons, limes and the earliest ripening Satsumas produce quality fruit before the weather turns cold in late October.  Yuzus, Sudachis and Kabosus  fully ripen in early November, just before the onset of the first hard freezes, although Sudachis actually have their best flavor picked green and used as limes just before they start to color, usually in late September-early October.  Meyer's lemons ripen a couple-three weeks later, and need protection.   Thomasville Citrangequats don't really ripen fully at all, though they do color up a bit, but again- like Sudachis- can be picked green and used as limes.

Of the Satsumas I've tried, only Early St Anne, LA early, Miho and Xie Shan have produced what I consider commercial or  'better than commercial' quality fruit, though the Xie Shan was a bit acid on a PT rootstock.  Regrafting it to a Flying Dragon seems to have enhanced its sweetness, however.  The standards like Owari or Brown's Select tended to be small sourish and mealy.  I'm currently trying  Okitsu and China S-6, but don't have enough info to make a judgment.  Seto and Miyagawa should also do well.

Oranges don't do well, although surprisingly-or maybe not-, Kiyomi Tangor almost makes the cut.

Because the Puget Sound area has about 30% fewer growing degree days than SW Washington and the Williamette Valley, ripening in the Olympia area may not be quite so robust, except perhaps in sheltered microclimate, without artificial enhancement. 

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #140 on: March 30, 2019, 06:49:10 PM »
Socal, you're comments on the cool Mediterranean climate are generally spot on, though you could argue that Bremerton and maybe Sequim- in the rain shadow of the Olympics- may also qualify, even though they are further north than Olympia.
You certainly could argue that but I would disagree (although it may just be my own bias). Yes, it is true they can be sunny and without precipitation during that season, but they are both cooler areas and do not get quite as hot. It's not the same sort of dry and parched that you get when things are hot, there is still some moisture in the soil and humid, relatively cool, air that does not suck out too much moisture or have too much of a drying effect.

I just don't envission those two to be really Meditterranean climates (although lavender does grow great there).

I suppose it's somewhat of a spectrum. I just envission Olympia being a little closer to a true Meditteranean climate than further North, even though Olympia isn't exactly a true Meditteranean climate.

Certainly, my grandparents had no problems growing figs at the Byrmryna  Fig orchard on Vashon island- located halfway between Seattle and Tacoma- during the 1930's, 40's and 50's,
I see some big fig trees in people's yards here, and the fig fruits can get very big. One of the fruits I bit into and it had a hollow space inside big enough to fit a lychee fruit inside there (between the size of a Walnut and a cherry).

Because the Puget Sound area has about 30% fewer growing degree days than SW Washington and the Williamette Valley, ripening in the Olympia area may not be quite so robust, except perhaps in sheltered microclimate, without artificial enhancement.
The Tri-Cities area may be a good region to try growing hardy citrus in.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 07:10:00 PM by SoCal2warm »

Ilya11

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #141 on: March 30, 2019, 07:07:49 PM »
Oranges don't do well, although surprisingly-or maybe not-, Kiyomi Tangor almost makes the cut.
I always thought that Kiyomi is quite late and have not tried it.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

jim VH

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #142 on: March 31, 2019, 03:40:59 PM »
Ilya11, you're quite right it is late.  It doesn't really ripen, but it does turn a sort of orangish green in January or so in the normally unheated and open enclosure it was in. (The enclosure is closed and heated during killing cold) As such, it is rather sourish, about on par to that of a grapefruit- just barely sweet enough to eat with some pucker factor.  Importantly,  the flavor is quite good- much better than a grapefruit and without the bitter- and the fruit are relatively large, small orange in size., which is why I said it 'almost' makes the cut.  Eatable, but not choice.

I bought it on an impulse at the Portland Nursery, partly because it was marked down and partly because it had a couple fruit on it.  The ripe fruit were excellent- as they should be at $5 per fruit.

Eventually I sacrificed it to the Frost Gods in order to make room for a couple more early ripening Satsumas.  It appears to be modestly hardy- low-mid twenties Fahrenheit- though I couldn't give you an exact number.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #143 on: March 31, 2019, 05:44:12 PM »
Here are two Yuzu plants in containers that survived through the Winter in a greenhouse. The greenhouse had a lot of cracks and openings in the roof, and just a few days after the coldest part of Winter the roof collapsed under the weight of snow so there was practically no roof covering. I would consider these two plants inside practically exposed.

As you can see, one still has plenty of green leaves (slightly yellow in hue), while the other is practically defoliated but still obviously alive. I suspect this shows what a difference rootstock can make, I suspect the defoliated one is on a less hardy rootstock than the other. (They didn't come from the same nursery, and the nursery that the defoliated one came from is not in a cold climate so they probably had no reason to put it on trifoliate rootstock).

I find it remarkable that this Yuzu could survive in a container, through the Winter, and still come out looking good. It's just a standard 5 gallon container.


Ilya11

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #144 on: April 01, 2019, 08:09:29 AM »
Thank you Jim_VH, I recently grafted Kiyomi, but it has not flowered yet.
Since it has Miyagawa blood, it is probably a good zygotic candidate for cold hardy breeding.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #145 on: April 01, 2019, 09:17:38 PM »
Rare lemon harvest in Vancouver

Greg Neal, mechanic by profession, fruit-grower by hobby, is getting set to harvest 70 lemons from his yard in Lynn Valley.
"A few people come by to see it and most people are quite surprised," said Neal.
He planted a Meyer lemon tree about 10 years ago in his front yard in "a bit of a micro climate" that faces south/southeast and takes advantage of heat that comes off the house, and the tree has grown to three metres by three metres.

"Anyone with a tree in a south-facing or west-facing yard with a wall and an overhang to give it a little extra heat can grow citrus fruit," Duncan said.
Both he and Neal protect their trees from the winter cold and rain by covering them with a special breathable tarp that lets sun in. They add a little warmth with a string of old-fashioned Christmas lights under the tarp.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/rare-lemon-harvest-in-vancouver

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2019, 06:22:57 PM »


C. ichangensis

Portland, OR

It's been pruned, it was much bushier the last time I saw it.

leaves have a nice fragrance in the moist air, reminiscent of Yuzu, but more lemony, light, and without the spicy smell of petitgrain.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #147 on: April 04, 2019, 03:30:17 PM »
Some updates

Yuzu


Bloomsweet (still inside cover)


Dunstan citrumelo


Satsuma mandarin (was under a cover during the Winter)


Ten Degree Tangerine


I believe the lowest temperature this was exposed to was 14 F.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2019, 06:36:26 PM »
Bloomsweet, with the cover just removed today:



We had a brief period of light hail (almost like half rain, half hail) this morning but it wasn't that cold, the temperatures were still well above freezing.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #149 on: April 17, 2019, 05:43:46 PM »
The citrumelo is beginning to put on new growth (light green leaf buds above leaves)


The Satsuma and Bloomsweet (even though they were covered) appear to have suffered more damage than I thought, which didn't become fully evident until things recently began warming up. I'm not sure if the Bloomsweet is going to survive. Leaves are still yellow-green and look alive but sickly, but the trunk looks all grey and almost dead.

 

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