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Author Topic: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest  (Read 7595 times)

mrtexas

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2017, 11:39:15 AM »
On average you can grow a mango tree outside in Seattle. However it is not the averages that kill a citrus or mango tree it is the extremes and the duration of freezing weather that kill semi-tropical trees. Mangos are killed by a freeze of any duration. 0F, 6F, and 11F kill citrus trees after an hour or two. Seattle has very little citrus friendly weather with cool, rainy and cloudy the most frequent occurences. Where I live in Houston has similar weather to Bradenton,FL where they grow mangoes outside unprotected. However the yearly hard freezes prevent growing mangoes in the ground unprotected.

seattle by philip sauber, on Flickr
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 10:13:42 PM by mrtexas »

Citradia

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2017, 09:19:13 PM »
And, the reality is that if you live somewhere where it ever gets down to 5 degrees, you are going to have nights and days when it never gets above freezing, sometimes not getting above freezing for several days. If the temps don't rise above freezing when the sun comes up the morning after the cold snap, your citrus ( other than trifoliata) is in trouble.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2017, 04:38:10 PM »



SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2017, 11:28:35 PM »

Here's three of a really rare variety.
It's either ([trifoliate x Temple orange] x C. ichangensis) x Minneola Tangelo, or it's Minneola x C. ichangensis x Temple orange. There may have been a little mix up so its exact origin is in doubt.

I think this is only hardy to zone 8 but the fruit quality is supposed to be pretty good.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 11:30:51 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2017, 05:48:14 PM »
At the very end of October the temperature early morning outside was 44, 55 inside the greenhouse.
This morning, November 3, there was a surprise: the ground was covered in snow. It's very unusual for snow to fall this early in the year, usually any snowfall is preceded by two months of rain.

Here's a yuzu in the early fallen snow



SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2018, 05:55:54 PM »
Very unusual weather this year. Although there was snow in early November (very unusual), what's even more unusual is that so far, since then, there has not been a freeze, as far as I'm aware. Daytime temperatures have been hovering at about 46 F almost every day, maybe 41 in the night (with just a few of the coldest nights down to 36 at the lowest).
 There was a rose on my bush blooming on New Years Day with several more buds that looked about to bloom, and I also just yesterday saw several blooms on a huge camellia bush. With temperatures like this a normal citrus tree could probably be left outside unprotected (although its leaves would have gotten a little frost bitten from the freak freeze in early November). It seems while the rest of the country has been experiencing deep freezes, the West coast has been unusually mild this year.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 06:00:30 PM by SoCal2warm »

Citradia

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2018, 09:43:39 AM »
The weather on this continent is really unpredictable. We were supposed to have a warm dry winter, but it's been the exact opposite.

Tom

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 12:09:14 PM »
The general explanation has been that the jet stream has been moving around in unusual patterns this year. Hard to believe but a dip in the artic jet stream caused central AL to be colder than parts of Canada at the same time. Yes it has been rough and the flu seems worse too. Tom

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2018, 12:32:43 AM »
Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9hpySojNM

This guy has Miyagawa Satsuma fruiting on Flying Dragon trifoliate rootstock in Virginia Beach, right on the edge of the water. He's got a bunch of other rare cold hardy varieties grafted into the tree as well, Thomasville citrangequat, Ventura lemandarin, Glen citrangedin, Ichang lemon, Dimicelli, Shikuwasa, etc.
He's had the tree for a few years.
Virginia Beach is in climate zone 8a.

The video was taken December 10 and the leaves were all green. By February the leaves all turned brown and shriveled up (as seen in another video). The East Coast got pummeled by a pretty freezing winter this year. The only scion that didn't lose its leaves was a Swingle citrumelo. The tree suffered a lot of damage but he says it looks like it will come back.

few quick notes:
Ventura lemandarin is believed to be a cross between taiwanica lemon x either Satsuma or keraji mandarin; Glen citrangedin is apparently a cross between Willits citrange x calamondin; Dimicelli is a cross between Clementine x either trifoliate or CiTemple edible citrange


I just checked the weather report and the temperatures in Virginia Beach this week are looking pretty similar to here (March 6-13). Well actually the average in Virginia Beach is a little warmer but the colder days are still the same.

We did end up getting freezing temperatures and some snow in the second half of February, but it only lasted a few days. Again, this Winter has been very unusual.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:47:08 AM by SoCal2warm »

Millet

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2018, 01:16:52 PM »
The Ventura lemandarin  that was seen in the above U-Tube was propagated by a friend of mine.  He is actually a member on this forum under the name of Eyeckr.  If you see him on, you can ask him any questions.  He know a lot about cold hardy citrus.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2018, 07:02:21 PM »
The temperature inside that little outdoor clear plastic enclosure I showed you earlier was 90 degrees F.
March 20, 3:40 in the afternoon, full sun, thermometer reading taken on the ground laying up against the small tree. The temperature right outside, in full sun, set on the ground, read 71 degrees. I was surprised it got that warm considering the weather service says the temperature is only supposed to be 53 degrees right now. Maybe it's because it's in a protected space, against a South-facing wall in full sun. And the dark colored soil also probably absorbs light more strongly than other surfaces, helping things remain warm.

A temperature differential of 21 degrees between the inside and the outside. Obviously in full sun the greenhouse effect is playing a very big role here.
Even for something that's basically as thin as vinyl shower curtain.

Just took a temperature reading in the night, 11:20 pm, inside the enclosure it's 51 degrees, that's about 3 degrees warmer than outside. (March 21)

Another temperature reading, today it's cloudy cold and drizzling rain. 50 degrees inside the enclosure, 47 degrees right outside. (in the middle of the day around noon, March 22)
It appears when it's grey and overcast the greenhouse effect and temperature differential is not as strong. The weather service says it's supposed to be 42 degrees right now.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 03:38:08 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2018, 08:00:08 PM »
found this post on permies.com forum:

dawn shears
Location: Gold Beach, Oregon (south coast, zone 9b)

"I was super tickled to find meyer lemon trees growing well, outside in my new community on the south Oregon coast.  Come to find out lots grows here that does not even grow well in many places in northern California...

They call it the "banana belt" of Oregon and it's something like climate zone 9b in a little sliver on the south coast..."

https://permies.com/t/69696/Lemon-trees-Montana-anyplace-cold

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2018, 05:10:22 PM »
One of the interesting things I just learned, even though it doesn't get very freezing here in the Winter, and there are several subtropicals that are marginally able to survive here, the number of chill hours (between 32F and 45F) are around 3500 annually! (Yes, that's thousand) I had to look that up and double check it because I couldn't believe it. More than plenty enough chill hours for any temperate deciduous fruit tree you can think of. It's because of the extended season of cool temperatures and things not starting to warm up until later in the year. Right now, as of the beginning of April, we have New Zealand like weather. Yes, so imagine that. We have English Winters, a New Zealand Spring, Southern California Summers (maybe on the latitude of San Luis Obispo, sort of, it's fairly humid but with no precipitation, like the Southern California coast, but the hotter temperatures approach somewhere partially just a little further inland, but with cooler nighttime temperatures). Not really sure what you'd compare the Fall too. Maybe it starts off like the Northern part of California but farther inland where it's drier, and then suddenly transitions into buckets of rain pouring down, unlike any other region on earth.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2018, 05:14:49 PM »
Just thought I would post this here from one of our other members in this forum:

jim VH
Vancouver,Wa. zone 8b
"Yes, My Sudachi and Yuzu easily survived 8F (-13.3C) in January 2017 in Vancouver Wa., just across the Columbia river from Portland Or., with only minor small twig damage and about 20% defoliation on each.  The Sudachi appeared to have a higher percentage of small twig damage than the Yuzu.  On the other hand, the Yuzu is a much larger tree, and size does matter."

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2018, 06:51:26 PM »
Another interesting post from the permies.com forum:

Matt Hedlund
February 2018
"I too live in Seattle and have a cold hardy citrus collection of my own. In the ground i have:

Indio Mandarinquat
Owari Satsuma
Kuno Wase Satsuma
Nagami Kumquat
Fukushu Kumquat
Marumi Kumquat
Calamondin
Chinotto Sour Orange
Bloomsweet Grapefruit (kinkoji)
Yuzu
& Poncirus trifoliata

To date, these have all seen 18 degrees unprotected with no damage across the last 3 winters."

https://permies.com/t/74712/Hybridizing-cold-hardy-citrus-grow


I think we should be taking this with a grain of salt though because being in an urban city can really insulate from the surrounding regional climate. Seattle near the water is in the higher part of zone 8b, perhaps almost bordering on 9a if you were only going by absolute low temperatures. All those paved surfaces and buildings dumping out heat into their surroundings make the localized climate just a little bit warmer during Winter. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if a severe Winter comes along in the next few years and freezes back half of everything he has.

Just in case anyone is thinking about trying this, the order of cold hardiness is:
calamondin < mandarinquat < kumquat

I don't really know whether calamondin or satsuma has more cold hardiness, I've read numerous conflicting reports. I'd have to guess they are probably near the same level.
If I had to make an educated guess, the varieties out of that list most likely to die would be Chinotto, with the Calamondin dying down to its roots before sending up new growth, while I can see the Satsuma and Bloomsweet struggling and not doing the best most years. (but this is just my intuition and I don't have any solid evidence to present to you right now to back it up)


This was posted by someone else in the same thread:

Frank Cordeiro
"My Yuzu limes have survived three days of 10 degree weather with just some minor stem damage.  It is producing lots of good fruit with no freeze damage the last two years.
I use my trifoliate orange to make a household cleaning solution by soaking cut up and squeezed oranges in white vinegar.
I am in Southern Oregon.  Most years we hit 10 degrees in winter but sometimes a bit lower... "
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 08:17:52 PM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2018, 08:39:18 PM »
The Satsuma is beginning to put on new growth.


Two weeks ago I had to open up the enclosure, it was getting up to 92 degrees (F) in there when the sun came out.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2018, 04:52:31 PM »
Satsuma is blooming



SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2018, 03:11:15 PM »
Here's a citrus labled "citrumelo" at Jungle Fever Exotics.



It has a few blossoms on it.

They also have a small Yuzu in a container.
He doesn't have a greenhouse, he keeps all the plants outside.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 09:37:16 AM »
There's also an Ichang papeda growing in the Lan Su Chinese garden in Portland. It's in the ground planted up against a wall with good sun exposure. I saw a few small undeveloped fruits on it. The leaves smell slightly lemony but very mild, they don't smell like the leaves of Yuzu or Flying Dragon. It's definitely an Ichang papeda, I can tell by the leaves, perfectly symetrical sized leaf petioles and their plant guide also lists it as Citrus ichangensis.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Citrus in the Pacific Northwest
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2018, 08:27:13 PM »
keraji seedling

I planted it out in the ground mid-March and it lost all its leaves and partially died back just a little bit because of the cold temperatures, or sustained cool temperatures (not freezing though). However, it looks like it is now starting to come back, regrowing tiny little leaflets. I've been keeping it well watered.

Amazing, such a tiny seedling citrus would never have been able to survive out in the open ground in Southern California, the temperatures would be too hot and it would get dried out. So there is some irony to trying to grow in a cooler climate. It's very lush and green here and plants tend to grow very fast during the growing season (that is when the temperatures aren't too cool).

 

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