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Author Topic: Whats a good Citrus rootstock  (Read 5928 times)

davidgarcia899

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Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« on: September 02, 2012, 09:37:24 AM »
I have heard that many of the Citrus sold in Miami are on rootstocks not well adapted to our rocky, alkaline soil. I think this true because some of my Citrus are much more needy than others. My Satsuma and Persian lime require half the fertilization that my Meyer Lemon requires. I want to keep expanding my Citrus collection by grafting new varieties on my own rootstock.

So what is the best rootstock for alkaline rocky soil? Or should I just wander Everglades National Park until I find a healthy wild tree.
- David Antonio Garcia

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 09:53:08 AM »
I have heard that many of the Citrus sold in Miami are on rootstocks not well adapted to our rocky, alkaline soil. I think this true because some of my Citrus are much more needy than others. My Satsuma and Persian lime require half the fertilization that my Meyer Lemon requires. I want to keep expanding my Citrus collection by grafting new varieties on my own rootstock.

So what is the best rootstock for alkaline rocky soil? Or should I just wander Everglades National Park until I find a healthy wild tree.

Wild citrus in the Everglades?  I have never heard of any.  Citrus is an exotic here in Florida.  My understanding is that sour orange provides a decent rootstock for most citrus here.  For a while, when the various viruses were showing their ugly faces, there was talk of using trifoliata and even some tangerines.  This is a question that is probably better left for the experts on a more citrus intensive forum I think.  I have been out of the citrus loop for a decade or more. Hopefully, someone with more up to date knowledge will be able to help you.

Harry
Harry
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USA

davidgarcia899

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 10:36:13 AM »
Wild citrus in the Everglades?
Harry

Supposedly trees are scattered around the hammocks of the Everglades which depending on the story were either left by Spanish explorers or Seminoles during the Seminole wars.
- David Antonio Garcia

murahilin

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 11:29:23 AM »
I think it may be illegal for you to propagate your own citrus in Florida without following the rules outlined here: https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?title=CITRUS%20NURSERY%20STOCK%20CERTIFICATION%20%20PROGRAM&ID=5B-62.011

"5B-62.011 Requirements for Citrus Propagation.
Commercial and dooryard citrus nursery stock shall be propagated according to the following provisions unless exempted in Rule 5B-62.016, F.A.C.
(1) Propagative material including budwood, air-layers, cuttings and all topworking material shall be from source trees produced or grown in accordance with Rule 5B-62.012, F.A.C., and for which a Certificate of Source Tree Registration (DACS-08072) has been issued as specified in Rule 5B-62.017, F.A.C.
(2) Budwood shall be taken under the direct supervision of a witness authorized by the Department. Budwood from each source tree shall be wrapped separately. Each bundle shall be labeled showing variety, the tree identification number, and the number of buds counted or estimated.
(3) All propagative material data including topworking shall be recorded on a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172) and submitted to the Bureau of Citrus Budwood Registration at the time of collection. Persons authorized to fill out a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172), shall sign a Certification To Witness Registered Budwood form, DACS-08111.
(4) Propagations from each source tree shall be maintained in nursery rows or on greenhouse benches so that each group can be traced back to an individual source tree. Nurserymen shall use permanent tags to label each separate group of propagations with the source tree registration number.
(5) All citrus nursery stock and propagative plant parts shall remain within the approved structure at all times or be moved under protective cover.
Specific Authority 570.07(23), 581.031(1), (3), ( 8 ) FS. Law Implemented 570.07(2), (13), 570.0705, 581.031(1), (14), (17), (23) FS. History–New 12-26-06."


The definition section states that:
"(17) Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program. A mandatory program administered by the Division of Plant Industry whereby nurserymen, growers and other people propagating citrus, including all dooryard, own-use and commercial plantings, are required to propagate citrus in accordance with these rules."

jcaldeira

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 12:21:06 PM »
I think it may be illegal for you to propagate your own citrus in Florida without following the rules outlined here: https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?title=CITRUS%20NURSERY%20STOCK%20CERTIFICATION%20%20PROGRAM&ID=5B-62.011

"5B-62.011 Requirements for Citrus Propagation.
Commercial and dooryard citrus nursery stock shall be propagated according to the following provisions unless exempted in Rule 5B-62.016, F.A.C.
(1) Propagative material including budwood, air-layers, cuttings and all topworking material shall be from source trees produced or grown in accordance with Rule 5B-62.012, F.A.C., and for which a Certificate of Source Tree Registration (DACS-08072) has been issued as specified in Rule 5B-62.017, F.A.C.
(2) Budwood shall be taken under the direct supervision of a witness authorized by the Department. Budwood from each source tree shall be wrapped separately. Each bundle shall be labeled showing variety, the tree identification number, and the number of buds counted or estimated.
(3) All propagative material data including topworking shall be recorded on a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172) and submitted to the Bureau of Citrus Budwood Registration at the time of collection. Persons authorized to fill out a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172), shall sign a Certification To Witness Registered Budwood form, DACS-08111.
(4) Propagations from each source tree shall be maintained in nursery rows or on greenhouse benches so that each group can be traced back to an individual source tree. Nurserymen shall use permanent tags to label each separate group of propagations with the source tree registration number.
(5) All citrus nursery stock and propagative plant parts shall remain within the approved structure at all times or be moved under protective cover.
Specific Authority 570.07(23), 581.031(1), (3), ( 8 ) FS. Law Implemented 570.07(2), (13), 570.0705, 581.031(1), (14), (17), (23) FS. History–New 12-26-06."


The definition section states that:
"(17) Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program. A mandatory program administered by the Division of Plant Industry whereby nurserymen, growers and other people propagating citrus, including all dooryard, own-use and commercial plantings, are required to propagate citrus in accordance with these rules."

Wow!  That's pretty strict.  Is compliance with this law very high, or do many hobby growers violate it?
Applying laws and rules equally to all is a cornerstone of a civilized society.

bsbullie

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 12:43:06 PM »
I think it may be illegal for you to propagate your own citrus in Florida without following the rules outlined here: https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?title=CITRUS%20NURSERY%20STOCK%20CERTIFICATION%20%20PROGRAM&ID=5B-62.011

"5B-62.011 Requirements for Citrus Propagation.
Commercial and dooryard citrus nursery stock shall be propagated according to the following provisions unless exempted in Rule 5B-62.016, F.A.C.
(1) Propagative material including budwood, air-layers, cuttings and all topworking material shall be from source trees produced or grown in accordance with Rule 5B-62.012, F.A.C., and for which a Certificate of Source Tree Registration (DACS-08072) has been issued as specified in Rule 5B-62.017, F.A.C.
(2) Budwood shall be taken under the direct supervision of a witness authorized by the Department. Budwood from each source tree shall be wrapped separately. Each bundle shall be labeled showing variety, the tree identification number, and the number of buds counted or estimated.
(3) All propagative material data including topworking shall be recorded on a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172) and submitted to the Bureau of Citrus Budwood Registration at the time of collection. Persons authorized to fill out a Source Tree Bud Cutting Report (DACS-08172), shall sign a Certification To Witness Registered Budwood form, DACS-08111.
(4) Propagations from each source tree shall be maintained in nursery rows or on greenhouse benches so that each group can be traced back to an individual source tree. Nurserymen shall use permanent tags to label each separate group of propagations with the source tree registration number.
(5) All citrus nursery stock and propagative plant parts shall remain within the approved structure at all times or be moved under protective cover.
Specific Authority 570.07(23), 581.031(1), (3), ( 8 ) FS. Law Implemented 570.07(2), (13), 570.0705, 581.031(1), (14), (17), (23) FS. History–New 12-26-06."


The definition section states that:
"(17) Citrus Nursery Stock Certification Program. A mandatory program administered by the Division of Plant Industry whereby nurserymen, growers and other people propagating citrus, including all dooryard, own-use and commercial plantings, are required to propagate citrus in accordance with these rules."
I believe you are correct...the USDA has a very tight control on all types of citrus propagation and sales.

David - perhaps you might want to contact some of the citrus growers (not groves but citrus growers/nurseries further north up the state and see what they have to say (Floyds, Record Buck, Holmberg, Nelsons, etc.).  I see a lot of citrus on Swingle rootstock but I don't know of that is the norm/majority and also don't know if that is good or bad for growing in your neck of the woods.
- Rob

murahilin

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 01:28:09 PM »
Wow!  That's pretty strict.  Is compliance with this law very high, or do many hobby growers violate it?

As far as I can tell, compliance seems pretty high at least when it comes to commercial nurseries. I have not seen or heard of any nurseries violating the law. I am sure there are minor violations here or there though.

In FL before this law, anyone was able to propagate citrus and their was a much wider variety of trees to choose from. Now, with the restrictions in place, only certain growers are able to propagate and the number of cultivars available in FL has dropped.

davidgarcia899

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »
I know quite a few people who propagate there own Citrus in Miami. Big commercial nurseries comply, but most people aren't to fond of the Citrus police. Everyone has a story about there tree that got cut down during the canker days and it is usually followed with a "f***ing government, bureaucratic idiots"
- David Antonio Garcia

amaqeq

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 02:29:46 PM »
here in general volkameriana is used as rootstock for sour fruit types
it is regarded as Moderately resistant to alkaline soils chlorosis and such
from what I've read macrophylla is good to your area
since young trees are more sensitive than older ones it is possible to amend the soil in an bigger dig.
do not know if those rootstock varieties are available within those restrictions
mentioned above

murahilin

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 06:05:00 PM »
I know quite a few people who propagate there own Citrus in Miami. Big commercial nurseries comply, but most people aren't to fond of the Citrus police. Everyone has a story about there tree that got cut down during the canker days and it is usually followed with a "f***ing government, bureaucratic idiots"

People not following the law is how greening was introduced into California.

Canker was controllable, the government waited too long.  Greening is the reason people should follow the rules in regards to propagating citrus in FL.

bsbullie

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 12:16:00 AM »
I know quite a few people who propagate there own Citrus in Miami. Big commercial nurseries comply, but most people aren't to fond of the Citrus police. Everyone has a story about there tree that got cut down during the canker days and it is usually followed with a "f***ing government, bureaucratic idiots"

People not following the law is how greening was introduced into California.

Canker was controllable, the government waited too long.  Greening is the reason people should follow the rules in regards to propagating citrus in FL.
As you said, canker is/was controllable...I don't think the gov't waited too long, I feel they went overboard with the eradication of it all and took the "easy way out" instead of implementing a treatment program.
- Rob

murahilin

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 12:41:52 AM »
As you said, canker is/was controllable...I don't think the gov't waited too long, I feel they went overboard with the eradication of it all and took the "easy way out" instead of implementing a treatment program.

I definitely think they waited too long. Look at the history of canker in FL. They were able to eradicate it two times prior but this time I do not think they acted swiftly and severely enough. The reintroduction of canker after the last eradication was in 1995 I think. Now do you see why I think they did not move quickly enough?

bsbullie

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 12:51:06 AM »
As you said, canker is/was controllable...I don't think the gov't waited too long, I feel they went overboard with the eradication of it all and took the "easy way out" instead of implementing a treatment program.

I definitely think they waited too long. Look at the history of canker in FL. They were able to eradicate it two times prior but this time I do not think they acted swiftly and severely enough. The reintroduction of canker after the last eradication was in 1995 I think. Now do you see why I think they did not move quickly enough?
While I don't disagree with that, I think the delay was more due to the fact cause they were looking for another solution and not wanting to treat again.  It probably took some time to come to the final solution to destroy instead of treat.  I also think they felt it would lead to higher citrus prices within the state and in their brilliant minds probably felt that would be a good thing.  We won't even mention the medfly fiasco...
- Rob

murahilin

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 01:04:20 AM »
While I don't disagree with that, I think the delay was more due to the fact cause they were looking for another solution and not wanting to treat again.  It probably took some time to come to the final solution to destroy instead of treat.  I also think they felt it would lead to higher citrus prices within the state and in their brilliant minds probably felt that would be a good thing.  We won't even mention the medfly fiasco...

Oh well. Greening got us anyways! Haha

fyliu

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Re: Whats a good Citrus rootstock
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2012, 06:00:20 PM »
How did greening get into FL? Overseas plant import?

 

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