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Author Topic: Hoop house  (Read 8687 times)

CA Hockey

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #100 on: April 11, 2018, 10:01:51 AM »
How do you preserve your vents in heavy winds? Iíve heard that they can be blown away.

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2018, 10:56:49 AM »
Mark I just wanted to post a photo of this new pump and give an update on the HH.  First of all, RO is a must in the misters.  I started using well water and the plants got the mineral fallout on them and became unhappy.  Im planning to go get some battery acid and make some fake RO rainwater to give them an acid bath and reverse the damage.  Also the 1/3 gpm pump is way bigger than necessary for my setup.  So now Ive got a better feel for things Im switching to a smaller .13gpm pump.  Its the smallest pump CAT makes.  Going to only be running 6 .006" misters.  If you ever need a pump, let me know I can help you put one together a lot cheaper than aeromist or others sell them for. 


Brad Spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2018, 11:29:46 AM »
Would you mind providing a bit more information about your misting setup?  I am looking into doing the same for my 18x32' greenhouse.  I have city water which is pretty clear so I am going to try this as-is and do a RO system if it turns out to be necessary.

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2018, 12:03:27 PM »
Would you mind providing a bit more information about your misting setup?  I am looking into doing the same for my 18x32' greenhouse.  I have city water which is pretty clear so I am going to try this as-is and do a RO system if it turns out to be necessary.

Brian, you should get a TDS meter and check how much junk is in the water.

For your size greenhouse you could probably use the small one like this.  Its a CAT .13gpm

To be honest it would take me a LOT of time to tell you everything you need to make it work.  Theres a ton of pipe fittings and stuff you will need to source from multiple places.  I have it on a humidistat and have a relay setup, its own breaker etc.  I ordered the pump from kleen rite in PA which sources it from CAT. 

The mist line and misters and mist fittings are from aeromist.com and the pipe fittings are from mcmaster.  Relay was off amazon.

Basically you are going to need to know how to do plumbing and electrical to set it up.

I will take photos of it when I put it together later today.  Then if you want you can call me to discuss later in the week. 
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2018, 02:38:02 PM »
Thanks for the info!   I know quite a bit about electric and plumbing so I expect I can make it work, but I had no idea where to start looking for parts.

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #105 on: August 07, 2018, 10:18:20 PM »
Ok, pump is pretty much setup.  All the stuff on the output side needs to be rated for 1000psi.  It came with a vibration dampening hose and you have to add all the external pipe fittings.  I put a liquid filled anti vibration pressure gauge on it and it has low pressure quick connects on the input port and bypass and will have a 1000psi push to connect in the outlet. 













Brad Spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2018, 12:38:01 PM »
Awesome!   Thank you for the details.   I am thinking of putting a grid of fogger bars on my inlet shutters.  My water comes in via a Woodford frost-free faucet.  I am thinking I can attach a tee with one end for my watering host and other to the fogger pump, and initially trigger it from a line voltage thermostat.  I will look into specialized evaporative cooling controls, but the ones I saw when I looked briefly once before were very expensive.   

behlgarden

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2018, 12:43:00 PM »
Mark I just wanted to post a photo of this new pump and give an update on the HH.  First of all, RO is a must in the misters.  I started using well water and the plants got the mineral fallout on them and became unhappy.  Im planning to go get some battery acid and make some fake RO rainwater to give them an acid bath and reverse the damage.  Also the 1/3 gpm pump is way bigger than necessary for my setup.  So now Ive got a better feel for things Im switching to a smaller .13gpm pump.  Its the smallest pump CAT makes.  Going to only be running 6 .006" misters.  If you ever need a pump, let me know I can help you put one together a lot cheaper than aeromist or others sell them for. 



Brad, I would recommend that you use a simple sediment filter before feed goes to your RO, this will extend life of your RO filters and sediment filter is cheap, and will catch most just upfront.

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2018, 02:58:15 PM »
Yeah I have lots of filters, theres 5 stages of filtering before the water ever hits the RO membranes.  Kind of overkill but even with 5 filters in series the filters turn brown after a week in use.
Brad Spaugh

Mark in Texas

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2018, 10:20:19 AM »
Mark I just wanted to post a photo of this new pump and give an update on the HH.  First of all, RO is a must in the misters.  I started using well water and the plants got the mineral fallout on them and became unhappy.  Im planning to go get some battery acid and make some fake RO rainwater to give them an acid bath and reverse the damage.  Also the 1/3 gpm pump is way bigger than necessary for my setup.  So now Ive got a better feel for things Im switching to a smaller .13gpm pump.  Its the smallest pump CAT makes.  Going to only be running 6 .006" misters.  If you ever need a pump, let me know I can help you put one together a lot cheaper than aeromist or others sell them for. 



Nice job and again thanks for sharing your info.  Yes, I'll be picking your brain fer sure.   You're right about knowing electrical and plumbing.  Most of the work is learning what fittings you'll need to hook the thing up.

I figured the well water was going to last all of about 1 day.   :D  It will toast you equipment and paint your plants white with salts.  R/O or rainwater is the only way to go.

Regards,
Mark

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2018, 10:36:04 AM »
Mark and Brian search google for "4040 RO membrane"  or "4040 RO stainless housing". 

For the cost thats probably the best option for RO water.  2500GPD for under 300$

I will be going that route when the time comes to replace the current membranes.
Brad Spaugh

Mark in Texas

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2018, 11:14:35 AM »
Mark and Brian search google for "4040 RO membrane"  or "4040 RO stainless housing". 

For the cost thats probably the best option for RO water.  2500GPD for under 300$

I will be going that route when the time comes to replace the current membranes.

Got it, thanks!   https://www.amazon.com/Dow-Filmtec-XLE-4040-Commercial-Membrane/dp/B00D43H6W0

This is what's been keeping me busy.  Some of these bad boyz went up to 3#.  Fruit is pristine.





spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2018, 11:42:22 AM »
They have the stainless 4040 housings for 99$ and membranes for 170$ on ebay.  2500gpd is not a joke.  Thats a lot of RO.

Mark, grapes are looking good.  We got some ruby grapes starting to ripen up here.  I have to be honest I know very little about growing grapes.  It seems like the less I do for yhem the better they perform.
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #113 on: May 07, 2019, 03:08:53 AM »
I build RODI filters for reef aquariums .For misters you would need only RO without the DI( deionisation resin) resin wich its expensive and needs to be replaced quite offten.The most important thing to have when you have a RO filter its a TDS meter wich stands for Total Dissolved Solids.Beware that somme TDS are expensive,somme can be mounted inline with the filter ,but there are verry cheap and accurate ones on Ebay( 5 dolars or so cost).Without DI you will never get zero TDS instead ,depending on the tap water you should be good enough with 30-40 TDS.You dont have to use the RO filter every day but the membrane should stay always wet and most important its to clean the membrane periodically or when the TDS gets too big ( it has a special valve for cleaning,you turn that on and off).You need at least 4 atm of pressure and a container with a float switch that turns it off.If you dont have 4 atm pressure you can use a booster pump.If you have verry hard water you can use a polyphosphate filter( preferably for human consumption )before the RO system.Also beware that the RO makes clean and more dirrtyer water than the tap water wich will have the TDS much higher .You could use that water for something instead of throwing it on the sewage.You would need 3 filter for the RO instalation,first -5 micron filter,second active charcoal filter and the last its the membrane.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2019, 07:05:23 AM »
I build RODI filters for reef aquariums .For misters you would need only RO without the DI( deionisation resin) resin wich its expensive and needs to be replaced quite offten.The most important thing to have when you have a RO filter its a TDS meter wich stands for Total Dissolved Solids.Beware that somme TDS are expensive,somme can be mounted inline with the filter ,but there are verry cheap and accurate ones on Ebay( 5 dolars or so cost).Without DI you will never get zero TDS instead ,depending on the tap water you should be good enough with 30-40 TDS.You dont have to use the RO filter every day but the membrane should stay always wet and most important its to clean the membrane periodically or when the TDS gets too big ( it has a special valve for cleaning,you turn that on and off).You need at least 4 atm of pressure and a container with a float switch that turns it off.If you dont have 4 atm pressure you can use a booster pump.If you have verry hard water you can use a polyphosphate filter( preferably for human consumption )before the RO system.Also beware that the RO makes clean and more dirrtyer water than the tap water wich will have the TDS much higher .You could use that water for something instead of throwing it on the sewage.You would need 3 filter for the RO instalation,first -5 micron filter,second active charcoal filter and the last its the membrane.

How long does that polyphosphate filter last?  Gallons?

I'm getting quotes on a RO system to provide water for an Aquafog.   Hang it and you're done.  My TDS runs 678 - 800 ppm but the problem is the hardness is way up there in the 400's.  With such a hardness value vendors recommend a water softener first.  That's just another gadget I don't feel like installing in line including loading it with salt. All of this takes up precious greenhouse real estate too.

Out of about 6 vendors I have yet to contact here's the first quote I got yesterday for everything needed, I guess.  ::)

On demand 1000 GPD R/O.  https://reverseosmosis.com/products/evolution-ro-1000-gallon-per-day-on-demand-ro-system

Booster pump before the R/O unit - https://reverseosmosis.com/collections/pumps/products/aquatec-8800-3-8-hi-flow-booster-pump-w-pressure-switch-transformer

Carbon prefilter that apparently removes much of the solids first. https://reverseosmosis.com/products/evolution-ro1000-kdf-carbon-prefilter

Water delivery pump to the tank.  https://reverseosmosis.com/products/aquatech-5800-water-delivery-pump

Storage tank which I assume feeds direct to the Aquafiog fogger which requires a minimum 10 PSI input. https://reverseosmosis.com/collections/storage-tanks/products/14-gallon-water-storage-tank

15 gph fogger with sump and float valve - https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/

Total - $2,391

R/O unit is overkill at 1000 GPD. I figure the fogger will need 150 gpd.  $625 is cheap enough for an on demand type.

 

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #115 on: May 08, 2019, 10:24:09 AM »
I put roll up sides on the hoop house and ditched the mist system.  Im pretty happy with that move.  So much less crap to deal with. 

Mark, are you able to just install more windows or something on the GH so you dont have to buy all that stuff?  It seems like a like of pieces. 

Regarding RO unit GPD ratings, go way bigger than you think you need.  My experience is they dont make as much as they claim by a longshot.  Some of those specs are with really high input pressure ratings like 400psi.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 10:55:32 AM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #116 on: May 08, 2019, 01:36:42 PM »
The polyphosphate filter its cheap and you might get away only with it and a carbon filter ( + a 5 micron mesh)for the fogger.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PureOne-PS1-Polyphosphate-Set-1-Stufige-Filteranlage-10-Zoll/162876113904?hash=item25ec2c43f0:m:mdOGXS8Y9_l5Kl00I_j0Fdg So,your planning to make 600 litters of RO water per day to run that fogger for 10 hours continuously?Thats a lot of RO water and you will loose a few cubic meters of water as waste water daily.You probably need a controller to turn the fogger on and off intermitently or even a timer socket so that way you would use much less RO water .If you have high pressure tap water,then you dont need the booster pump.150 gpd membrane plus housing at just 34 dollars( verry cheap) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reverse-Osmosis-Membrane-Filter-2012-150-GPD-Replacement-for-TF-3012-500-TFM-100-/263260804792
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 02:07:42 PM by SeaWalnut »

spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2019, 03:52:07 PM »
Those RO filters dont make as much water as they claim unless you have several hundred psi input pressure.  And you need to run a lot of waste water to get low TDS.  You are much better off getting an industrial size 4040 membrane and housing.  Trust me on this.

Mark, if it were me, I would hook the RO unit onto your rain catch tank on a float valve.  Then use a small boost pump from the tank to the mister.  Probably need a small bladder tank after the booster to give some elasticity to the system.  You wanna size the booster correctly also or its going to be cycling on and off constantly.  Thats a great way to burn up a motor.

Get the water softener and put it outside the GH along with a proper 4040 stainless membrane housing.  They must make weather proof softeners. 

And to control the mister, they have 30$ humitidy and or temperature controllers on amazon, that part will be easy.  But you should ask the mist company how often their mist pump can be cycled on and off.  That was a problem I ran into, the mist pump was cyxlig too much and the charge cap on the motor didnt have time to charge.  Motor wouldnt start, and breaker would get thrown on that outlet. 

Major pain in the ass.  Glad Im not doing that anymore.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 04:03:35 PM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

tve

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2019, 04:51:01 PM »
spaugh, any idea yet about the level of humidity on hot&dry days? Or did you just ditch the misting this winter? I'm wondering what I can do in terms of hoop house or similar in the summer to increase humidity without spending a lot of water and without having to run big fans for cooling due to plastic covering, etc. I.e., I'm wondering what the minimum is to create a bit of a microclimate that captures the plant transpiration...

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #119 on: May 08, 2019, 06:22:29 PM »
For winter you dont need the misting, having a fan or enough windows and wind is enough to keep things cool.  I have my fan and shutters on a thermostat and can keep it whatever temp I set it to easily in winter.  Summer is a dofferent story.  You need to open the GH all the way up or have mist etc to keep it cool.  Otherwise its way too hot. 

The best way to raise the humidity level is going to be having lots of plants crammed in a small protected area.  Greenhouses can hold in humidity but its also going to be holding in the heat.  So yeah its a pain to get all that right.  If you are paying for city water, probably just plant a bunch of dense bushes around an area, get some canopy trees or shade cloth, and make a protected area instead of a GH. 

Probably not what you wanted to hear but thats my advice. 

The other thing is the hoop houses dont offer much night time warmth.  Its not a problem for me since it doesnt get that cold here but if your goal is to keep your plants from freezing you want a GH with dual pane walls that actually hold heat in at night.  A single layer of plastic isnt going to cut it. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 06:34:01 PM by spaugh »
Brad Spaugh

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #120 on: May 08, 2019, 07:01:31 PM »
Off course that the bigger the membrane the better and i posted that 150GPD /30 dollars housing and membrane as an example for the right price and having in mind that Mark wont really need 600 litters of RO water a day.In his link the RO unit has 2 membranes and housings.Membranes are set to work between 40-60 psi .100 psi would damage most peoples instalations in homes.No matter what membrane you will use you will still have probably 4 times  more wastewater than the quantity of the RO water.I know its frustrating to need the RO water fast and to have to wait hours until its produced .That polyphosphate filter i found on Ebay ,would last years if only used without RO membrane ( with RO membrane,lifespan reduces to probably less than a quarter of time because you will throw 3 quarters of the RO waste water and will have to filter those also.For cirsculating high pressure pumps ,the chinese make somme really nice 12 Volts diaphragm pumps for like just 20 dollars.They really strong,stronger than the expensive booster pumps and they last the same as the expensive booster pumps @ 3000 hours because they have brushed motoŕs and those brushes are consumable parts. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Diaphragm-Water-Self-Priming-Pump-High-Pressure-Car-BOAT-70W/153352524781?epid=2172218673&hash=item23b485d3ed:g:9JIAAOSwp3dcS0DR These small pumps get to 130 psi and can work on lower voltages like 4 volts or so, to last longer oŕ be more quiet.Can also be used with solar pannels but they  need amperage @4 amps.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 07:08:27 PM by SeaWalnut »

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2019, 12:02:45 AM »
If you are paying for city water, probably just plant a bunch of dense bushes around an area, get some canopy trees or shade cloth, and make a protected area instead of a GH. 

The issue I see is the shade. For shade plants, yeah; the difficult situation is for plants that should get more or less full sun. I've been wondering about using some insect barrier covering or something like that. Should let >80% of sunlight through. Dunno how much of the humidity it keeps in if it's just the overhead part.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2019, 09:34:20 AM »
Those RO filters dont make as much water as they claim unless you have several hundred psi input pressure.  And you need to run a lot of waste water to get low TDS.  You are much better off getting an industrial size 4040 membrane and housing.  Trust me on this.

Mark, if it were me, I would hook the RO unit onto your rain catch tank on a float valve.  Then use a small boost pump from the tank to the mister.  Probably need a small bladder tank after the booster to give some elasticity to the system.  You wanna size the booster correctly also or its going to be cycling on and off constantly.  Thats a great way to burn up a motor.

Get the water softener and put it outside the GH along with a proper 4040 stainless membrane housing.  They must make weather proof softeners. 

And to control the mister, they have 30$ humitidy and or temperature controllers on amazon, that part will be easy.  But you should ask the mist company how often their mist pump can be cycled on and off.  That was a problem I ran into, the mist pump was cyxlig too much and the charge cap on the motor didnt have time to charge.  Motor wouldnt start, and breaker would get thrown on that outlet. 

Major pain in the ass.  Glad Im not doing that anymore.

Yes it is and thanks for the detailed food for thought.  Hell, I might just install a 9,000 gal. water tank under the other gutter, tie it into the tank I already have and draw from that.  The existing 305 gal. water tank would last all of 3 days.

No misters, pump, etc..... just hang one of these and forget it.  Video is worth watching. https://www.jaybird-mfg.com/products/gt-500-series/gt-500-hanging-sump/

Or, install a TAC system.  This no salt softener tech is bonafide.  Here's some lab tests on 3 water conditioners - magnetic, electromagnetic and Template Assisted Crystalization or TAC. https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Webinar-WateReuse-08-06.pdf   

I assume that because scale does not form that the R/O unit would flush it out, meaning I could go direct from the conditioner to the R/O system?

I got a couple of quotes so far.  Still working on it.   One includes a booster pump before and a small pump aft, pressurized tank, etc.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2019, 09:41:19 AM »
Off course that the bigger the membrane the better and i posted that 150GPD /30 dollars housing and membrane as an example for the right price and having in mind that Mark wont really need 600 litters of RO water a day.In his link the RO unit has 2 membranes and housings.Membranes are set to work between 40-60 psi .100 psi would damage most peoples instalations in homes.No matter what membrane you will use you will still have probably 4 times  more wastewater than the quantity of the RO water.I know its frustrating to need the RO water fast and to have to wait hours until its produced .That polyphosphate filter i found on Ebay ,would last years if only used without RO membrane ( with RO membrane,lifespan reduces to probably less than a quarter of time because you will throw 3 quarters of the RO waste water and will have to filter those also.For cirsculating high pressure pumps ,the chinese make somme really nice 12 Volts diaphragm pumps for like just 20 dollars.They really strong,stronger than the expensive booster pumps and they last the same as the expensive booster pumps @ 3000 hours because they have brushed motoŕs and those brushes are consumable parts. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Diaphragm-Water-Self-Priming-Pump-High-Pressure-Car-BOAT-70W/153352524781?epid=2172218673&hash=item23b485d3ed:g:9JIAAOSwp3dcS0DR These small pumps get to 130 psi and can work on lower voltages like 4 volts or so, to last longer oŕ be more quiet.Can also be used with solar pannels but they  need amperage @4 amps.

Thanks for the info!  After looking at units on Amazon, ebay, etc.  I've settled on this unit.  Not the cheapest but it has a booster pump, gauges to monitor pressure, etc. https://www.freshwatersystems.com/collections/reverse-osmosis-systems/products/axeon-l1-200-series-commercial-reverse-osmosis-system-200-gpd  80 gal. bladder tank on top of that.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Hoop house
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2019, 09:48:06 AM »
I put roll up sides on the hoop house and ditched the mist system.  Im pretty happy with that move.  So much less crap to deal with. 

Mark, are you able to just install more windows or something on the GH so you dont have to buy all that stuff?  It seems like a like of pieces. 

Regarding RO unit GPD ratings, go way bigger than you think you need.  My experience is they dont make as much as they claim by a longshot.  Some of those specs are with really high input pressure ratings like 400psi.

Like we discussed on the phone, I have about 10X the venting most greenhouse techs recommend.  Wall vent is 4' X 36' and faces south prevailing winds that can sometimes get into the 40's mph. Roof is 2' X 36'.  2 swamp cooler provide a total of 10,000 CFM input.








 

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