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Author Topic: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?  (Read 7165 times)

Pancrazio

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Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« on: February 05, 2012, 12:40:23 PM »
Some time ago in an italian forum i have had respectful disagreement on another user about the subject in the title of this thread.
We were talking about the possibility of grafting some annonaceae on asimina triloba. Asimina triloba is, as you know, very cold tolerant. We were talking about the fact that an asimina rootstock could be used (at least for the annonaceae that are compatible) to increase the frost resistance of the scion (at least for the cherimoya, or for the A. squamosa).
The other user said that it was really possible, as the seeds of those annonaceae are orthodox, so the DNA of many annonas has instructions for building the frost-resistance proteins. He simply haven't had enough time to try it by itself, so he wasn't able to convince me with datas. I said that it seems to me a bit irrealistic to induce the transcription of a protein in a subtropical annona just trough grafting, but i wasn't sure too.
Anyway, i'm more interested in growing some annonas than being right. So i would really love to be wrong and having some of you that can confirm me that is really possible. Of course, we both (me and the other user) don't expect, if this is possible, to see annonas at -10F, but we expect an increase of 5-7F in their frost resistance... but it would also be great, and it would open to the growt of this plant even places where now is impossible to grow. 
Well, if there is someone that knows this must be here. Ideas?
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siafu

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 01:11:31 PM »

Hi Pancrazio,

Getting 5-7F of frost resistance is overly optimistic. I agree with you that's very unlikely.
Asimina is frost tolerant because it is fully dormant in the winter. The rest of the anonas
have very brief dormancy periods. Grafting won't change that and the cold will kill
the wood when the sap freezes.

However, I can imagine grafting helping to grow species that, for example, are not tolerant of cool, wet soils,
and such.

For instance, using A. cherimola as rootstock for A. squamosa might help it survive the cold
wet winter it dislikes.

By the way, how is your Mango doing? I saw that Italy has been very cold, too.
Sérgio Duarte
Algarve, Portugal

--Vale sempre a pena, quando a alma não é pequena!

Pancrazio

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 02:19:17 PM »
In last 100 hours or so we have been under 32F. I really don't know how my mango is doing, since it is sealed in the cover, but i expect it to survive, at least for the temperatures i see for now. I'm keeping also 3 not grafted plants in an unheated greenhouse to see if the will die.
That said, i hope to see the end of this cold spell as soon as possible. I can't remember anything similiar in my entire life till now.
I really should consider moving in a warmer place.
What's about you?
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siafu

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 03:55:02 PM »
Hi,

Let us know how it did when you open the cover. Let's hope this cold goes away soon. I hate
the cold, too. I wish I could move to a warmer place...and this is nothing like they are having
throughout Europe.

Here, the last 3 nights were well below average. At my place, it dropped down to around +1.5C.
My stuff is still fine, except for my Annona muricata plants. They are very tender
and start to show some damage below +7C, and do badly below +4C.
Sérgio Duarte
Algarve, Portugal

--Vale sempre a pena, quando a alma não é pequena!

fruitlovers

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 01:50:47 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar
Oscar

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 01:53:05 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar

I second that notion Oscar....but wouldn't rule out the possibility...

fruitlovers

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 01:56:46 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar

I second that notion Oscar....but wouldn't rule out the possibility...

I don't rule it out either. But was tried before and it didn't work. As pointed out before intra-genus grafts rarely work. If you do try it use an approach graft.
Oscar
Oscar

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 02:00:29 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar

I second that notion Oscar....but wouldn't rule out the possibility...

I don't rule it out either. But was tried before and it didn't work. As pointed out before intra-genus grafts rarely work. If you do try it use an approach graft.
Oscar

Thanks Oscar!

I'm glad you've heard others tried and it didn't work...I'm not gonna waste my time...

Are you interested in the smaller shrubby asimina species native to FL?  Maybe I'll start a separate topic

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 02:03:55 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar

I second that notion Oscar....but wouldn't rule out the possibility...

I don't rule it out either. But was tried before and it didn't work. As pointed out before intra-genus grafts rarely work. If you do try it use an approach graft.
Oscar

Thanks Oscar!

I'm glad you've heard others tried and it didn't work...I'm not gonna waste my time...

Are you interested in the smaller shrubby asimina species native to FL?  Maybe I'll start a separate topic

I'd be very interested in the other direction: Asiminas that can fruit in tropical places and are fairly good quality. Are there any species of Asimina that will fruit in Southern Florida. I figure if they will fruit there can also do it here.
Oscar
Oscar

FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 02:06:27 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar

I second that notion Oscar....but wouldn't rule out the possibility...

I don't rule it out either. But was tried before and it didn't work. As pointed out before intra-genus grafts rarely work. If you do try it use an approach graft.
Oscar

Thanks Oscar!

I'm glad you've heard others tried and it didn't work...I'm not gonna waste my time...

Are you interested in the smaller shrubby asimina species native to FL?  Maybe I'll start a separate topic

I'd be very interested in the other direction: Asiminas that can fruit in tropical places and are fairly good quality. Are there any species of Asimina that will fruit in Southern Florida. I figure if they will fruit there can also do it here.
Oscar


Check my new topic...I have seeds for you soon Oscar!!  They will fruit by you for sure, just taste like metal or medicine!!! HAHA sorry

fruitlovers

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 02:09:17 AM »
Too bad about the taste! Do you have any photos of these species? Are any of them graft compatible with triloba?
Oscar
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FlyingFoxFruits

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 02:11:20 AM »
Too bad about the taste! Do you have any photos of these species? Are any of them graft compatible with triloba?
Oscar

Ya, I email you some links...I m sure you can graft triloba on...I tried one year, but my method was poor....look in your email boss.


Guanabanus

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2012, 10:02:41 PM »
Crafon Clift topworked one of his Asimina hybrids onto a large Guanabanus montanus (Annona montana) at the Kampong, south of Miami.  The graft grew 4-5 feet, maybe more, and lasted at least two years.  Eventually something happened to it, got shaded out or snapped in a hurricane, perhaps.

Note that this was a large tree used as a rootstock, with the tree allowed to keep most of its own branches, fully leafed out all year.  Such a rootstock wouldn't "care" if one small branch were leafless a couple of months.

Theoretically a fully-leafed-out scion would "care" if the roots under it went dormant;  but maybe growth regulators sent down from healthy leaves would prevent the roots from going dormant.  Or maybe a normally-evergreen scion, knocked leafless by bad weather, would be awakened better in the spring by roots used to not being fed for months.

It sounds worth trying.  I have no idea if the true Annonas (Sugar-Apples, Cherimoyas, Custard-Apples, etc.) would be graft compatible with Asimina.
Har

Pancrazio

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 08:23:31 PM »
It sounds worth trying.  I have no idea if the true Annonas (Sugar-Apples, Cherimoyas, Custard-Apples, etc.) would be graft compatible with Asimina.

I think is worth trying too. Still i wonder if this can be useful in some way, i'm sheptical about the cold tolerance, but for sure asimina is so diverse from other annonas that its roots can be putted in some use!
I wonder if the lack of compatibility can be avoided with the use of an interstock?
Will take some years before i have asimina seedling ready to experiment, but the fact you report, that asimina supported, with a least some compatibility, annona montana gives some hope.
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edself65

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 03:39:03 AM »
I tried a couple dozen grafts of cherimoya onto asimina triloba rootstock several years ago. I had budwood mailed to me from 6 different cherimoya varieties. All of my grafts failed. I still think it is worth trying. I plan to try some atemoyas onto asimina triloba rootstock since I have both growing at my place.

Ed

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 03:48:23 AM »
I tried a couple dozen grafts of cherimoya onto asimina triloba rootstock several years ago. I had budwood mailed to me from 6 different cherimoya varieties. All of my grafts failed. I still think it is worth trying. I plan to try some atemoyas onto asimina triloba rootstock since I have both growing at my place.

Ed


" The use of Annona cherimola as a stock [for paw paw] is successful the first year but graft incompatibilities become apparent the second, according to Thomson (1974)."
http://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/pawpaw/propagation.htm
Oscar

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 08:51:00 AM »
It's a good idea, but unfortunately i don't think Asimina and Annona are compatible for grafting.
Oscar

I second that notion Oscar....but wouldn't rule out the possibility...

I don't rule it out either. But was tried before and it didn't work. As pointed out before intra-genus grafts rarely work. If you do try it use an approach graft.
Oscar

Thanks Oscar!

I'm glad you've heard others tried and it didn't work...I'm not gonna waste my time...

Are you interested in the smaller shrubby asimina species native to FL?  Maybe I'll start a separate topic

I'd be very interested in the other direction: Asiminas that can fruit in tropical places and are fairly good quality. Are there any species of Asimina that will fruit in Southern Florida. I figure if they will fruit there can also do it here.
Oscar
Just fruits and exotics sells a type that they say was found in the fl panhandle. Might be worth a try. I am growing a variety called "mango" that seems to be doing pretty well in central fl. Mine is still  small though

nullzero

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 12:09:42 PM »
I tried a couple dozen grafts of cherimoya onto asimina triloba rootstock several years ago. I had budwood mailed to me from 6 different cherimoya varieties. All of my grafts failed. I still think it is worth trying. I plan to try some atemoyas onto asimina triloba rootstock since I have both growing at my place.

Ed


" The use of Annona cherimola as a stock [for paw paw] is successful the first year but graft incompatibilities become apparent the second, according to Thomson (1974)."
http://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/pawpaw/propagation.htm


Pawpaw chill hours are uncertain on a lot of varieties from what I have read. It is claimed most need 400 hours or so (you probably know this already). There are a good number of people growing pawpaws around 300 chill hours. I am tempted to grow 2 varieties of pawpaw down here in SoCal.

Here is a post about a Pawpaw setting fruit in Santa Ana, CA http://www.cloudforest.com/cafe/forum/201073598.html
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:11:58 PM by nullzero »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 05:28:55 PM »
There is a lady from CRFG that fruited paw paws in coastal Santa Monica, which i think has close to zero chill hours. I forget what cultivars she used, but if interested can look it up.
Oscar

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 07:35:06 PM »
There is a lady from CRFG that fruited paw paws in coastal Santa Monica, which i think has close to zero chill hours. I forget what cultivars she used, but if interested can look it up.


I think most years Santa Monica has around 50 or so chill hours. I really wanted to try out some of Neal Peterson's selections, was not sure how they would do in Coastal and Inland locations of SoCal. I am pretty confident in inland Orange County, most pawpaw varieties would fruit. Was going to start with 2 varieties and see where it goes from there.

Santa Ana gets about the same amount of chill hours. However the weather can be more sporadic, since the inland heat can kick in for a few days in the winter sometimes.
Chill hours this year so far; http://fruitsandnuts.ucdavis.edu/chillcalc/index1.htm
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:38:44 PM by nullzero »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2012, 10:32:12 PM »
There is a lady from CRFG that fruited paw paws in coastal Santa Monica, which i think has close to zero chill hours. I forget what cultivars she used, but if interested can look it up.


I think most years Santa Monica has around 50 or so chill hours. I really wanted to try out some of Neal Peterson's selections, was not sure how they would do in Coastal and Inland locations of SoCal. I am pretty confident in inland Orange County, most pawpaw varieties would fruit. Was going to start with 2 varieties and see where it goes from there.

Santa Ana gets about the same amount of chill hours. However the weather can be more sporadic, since the inland heat can kick in for a few days in the winter sometimes.
Chill hours this year so far; http://fruitsandnuts.ucdavis.edu/chillcalc/index1.htm


This person in Santa Monica lives very close to the ocean, so i doubt she gets even 50 hours chill.
Oscar

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2012, 10:39:44 PM »
I am growing one of the Neal Peterson selections here in the Orlando area. I brought here with me from Texas in March 2011. It went through its first winter here this year. My "Wabash" currently has a few flower buds on it. I hope it well set a few fruit this year. I was growing PA Golden in the Houston area the past 10 years and it performed very well for me providing fruit every year. So I think it is other one that could be considered low chill.

Thanks,

Ed

fruitlovers

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2012, 12:52:04 AM »
The 2 cultivars of paw paw that fruited in coastal Santa Monica, California are Davis and Sunflower.
Oscar

nullzero

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2012, 01:03:21 AM »
The 2 cultivars of paw paw that fruited in coastal Santa Monica, California are Davis and Sunflower.

Thank you Oscar, for doing this followup! It really helps me make an easy decision, I am going to grow one or both of the varieties  ;D.
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Pancrazio

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Re: Increasing Annonaceae frost resistance through grafting?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2012, 07:51:53 PM »
It really helps me make an easy decision, I am going to grow one or both of the varieties  ;D.


If you are interested in some tasting reviews you can also look here:

http://southcenters.osu.edu/horticulture/pdf-documents/2008-icm-fruit-news/vol-12-num-28-oct-14-08.pdf

Not very accurate, but gives you an idea.
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