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Author Topic: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint  (Read 1253 times)

Jose Spain

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Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« on: February 08, 2018, 07:52:53 AM »
Hi,

I'm trying to find Copper(II) hydroxide here in Spain to make my own paint and is being way difficult. Shops don't sell less than 5 kilos for 45Ä and you need a professional card of pesticide manipulator (which I don't have) to purchase it. There is any other copper fungicide easier to find that can be use as an alternative to Copper Hydroxide to prepare the paint?

Thanks for your help

Jose

Bananaizme

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 08:09:06 AM »
 I just bought a 4 pound bag off ebay .

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 08:46:01 AM »
I just bought a 4 pound bag off ebay .

Thank you Bananaizme. Could you give me the link so I can check shipping cost into EU?
Jose

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 11:52:29 AM »
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?
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Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2018, 11:57:11 AM »
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?

Enough to paint about 50 pots, 1.5 galons each.
Jose

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2018, 03:47:16 PM »
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?

Enough to paint about 50 pots, 1.5 galons each.

Ok got it.....there are lots of posts here about root pruning paint so you've probably already read about MicroKote...You can check their website but from my experience with it, a little goes a pretty long way. May be easier than trying to make your own since you don't need a ton of it.
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Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2018, 04:26:17 PM »
Jose, how much finished product are you wanting to make?

Enough to paint about 50 pots, 1.5 galons each.

Ok got it.....there are lots of posts here about root pruning paint so you've probably already read about MicroKote...You can check their website but from my experience with it, a little goes a pretty long way. May be easier than trying to make your own since you don't need a ton of it.

Problem is that Microkote is not for sale in Europe. So apparently I don't have other option that to make it myself or buy paint for ships. :-\
Jose

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2018, 04:34:05 PM »
Oh no! Bummer. I didnít realize that about MicroKote
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Bananaizme

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 12:24:08 AM »
  Jose  I just looked at the shipping info and it excluded Europe . Sorry.

 William

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 02:02:07 AM »
You can use 'Kocide 101' manufactured by Dupont, which might be available in Spain. This product contains 77% Copper hydroxide.

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 07:36:34 AM »
You can use 'Kocide 101' manufactured by Dupont, which might be available in Spain. This product contains 77% Copper hydroxide.

Not for sale in EU either :/ Thanks. I have Copper oxide and Dicopper chloride trihydroxide, but I don't know if they have the same properties than hydroxide.
Jose

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 08:32:49 AM »
Copper sulfate and ammonia (to make CuOH2) though that would be a pain  :P

Both CuO and Cu2(OH)3Cl should put a dent in fungi and prune/suppress roots. No idea if you would want to use them or not and this isnít advice to do either. I would lean towards copper oxide being ok, see if you can find anything on it being used. How about copper carbonate?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 08:45:40 AM by Ulfr »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 08:57:23 AM »
DIY formula.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0

FWIW it's worth, been using root tip pruning systems for decades.  Copper paints are about the best.

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 02:39:49 PM »
DIY formula.  http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3239.0

FWIW it's worth, been using root tip pruning systems for decades.  Copper paints are about the best.


Thank you Mark, actually that was the thread from which I got the info. I found more info about it, see below ;)

Copper sulfate and ammonia (to make CuOH2) though that would be a pain  :P

Both CuO and Cu2(OH)3Cl should put a dent in fungi and prune/suppress roots. No idea if you would want to use them or not and this isnít advice to do either. I would lean towards copper oxide being ok, see if you can find anything on it being used. How about copper carbonate?



You were right Ulfr, I think that all 4 of them would work. I follow your tip and searched for info and I found a patent which explain this:

"Preferably, the water-insoluble copper compound is in powder form and selected from the group consisting of copper oxychloride, copper oxide, copper carbonate and copper hydroxide.The particle size of the compound in powder form is preferably in the range of 0.5 to 2 microns. Suitable copper compounds meeting the above requirements are commercialized by GRIFFIN CORP. under the trademarks KOCIDE 101 or SPIN OUT FP. These compounds contain proprietary ingredients enhancing the dispersion and activity of the basic copper compound, which is preferably copper hydroxide. As aforesaid, the copper compound acts as a growth regulator by chemically pruning the rootlets and radicles that come in contact with it.

Here the patent: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US5575112.pdf

Now I must find out how much copper oxychloride (which is the easiest to find here) I must add to one litre of latex paint to make it work.  :)

Thank you both.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 02:42:23 PM by Jose Spain »
Jose

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 03:45:58 PM »
Thatís great Jose.

Keep us posted on how it goes :)

Mark in Texas

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 07:46:48 AM »
Jose you could also use air/light to root prune.  I use RootBuilder and make my own bottomless pots adding panels to them as needed or based on the tree requirements.  For example avocados have a wide shallow root system so they get about 55 gal. pots.  If a roll is cost prohibited to ship I'd recommend the white fabric pots which happens to be one of the staff's favorite grow pots.  She lives in Alabama which gets quite hot in the summer.  The design requires less water and the white helps reflect the sun's rays.

Open up the photo of the Moro blood orange.  There's two white thick roots about 7:30 and 5:00 growing into the native soil.  Perimeter roots are almost none existent and there's no root spin out.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50

BTW, some of those trees are/were (had a hard freeze, heater malfunction) pruned to 10'.  Thanks to the freeze we recently processed at least 300 blood oranges, 50 Meyer lemons and put up some incredible batches of orange marmalade, gallons of juice, ice cubes, etc.  Hombre, if you've never done orange marmalade you are missing it.  ;)
 

Good luck!


greenman62

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 09:38:04 AM »
the $1 dolla-store has several sizes of containers
i use a knife and punch holes in the side.
(wiggle the knife a bit to open it up)
ive had great success with this.
if you need 1 or 2 containers and have the $%, get root-pruning pots,
but, i needed lots, this was much cheaper.

i have a couple of fabric containers,
and for some reason they stay damp and get moldy.
i am always sitting them in the sun, on top of something
to let them dry.
maybe this is good for Jabos in the summer...



Jack, Nipomo

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 10:39:40 AM »
Bottom paints for boats are available in almost countries.  The copper bottom paints eliminate algae and other marine growths. Lots of different versions and could be found in a ship store or other port facilities.

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 03:02:41 PM »
Jose you could also use air/light to root prune.  I use RootBuilder and make my own bottomless pots adding panels to them as needed or based on the tree requirements.  For example avocados have a wide shallow root system so they get about 55 gal. pots.  If a roll is cost prohibited to ship I'd recommend the white fabric pots which happens to be one of the staff's favorite grow pots.  She lives in Alabama which gets quite hot in the summer.  The design requires less water and the white helps reflect the sun's rays.

Open up the photo of the Moro blood orange.  There's two white thick roots about 7:30 and 5:00 growing into the native soil.  Perimeter roots are almost none existent and there's no root spin out.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=7511.50

BTW, some of those trees are/were (had a hard freeze, heater malfunction) pruned to 10'.  Thanks to the freeze we recently processed at least 300 blood oranges, 50 Meyer lemons and put up some incredible batches of orange marmalade, gallons of juice, ice cubes, etc.  Hombre, if you've never done orange marmalade you are missing it.  ;)
 

Good luck!


Hi Mark! That marmalade looks really good amigo, I have orange trees here, Tarocco Rosso and Maltese, both close to Moro. I must try marmalade, here is quite popular bitter orange marmalade, but I do prefer sweet. I saw what happened to your greenhouse few weeks ago, sorry for that, but you found the best way to keep going :)

Regarding pots just today I planted one Maha mango into a 4 gallons airpot. I really don't need to make such an amazing setting like yours (your fruit porn thread is in my bookmarks ;)) because my trees will grow outside. What I'm interested in is developing a very good root system before planting them in their definitive spot. For that I can use the cooper painting and save some water, which here is expensive and scarce (we are facing the second consecutive year of drought, and I'm afraid that 2018 is going to be way worse than 2017). I have plenty of plastic pots already that I gonna paint and reuse. Those fabric pots though seem really interesting and they are much cheaper than air-pots. Do they do a similar effect on root system than airpots and cooper?

the $1 dolla-store has several sizes of containers
i use a knife and punch holes in the side.
(wiggle the knife a bit to open it up)
ive had great success with this.
if you need 1 or 2 containers and have the $%, get root-pruning pots,
but, i needed lots, this was much cheaper.

i have a couple of fabric containers,
and for some reason they stay damp and get moldy.
i am always sitting them in the sun, on top of something
to let them dry.
maybe this is good for Jabos in the summer...




Thanks for the tip. A friend of mine told me that plastic fruit boxes also work great as air-pots. Problem is the waste of water. By using copper paint I can keep my watering rate and keep my water bill under tolerable levels :)

Bottom paints for boats are available in almost countries.  The copper bottom paints eliminate algae and other marine growths. Lots of different versions and could be found in a ship store or other port facilities.


Yes, you're right I found that kind of paint here, the trades I found are quite expensive though, between 42 and 55 dollars 0.20 gallons. For that money I can make more copper paint that I gonna need in many years. Anyway it would be interesting to know if anybody tried this paint for fruit trees and got good results.





« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:17:22 PM by Jose Spain »
Jose

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 03:13:52 PM »
Now some basic numbers here. In metric system the proportions that appear in the thread linked by Mark are 200gr of 50% Copper(II) hydroxide for one litre of painting (26 oz per Gal). But what I have is 50% Copper oxychloride. Since the last has 2 atoms of Cu per molecule Cu2(OH)3Cl while the first has one [Cu(OH2)6]2 and what matters here is the copper, I suppose that maybe 100gr of oxychlorid will give us a similar result than 200 gr of hidroxide. Any thoughts/suggestions?

Copper (II) hydroxide:




Copper oxychloride:



« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 04:15:47 AM by Jose Spain »
Jose

Ulfr

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2018, 11:14:06 PM »
Cu(OH)2 is 97.3g/mole/Cu (grams per mole per copper)

Cu2(OH)3Cl is 213.5g/mole or divide by two for 106.75 g/mole/Cu.

Pretty close really, you would need about 109.7g of the Cu2(OH)3Cl to get the same amount of copper as 100g of Cu(OH)2 if you had pure substances.

You have 50% solutions (I assume by mass) and so in place of the 200g of 50% Cu(OH)2 you would need 219.4g of 50% Cu2(OH)3Cl.

Disclaimer: Please check my maths and just use this as a starting point not advice haha.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 11:53:00 PM by Ulfr »

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 04:58:10 AM »
Cu(OH)2 is 97.3g/mole/Cu (grams per mole per copper)

Cu2(OH)3Cl is 213.5g/mole or divide by two for 106.75 g/mole/Cu.

Pretty close really, you would need about 109.7g of the Cu2(OH)3Cl to get the same amount of copper as 100g of Cu(OH)2 if you had pure substances.

You have 50% solutions (I assume by mass) and so in place of the 200g of 50% Cu(OH)2 you would need 219.4g of 50% Cu2(OH)3Cl.

Disclaimer: Please check my maths and just use this as a starting point not advice haha.

Thank you Ulfr! I'll use that quantities and report results in this thread ;) I bought already 5 litres of latex vinyl painting and 550gr of oxyclorure. I will dilute the latex paint first probably.
Jose

Mark in Texas

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 07:21:36 AM »
What I'm interested in is developing a very good root system before planting them in their definitive spot. For that I can use the cooper painting and save some water, which here is expensive and scarce (we are facing the second consecutive year of drought, and I'm afraid that 2018 is going to be way worse than 2017). I have plenty of plastic pots already that I gonna paint and reuse. Those fabric pots though seem really interesting and they are much cheaper than air-pots. Do they do a similar effect on root system than airpots and cooper?

Yes, both systems will root prune.  Glad you like the thread, thanks!

You asked for alternatives, if they're going into the ground you may not want or need to root prune first.  Let me save you some grief.  Have the hole ready, pop the root ball out, set it on a table and using a very sharp knife make 4 vertical cuts top to bottom about 2 cms. deep concentrating on cutting thru any spin out at the very bottom.  Plant.  This will insure there's no root spinout and will induce the same kind of root lateral branching as the other systems.  Best of all, it's easy peasy.  If you're in clay soil DO NOT amend the backfill.  Return the original soil back into the hole.

Another caveat, the tree coming out of the copper treated pot will tend to be stunted for a while regarding root growth.  There is a residual effect from the copper ions.  Brushing off the rootball's perimeter soil helps.  Again, I'd just go with my first recommendation.  I have literally planted 10,000 or so trees over the years (Choose and cut Xmas tree op) and it always works.

Yeah, we're in a severe drought too.  What about rain water collection?  It's a great way to go!

Good luck,
Mark
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 07:33:01 AM by Mark in Texas »

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2018, 02:51:49 PM »
What I'm interested in is developing a very good root system before planting them in their definitive spot. For that I can use the cooper painting and save some water, which here is expensive and scarce (we are facing the second consecutive year of drought, and I'm afraid that 2018 is going to be way worse than 2017). I have plenty of plastic pots already that I gonna paint and reuse. Those fabric pots though seem really interesting and they are much cheaper than air-pots. Do they do a similar effect on root system than airpots and cooper?

Yes, both systems will root prune.  Glad you like the thread, thanks!

You asked for alternatives, if they're going into the ground you may not want or need to root prune first.  Let me save you some grief.  Have the hole ready, pop the root ball out, set it on a table and using a very sharp knife make 4 vertical cuts top to bottom about 2 cms. deep concentrating on cutting thru any spin out at the very bottom.  Plant.  This will insure there's no root spinout and will induce the same kind of root lateral branching as the other systems.  Best of all, it's easy peasy.  Another caveat, the tree coming out of the copper treated pot will tend to be stunted for a while regarding root growth.  There is a residual effect from the copper ions.  Brushing off the rootball's perimeter soil helps.  Again, I'd just go with my first recommendation.  I have literally planted 10,000 or so trees over the years (Choose and cut Xmas tree op) and it always works.

Thanks for the tips Mark!! I really appreciate them. In my case there are some rootstocks that will go into a pot for grafting this year, so I'll try to avoid problems by using the paint method (for example this week I have to plant in pots 12 dwarf plums rootstocks that I received today from UK).

If you're in clay soil DO NOT amend the backfill.  Return the original soil back into the hole.

Yeah, we're in a severe drought too.  What about rain water collection?  It's a great way to go!

Good luck,
Mark

About clay, this is really interesting, I didn't know. I do have clay in my garden, but in my case it's not that simple, upper horizon is clay but lower horizon is sandy and it drains very well. What's the reason to don't amend soil in this case? Drain problems, "pot effect" or another reason/s?

I'm planning to install two fiberglass deposits to gather rain water from my roof. Here I usually get around 700-800 mm a year, but usually not a single drop when most needed (summer).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 02:55:59 PM by Jose Spain »
Jose

Mark in Texas

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 12:33:29 PM »
Pot effect, meaning a non draining clay hole.  If the sand is not too far down and you can punch thru it with a post hole digger, this is all a moot point about the backfill.  Fracture the sides of the clay hole with a pick ax, breaker bar, etc.

 

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