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Author Topic: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint  (Read 1421 times)

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 02:58:56 PM »
From what Ive read, the current recommendation is not to amend the backfill when planting perennials because of this pot effect where drainage is an issue but also it creates a differential between the enriched backfill and the native soil, where the roots do not venture out into the native soil.

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2018, 03:24:08 AM »
From what Ive read, the current recommendation is not to amend the backfill when planting perennials because of this pot effect where drainage is an issue but also it creates a differential between the enriched backfill and the native soil, where the roots do not venture out into the native soil.

Yes, that's what I understood also, the draining problem explained by Mark makes a lot of sense now that I think of it. A hole filled with good, absorbent soil becomes a "cup" when surrounded by clay. In my case, since clay is just about the first foot/ foot and a half of soil, I never had any problem with my soil draining even when amending with other substrates. But the roots not venturing into the clay would probably be an issue to consider; if it just affects the size of the tree, actually could be more an advantage for me, since I'm running out of space. Anyway I'm mulching heavily my trees, so in the long term they will probably develop most of their roots through the upper, rich new lay of soil. I will have all this useful information in mind when planting my next trees. Thank you both for it.  ;)
Jose

Mark in Texas

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2018, 07:06:41 AM »
From what Ive read, the current recommendation is not to amend the backfill when planting perennials because of this pot effect where drainage is an issue but also it creates a differential between the enriched backfill and the native soil, where the roots do not venture out into the native soil.

That is correct.   Roots will spin out in the "clay pot", a drenching storm will come along and down the 10' tree goes.  Seen it first hand in heavy black clay.

The good doctor says it better than I can: https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments.pdf

In the field and around the house I prepped my planting holes, vineyard too, with a 3 pt. subsoiler that with several passes (took me 8 on the vineyard) can eventually be dropped to 2' deep.  The roots love the fractures, explore the native soil and just explode in growth.  Heavy red clay loam too where the chunks come up boulder size.  :D


« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:10:00 AM by Mark in Texas »

KarenRei

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2018, 11:27:12 AM »
I happen to have some copper sulfate on-hand.  Anyone see any reason why copper sulfate in latex paint wouldn't work in basically the same manner as copper hydroxide?
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Chandramohan

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2018, 11:33:57 AM »
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2018, 01:07:52 PM »
Mark - thats the same idea as a broadfork, yeah?
Did you do that prior to digging holes and planting I guess? How far out from planting site did you go with it?



KarenRei

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2018, 01:45:58 PM »
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 01:56:50 PM by KarenRei »
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Ulfr

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2018, 04:02:52 PM »
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

All three Compunds mentioned by Jose are insoluble ;)

Regarding the plan to precipitate out Cu(OH)2 keep in mind the Zn(OH)2 is only slightly soluble itself so you would need to use an acid or base to dissolve it first. Its doable but probably not worth the effort if you can find one of the mentioned insoluble Cu compounds locally.

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2018, 04:04:21 PM »
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

Would not be easier for you to get some Copper oxyclorure? It's the most common copper fungicide here in Europe.
Jose

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2018, 04:06:38 PM »
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

All three Compunds mentioned by Jose are insoluble ;)


The Oxyclorure I bought is special to be disolved with water, did I buy the wrong one?  ::)
Jose

Ulfr

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2018, 04:21:36 PM »
Depends what it is? Cu2(OH)3Cl Is insoluble. Is there an acid with it? Or is it just meant to be mixed with water to make a suspension (think cloudy/tiny solid particles in water) rather than a solution? You would want the pure solid in a powder form I imagine. I havent made these, just helping with the chem :)

I have no experience with the products they sell sorry.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 04:23:11 PM by Ulfr »

KarenRei

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2018, 05:04:04 PM »
Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

Would not be easier for you to get some Copper oxyclorure? It's the most common copper fungicide here in Europe.

Not in Iceland it wouldn't  ;)

Seriously, just as an example: do you know the grand total number of pesticides I've found in all the garden centres here?  Guess.

The answer: two.  I'm not joking.  Both pyrethroids.  You can't even buy diatomaceous earth here.

I could buy things online, but shipping and customs costs would be quite high, and customs may give me trouble for shipping in chemicals.  I could buy them in the US when on vacation next, but I imagine that the TSA might read me the riot act for bringing in chemicals.  Shipping takes weeks regardless, and who knows when my next US vacation will be.  But I have copper sulphate and cement today  :)

The reaction seems to have gone pretty well (it was quite noticeably reacting).  One difficulty (vs. using sodium hydroxide, which I don't have onhand) is that calcium sulphate (plaster of paris / gypsum) can be - depending on the form - either well, or only poorly, soluble in water.  So I don't know how much I washed away during the filtration; I suspect some of it (possibly even most of it) is left behind.  Not like calcium sulphate should be a problem in the latex paint, it just means I should use more of the powder.  The key part is that I did 3-4 filtration/rinse cycles, so that should have gotten the vast majority of any water-soluble copper compounds out.  :)   I'm drying it now.

One nice advantage: the copper sulphate was large coarse crystals that I would have had to try to crush fine with a mortar and pestle.  The insoluble precipitate here is an extremely fine bluish "clay".

Trivia: one neat thing you can do with copper hydroxide is to dissolve it in ammonia; this makes Schweizer's reagent, which can dissolve cellulose  :)  You can then precipitate the cellulose out as a fine powder by adding acid.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 05:12:11 PM by KarenRei »
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Ulfr

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2018, 05:17:48 PM »
You are certainly determined haha!

Good work :)

KarenRei

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2018, 06:03:24 PM »
You are certainly determined haha!

Good work :)

I'll start out with trialing just one plant, of course  ;)  I have an excess of tamarillos, and one needs to be repotted, so it'll have to be my guinea pig!
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Chandramohan

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2018, 10:06:52 PM »
The bluish clayee Cu(OH)2 will in a day or two turn black to CuO., which will still do the job I believe. Any way best of luck.

Mark in Texas

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2018, 09:02:01 AM »
Mark - thats the same idea as a broadfork, yeah?
Did you do that prior to digging holes and planting I guess? How far out from planting site did you go with it?

On my farm I have fractured over a mile of rows for trees and grapevines and then run a tiller over it to break up the massive chunks.  Around the house about 60 spots got fractured in a criss cross pattern running the tractor maybe 30' each way but dropping the subsoiler about 6' from the spot.  Due to the angle of the chisel foot it drops into the soil fast.   Hard clay like mine takes several passes dropping the foot down a little each time or else the tractor spins out, and that's with 4WD engaged.  Also did the greenhouse before it was built, 3 rows.

Don't know what a broadfork is.  If is looks like mine, then it will work.

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2018, 11:48:18 AM »
Depends what it is? Cu2(OH)3Cl Is insoluble. Is there an acid with it? Or is it just meant to be mixed with water to make a suspension (think cloudy/tiny solid particles in water) rather than a solution? You would want the pure solid in a powder form I imagine. I havent made these, just helping with the chem :)

I have no experience with the products they sell sorry.

I think is like you said. I filled the bucket I use to make the mix with water and it was clear the day after, so it seems that got attached to the latex.

Copper sulphate is water soluble, and at the concentrations needed  for root pruning, if absorbed by the plant will kill it.

Hmm, I presumed that copper hydroxide was also soluble (and only kept from dissolving by the latex paint).  Apparently it's insoluble.  Okay, well there goes that idea  ;)  Unless I can dig up some sodium hydroxide somewhere to convert it...

Oh hey wait, I have some cement... calcium hydroxide should precipitate out zinc hydroxide....

Would not be easier for you to get some Copper oxyclorure? It's the most common copper fungicide here in Europe.

Not in Iceland it wouldn't  ;)

Seriously, just as an example: do you know the grand total number of pesticides I've found in all the garden centres here?  Guess.

The answer: two.  I'm not joking.  Both pyrethroids.  You can't even buy diatomaceous earth here.

I could buy things online, but shipping and customs costs would be quite high, and customs may give me trouble for shipping in chemicals.  I could buy them in the US when on vacation next, but I imagine that the TSA might read me the riot act for bringing in chemicals.  Shipping takes weeks regardless, and who knows when my next US vacation will be.  But I have copper sulphate and cement today  :)

The reaction seems to have gone pretty well (it was quite noticeably reacting).  One difficulty (vs. using sodium hydroxide, which I don't have onhand) is that calcium sulphate (plaster of paris / gypsum) can be - depending on the form - either well, or only poorly, soluble in water.  So I don't know how much I washed away during the filtration; I suspect some of it (possibly even most of it) is left behind.  Not like calcium sulphate should be a problem in the latex paint, it just means I should use more of the powder.  The key part is that I did 3-4 filtration/rinse cycles, so that should have gotten the vast majority of any water-soluble copper compounds out.  :)   I'm drying it now.

One nice advantage: the copper sulphate was large coarse crystals that I would have had to try to crush fine with a mortar and pestle.  The insoluble precipitate here is an extremely fine bluish "clay".

Trivia: one neat thing you can do with copper hydroxide is to dissolve it in ammonia; this makes Schweizer's reagent, which can dissolve cellulose  :)  You can then precipitate the cellulose out as a fine powder by adding acid.

Didn't expect that getting gardening stuff could be so difficult in Iceland. Good luck with your experiment. I will keep you updated on how works mine. With all this chemistry formulas,  blue crystals and so on, I'm thinking of renaming the thread to something like Breaking Bad Garden...  ;D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 12:51:56 PM by Jose Spain »
Jose

KarenRei

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2018, 12:12:01 PM »
Hahaha -  I can just imagine explaining that to the police... "No, I swear, I'm making an anti-root-binding paint!  And those grow lights are for tropical fruit trees, I promise!"  ;)
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Jose Spain

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Re: Alternatives to Copper(II) hydroxide for root pruning paint
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2018, 12:27:20 PM »
"Tropical fruits?? In Iceland??? Sure, explain that to the judge..."  ;D ;D ;D
Jose

 

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