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Author Topic: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness  (Read 2460 times)

SoCal2warm

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citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« on: March 24, 2018, 09:11:54 PM »
I've observed that citrus grown from seed seems to do better, showing apparently more cold hardiness and being able to survive compared to the grafted plant that died.
I've observed this with lemons and kumquats, and there's also the white grapefruit growing at the Chelsea Physic garden in London up against a protected corner which was originally raised from seed before being planted outside after many years.

This is an interesting observation because the vast majority of the time, when people attempt to plant citrus outside to see if it can survive where they're at, the citrus came from a nursery and is on grafted rootstock.

These observations are coming from zone 8, in the Pacific Northwest. I have no doubt these plants would do much better on Flying Dragon rootstock in colder climates. But here they seem to grow more vigorous and be less susceptible to losing leaves on their own roots. I've also had a few plants on Flying Dragon or citrange that had most of their stems turn brown and die back whereas the seed-grown ones were more resilient. My Satsuma mandarin on unknown rootstock (it's dwarf though) also has not done as well as another Satsuma grown from seed, despite the seedling starting out smaller.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2018, 02:16:24 PM »
in some cases I have made the same observations: crafted C. ichangensis (marked as very hard, crafted on PT) died in its first winter surrounded by C. ichangensis IVIA seedlings that survived. And this winter a PT crafted on PT died because of frost-cracked bark. I need not say that all PT on their roots (even the ones in pots) survived. On the other hand I did not have any problems with scions high crafted on PT. The ones that died were young crafts or crafts just above ground.

Radoslav

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2018, 09:20:00 AM »
It is not a question of cold hardiness. There is never a full simbiose between graft and rootstock, rootstock see graft as alien, tries to over grow it.
And in stress situation like drought, frost etc. grafted part is usually the one, who suffers the most.

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2018, 10:54:31 PM »
North Waco family's orange tree a miracle on 15th Street
by J.B. Smith, January 2013

A tree that Juana Delgado grew from the seed of a grocery store orange has become a miracle on 15th Street.

This month, Delgado’s family has harvested an estimated 600 oranges from the tree she planted 15 years ago when she moved into the Habitat for Humanity home near North 15th Street and Colcord Avenue.

In recent weeks, the family made big jugs of orange juice, shared fruit with passing vagrants and sent their children door-to-door to give away large bags of juicy oranges.

The tree has defied the conventional wisdom that oranges can't survive the Central Texas winter, when temperatures usually dip into the low 20s.
But the tree has soldiered on, even through a January 2010 cold snap when temperatures plummeted to 8 degrees.

"Many people said it’s not possible," Delgado said in Spanish. "I say, 'Come look. It's possible.'"
Mark Barnett, a McLennan County master gardener and a landscaper by trade, said he has seen many people try to grow citrus trees they bought from big box stores, but the trees usually freeze and die.

"It's very unusual for it to have survived that long without protection," he said. "We've had some extremely cold winters that should have killed it."
Delgado started the orange tree in a pot using a seed from an orange she bought at an H-E-B supermarket. Most table oranges are improved hybrid varieties and tend not to reproduce faithfully by seed, Barnett said.

But Delgado's oranges turned out sweet and flavorful. Delgado has been harvesting a few oranges a year during the last decade but got her first big harvest two winters ago: A basket and a box full. In the 2011 drought, she kept the tree alive by watering it but ended up with only three oranges that season.
This year, she hit the jackpot. Her children and grandchildren climbed ladders to pick the fruit and filled six boxes with about 100 oranges each.

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/north-waco-family-s-orange-tree-a-miracle-on-th/article_3928e5be-b811-52ef-8dee-465b5788e6ae.html


Waco, Texas, is in zone 8a, and is just a little south of Dallas.

Although in recent years the 8b zone has been moving north, first the southern half of Waco was reclassified into zone 8b, and now on the latest maps zone 8b has engulfed the entire city.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 11:10:16 PM by SoCal2warm »

Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2018, 12:51:59 AM »
Nice things happen to those who wait.  Great story. Thanks SC2W for thinking of us.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2018, 01:58:12 PM »
Reminds me of Juanita tangarine. The originial plant is said to have survived -18°C (?) but graftet Juanita's resistance to frost is far from that.


mikkel

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2018, 02:17:18 PM »

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/north-waco-family-s-orange-tree-a-miracle-on-th/article_3928e5be-b811-52ef-8dee-465b5788e6ae.html

We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact wemmons@wacotrib.com or call 254-757-5757 or 800-678-8742.

Someone can help?

mikkel

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2018, 02:18:39 PM »
solved.
Found it in Google Cache.

Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2018, 09:59:24 PM »
I once ask Dr. Malcolm Manners if citrus trees started from seed were more cold hardy that grafted trees.   Dr. Manners said no.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2018, 03:13:39 PM »
Dr Manner's estimation or result of scientific investigation?

Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2018, 09:52:16 PM »
Zitrusgaertner,  I can see you do not know of Dr. Malcolm Manners, or you would have never asked that question.  Dr.Manners  holds the Chair of Citrus Studies at Florida Southern Collage. He is one of the best known minds concerning citrus in the USA.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:56:34 PM by Millet »

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2018, 10:28:11 PM »
Sometimes what is regarded as common knowledge can be wrong though. Sometimes a specific experiment to answer that question has never been carried out, or only applies to specific situations (certain varieties, a certain climate zone).

Ilya11

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2018, 03:51:04 AM »
What I learned from my 25 years of experience of growing hardy citruses in a open ground- is to never generalize. I am sure that Dr. Manners will agree with me ;)
Different root/bud combinations are showing drastically variable responses to winter conditions. A seedling grown in situ with deep principal root has certainly an advantage over a plant grafted in a pot on a stock with shallow roots.
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lebmung

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 02:58:59 AM »
Gene plants express adaptability. What is happening over the years to a plants it incorporates is the DNA.  Natural mutations occurs so the plant can survive. Plants can't run for shelter like animals so they have only one choice adapt or die.
From my experience with kaffier lime, those that I grow from seeds show a large variety. Some do well and others don't.
The seedling grown in cold weather don't die as compared to trees grafted with a scion from Asia.
Also the grafts with the scion from the seedling don't die.
In my opinion it's not about the graft union so much, as to the adaptability of the plant.
A seedling exposed to cold weather over the years will express genes of cold resistance that will pass to the next generation. Of course this happens over the years.  Perhaps hundreds of years.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 03:11:19 AM by lebmung »

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 01:32:59 PM »
A seedling exposed to cold weather over the years will express genes of cold resistance that will pass to the next generation. Of course this happens over the years.  Perhaps hundreds of years.
That's not really true (or possibly I am just misunderstanding your statement, if it was a poor translation). The theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics (Lamarckism) has been largely disproven since the theory of Evolution and by modern genetic understanding.

Sometimes a seedling will exhibit more cold hardiness than its parents. That's what can sometimes happen when the genes get mixed around.
This would be a zygotic seedling, of course, since nucellar seeds have the same exact genetic composition as the fruit parent, except in rare cases of seed/pollen mutations.

One well-known example that comes to mind is Juanita tangerine, grown from seed which came from an ordinary supermarket-bought mandarin.

Over a long timespan, if a species is continually propagated from seed over several successive generations, there can be some level of adaptation if the progeny that are better adapted have a higher rate of survival or reproductive propagation.

So genetics is another factor that can sometimes cause seed-grown offspring to be a little bit cold-hardier than their parents.

shah8

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2018, 04:01:30 AM »
Lamarkism, to a limited degree, and on the smaller scale, is a definite valid theoretical foundation for inheritance.

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2018, 03:38:22 AM »
Lamarkism, to a limited degree, and on the smaller scale, is a definite valid theoretical foundation for inheritance.
To an extremely limited extent, and it's not entirely clear whether that is the case with citrus, so that is really beside the point.

(Of course science has validated a little bit of truth to Lamarkism, like activation or deactivation of certain genes, and methylation of DNA bases, but I did not want to mention that and overcomplicate things, I think it's pretty doubtful citrus is going to be able to pass down its cold-hardiness gene expression adaptations to its nucellar seed)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 03:40:53 AM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 02:50:22 PM »
Lemon tree grown from seed survives left outside in a large container over the Winter in Tennessee
http://growingthehomegarden.com/2010/07/lemon-tree-in-tennessee.html

He grew the lemon for 13 years before leaving it out outside on his porch. He says he is in zone 6b.
 There's a picture of the tree, it looks healthy and about 3 or 4 feet tall.

He also says in a later comment that his porch is on the North side of his house, and gets no sun in the Winter.

"Every winter the last three years we've seen a -10 temperature appear on the thermometer multiple times. The measurements were actually taken near the house which may be a little warmer than farther out in the yard. We definitely get cold here!"
(that would be degrees Fahrenheit)

Another anonymous commenter also left this comment: "I have a Lemon tree that has lived outside for 3 years with Lemons on it now. I live in Tn." (Tennessee)


« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 03:04:06 PM by SoCal2warm »

Ilya11

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2018, 08:40:00 AM »
Lamarkism, to a limited degree, and on the smaller scale, is a definite valid theoretical foundation for inheritance.
To an extremely limited extent, and it's not entirely clear whether that is the case with citrus, so that is really beside the point.

(Of course science has validated a little bit of truth to Lamarkism, like activation or deactivation of certain genes, and methylation of DNA bases, but I did not want to mention that and overcomplicate things, I think it's pretty doubtful citrus is going to be able to pass down its cold-hardiness gene expression adaptations to its nucellar seed)

Very superficial statement. In plants both somatoclonal variation ( due to mutations arising and darwinistically selected in individual cells of multicellular organism) as well as environmentally induced epigenetic modifications can be transmitted to  to clones or  maintained in zygotic seedlings.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2018, 11:58:41 AM »
In plants both somatoclonal variation ( due to mutations arising and darwinistically selected in individual cells of multicellular organism) as well as environmentally induced epigenetic modifications can be transmitted to  to clones or  maintained in zygotic seedlings.
That's very fascinating but I haven't seen much evidence of this (epigenetic modifications passed to clones or seedlings.

Ilya11

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2018, 12:57:14 PM »
That's very fascinating but I haven't seen much evidence of this (epigenetic modifications passed to clones or seedlings.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lebmung

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2018, 05:04:29 PM »
A seedling exposed to cold weather over the years will express genes of cold resistance that will pass to the next generation. Of course this happens over the years.  Perhaps hundreds of years.
That's not really true (or possibly I am just misunderstanding your statement, if it was a poor translation). The theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics (Lamarckism) has been largely disproven since the theory of Evolution and by modern genetic understanding.

Better said a seedling exposed to cold starts to acclimatize with time, those traits will be passed down to the next generation. Adaptability: plants can't run when cold comes like animals do.

 

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