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Author Topic: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness  (Read 4027 times)

lavender87

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2018, 10:37:00 PM »
Better said a seedling exposed to cold starts to acclimatize with time, those traits will be passed down to the next generation. Adaptability: plants can't run when cold comes like animals do.

  I agreed. Plants did pass down cold resistent gene to the next generation, but the natural mutation happened randomly in a few seeds of some fruits and unfortunately most of the seeds landed in the trash can or seedling die under heavily shaded area.

  In the wild, when weather zone shift suddently, plants will try their best to adapt to the new environment as well as wake up some silent gene to pass down to the next generation; however, most of the seedlings (offsprings) will die, and only a few seedlings with a more adaptable gene will survive to the new environment.

  It is nearly impossible to tell which fruits contain the evolved seeds. I wish we could select those evolved seeds to improve the line then it would be much quicker to create a type of tree with delicious fruits and much more cold hardy.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 10:48:21 PM by lavender87 »

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2018, 10:40:53 PM »
I'm not very confident even the rare seedling will show much more cold hardiness than its parents.

(Unless that seedling originated from a heterogenous hybrid involving cold hardy hardy cultivars)

lavender87

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2018, 10:50:42 PM »
I'm not very confident even the rare seedling will show much more cold hardiness than its parents.

(Unless that seedling originated from a heterogenous hybrid involving cold hardy hardy cultivars)

   As I said, we were impossible to select the correct evolved seeds because not all the seeds from a crop would have equal chance to germinate and to prove itself as a worthy one.

   Hybridizing is the only reliable way to improve the quality at this time; however, even inside those fruits from hybrid trees there were self mutated seeds with the quality we wanted, but those rare evolved seeds again might have landed in our trash can.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 10:57:07 PM by lavender87 »

Ilya11

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2018, 12:05:50 PM »
Most of trifoliate orange rootstocks used were created from cuttings and of course they were much weaker than trifoliate orange roostocks which were grown from seeds. That might explained pretty well why even grafted citrus trees on trifoliate rootstocks from nursery were usually less cold hardy than the one grown from their own seeds.

  Trifoliate orange is a very slow-grow species, so it is much quicker to multiply by cutting branches from a matured tree than germinating seeds; and that is why people rarely used trifoliate rootstocks from seeds.
Are you sure that this a case for poncirus trifoliata, not for its hybrids like citranges and especially for citrandarins?
Poncirus is rather difficult to root, at least in Europe it is mostly propagated by seeds. Its seedlings are rather vigorous, in my climate one season is enough to reach a size for grafting, with the exception of Flying Dragon that is slow and requires 2 to three years.
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Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2018, 01:03:07 PM »
One of the criteria for the acceptance of a rootstock cultivar is the amount of seed the fruit provides.  Almost all commercial root stocks are produced as seedlings and not a rooted plants.

Ilya11

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2018, 01:19:20 PM »
Millet,
Many valuable citrandarin rootstocks like US852 or Forner-Alcaide 5 are giving too many offtype zygotic seedlings and preferentially are multiplied by tissue culture or rooted cuttings.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 01:40:58 PM by Ilya11 »
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Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2018, 01:30:26 PM »
Ilya11, I realize that there is exceptions to the rule.  There are exceptions to every rule.  However, most rootstocks are grown from seed.   One of the disqualifications to whether a rootstock is accepted as a commercial variety is the amount of zygotic seedlings are produced. Citrandrin only produces a small percentage of nucellar plants.  Therefore it was discontinued as a root stock variety. As you wrote concerning Flying dragon, it is a very difficult root stock to root.   In the current days of HLB some new acceptance rules are, or will be considered I'm sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 03:41:39 PM by Millet »

lavender87

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2018, 02:47:46 PM »
Surprisingly, flying dragon branches can root if we collect cuttings at the right time of the year, by simply dipping them in a cup of water for 2-3 weeks. I did not try this method myself, but somebody tried and had great success.

  It is not hard to check whether a rootstock is from seeds or from cuttings. By checking the root of the grafted plant, try looking for the tap-root, if no taproot presents, in most cases the rootstock was from a cutting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 06:24:10 PM by lavender87 »

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2018, 04:21:06 PM »
Some PT-seedlings have taproots, others don't.

Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2018, 05:10:02 PM »
Zitrusgardner, is this true?  Which PT seedlings do not develop tap roots?  Long taproots is the normal  characteristic of seedlings.

Ilya11

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2018, 06:20:25 PM »
  It is not hard to check whether a rootstock is from seeds or from cuttings. By checking the root of the grafted plant, try looking for the tap-root, if no taproot presents, in most cases the rootstock was from a cutting.
Again not true, a tap root is often cut when seedling is transferred from ground to the pot, it is not providing particular advantage for the potted plants.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 06:22:54 PM by Ilya11 »
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Radoslav

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2019, 02:32:00 AM »
This discussion about pros and cons of trifoliata seedlings and rooted cuttings is quite hypothetical.
First of all as Ilya wrote, it is practically impossible to root wooden trifoliata cutting. I remember, that someone posted scientific work about it at old forum.
Secondly, I do not know a single nursery which produce trees for field use in citrus producing countries, which use poncirus trifoliata as rootstock.
Thirdly such nurseries, do not propagate so called "hardy cultivars" for zone 7.

As far as I know, only nurseries for hobby growers like Adavo use poncirus trifolita as rootstock for some "hardy" cultivars, (their standard rootstock for the most cultivars is rooted citrumelo cutting I think).

And I do not believe that rooted cutting is weaker than seedling. For citruses, which root well, like pummelos, the root ball is really strong and dense in the case of rooted cutting.

SoCal2warm

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2019, 02:43:34 PM »
And I do not believe that rooted cutting is weaker than seedling.
I'm not inclined to believe that either. (although who really knows?)
My purpose to starting this thread was not to say that there is a difference between grown from seed and rooted cuttings,
I was simply speculating on the effects of being grafted onto different rootstock. That's the discussion I was trying to focus on.

Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2019, 03:08:08 PM »
Radoslav, the Flying Dragon Nursery of Jacksonville, Florida  is another nursery that  uses flying dragon as their rootstock

Darkman

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2019, 12:51:18 AM »
Whether it does or not must be prefaced by the seasons highs and lows. I had a 15 year old seedling grapefruit tree. never had any cold issues till 2014. this tree was huge with a 14' base and nearly twenty foot tall. lows of 18 started its demise with defoliation and tip damage. borers killed it the following year.

My point is that it wasn't the 18 degrees, it was the lack of cold temperatures leading up to the 18. Lack of suitable temps to harden off the tree was the biggest problem. I will say that the tree would not of died if the borers had not attacked. They probably would not have attacked if not for the tip damage. In 2014 I  lost nine other trees to the freeze. No borers were involved in their death.






Millet

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Re: citrus grown from seed shows more cold hardiness
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2019, 03:05:15 PM »
Charles nice seeing you posting again.

 

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