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Author Topic: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?  (Read 4848 times)

simon_grow

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Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« on: March 26, 2018, 01:21:30 AM »
Cherimoyas/Atemoyas are one of my favorite fruit with their extremely sweet and fragrant velvety white flesh that has the perfect balance of pineapple like acidity to balance out the high sugar content. When I first saw a Cherimoya, it looked very alien to me and I had no clue about the deliciousness that hid beneath the green alien skin. Thankfully, my first taste of Cherimoya was from my friend who offered me a fruit from a tree his dad grew in their backyard and it was an excellent variety. He told me to wait a few days to let it ripen, which I did, and after one taste I was hooked for life. This was about thirty years ago.

Iíve been growing Cherimoyas ever since and recently began thinking about trying my hand at breeding Cherimoyas, maybe crossing them with Atemoyas.

Cherimoyas are so friggin delicious but also crazy expensive. Iíve watched the price of Cherimoyas slowly climb each year and good quality fruit are now going for around $7-12 per pound with about $8-10 a pound being average in my area. One of the reasons Cherimoyas( Atemoyas to a lesser extent) are so expensive is because many of the varieties need hand pollination in order to set reliable and nicely shaped crops.

Recently, while pondering the possibility of crossing a Lemon Zest Mango with a DOT Mango, I thought to myself what a pain in the ass it is to cross Mangos. With huge bloom panicles on Mangos and with pollinating insects busily collecting nectar and thus potentially contaminating virgin female flowers, I would have to emasculate hermie flowers, remove male flowers and bag virgin females in order to procure my starting material. At that moment, I thought to myself, the disadvantage of requiring hand pollination with Cherimoyas can be an advantage when it comes to breeding Cherimoyas.

Several years ago, Leo Manuel offered me a fruit from a Cherimoya x Atemoya cross. He simply called it #3 and it was easily one of the best Cherimoya like fruit I have ever tasted. The Fruit had a very sweet Rasberry like acidity, very reminiscent of the acidity from a regular Cherimoya but you can taste the tiny bit of Atemoya in there as well. The best thing about Leoís Fruit was that he gets fruit without hand pollination.

Iíve grown Cherimoyas from random seeds before and one of my seedlings produced awesome fruit. Unlike many other types of fruit( besides clones/polyembryonic) Iíve heard from others that they also got great tasting fruit from seedlings. This leads me to believe that the major traits that we( us Fruit snobs) are looking for such as good size, sweet taste and good acid balance are concentrated in a narrow gene pool which may indicate that breeding Cherimoyas and Annona hybrids may be worth the effort.

I began a short search and immediately found this article that talks about mapping the genetic diversity of Cherimoyas 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253804/

I also came upon this more interesting article regarding breeding strategies for Atemoyas and Cherimoyas which touches upon creating seedless fruit through utilization of polyploids to create seedless triploid, which I theorized in another thread, which was based on the process of creating seedless watermelons.
https://www.actahort.org/books/497/497_13.htm

Anyways, to make a long story longer, I am seriously contemplating some future breeding projects to focus on creating an excellent tasting fruit with lower seed count, high sugar, high acid and most importantly self pollinating. Leo Manuel already created something to this extent but Iím not going to settle and Iím thinking about crossing Leoís hybrid #3 with Dr. white, Pierce, El Bumpo or Orton. Maybe all 3?

Anybody have any good articles, suggestions or reasons why I shouldnít do it? Thanks in advance for any comments.

Simon

Edited to correct tetraploid to triploid
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 01:15:43 PM by simon_grow »

skhan

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2018, 02:41:31 PM »
In the States, it seems like the subtropical/tropical fruit arent going to get much love (government funding) due to simple geography (I would think).
I guess it's up to private individuals and companies to do this work.
You have my support!!! (as that is all I can offer now)

Whenever I get a plot of land I'd like to do the same.

Leafhoppers have been hurting my annona this year, it would be good to have some varieties that are resistant to some of these pests.
Khan's Edible Oasis
Yard as of Jan 2019

behlgarden

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2018, 06:25:36 PM »
Simon,  we are planning on a Pierce x Genova Red Illama and Pierce x Top Australian Atemoya.  Thera already has hybrid seeds from two years ago and seedling might fruit this year.  Given how good Pierce is, it should be the go-to for pollen. I heard you can pollinate Pierce with Illama but not the other way around.

fyliu

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2018, 08:17:49 PM »
This sounds cool. You can graft 10 or more seedling scions onto the same tree to evaluate the fruits later. Each rootstock tree could be made to hold one crossing experiment.

Ethan

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2018, 01:24:18 AM »
I'd be happy to do some taste testing for you Simon!

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2018, 09:31:45 AM »
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Behl, I canít wait to see what Thera gets from the crosses. Pierce is an excellent variety. One of my main objectives is to get trees that produce fruit without hand pollination.

Fang, that is my plan. We are doing this with Mango and Cherimoya seedlings. We plan on grafting multiple seedling scions onto a mature tree to test them and save space.

Ethan, just show up to one of the Cherimoya tastings and you can sample whatever we have.

Leoís Hybrid is already so good, itís hard to imagine it can get much better. Last year, the Fruit had very few seeds but this year, it had a bit more. Also, the skin of the fruit is bumpy and although I am not trying to create something for the commercial market, I would still like the fruit to have smooth skin so that there is less skin damage when transporting it tasting events or shipping to friends and family.

I feel that a 1 pound fruit is about perfect for personal consumption but it wouldnít hurt to have a fruit in the 2-3 pound range. For this, crossing with Dr White may be a good choice. Dr White also has an excellent flesh to seed ratio due to its exaggerated size.

Simon

ScottR

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2018, 10:59:24 AM »
This sounds like a wonderful experiment Simon, i wish you the best in this interesting effort! ;)

johnb51

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2018, 01:07:24 PM »
Yes, a worthwhile undertaking.  Looking forward to these new creations.  (Hoping they might grow in Florida!)
John

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2018, 01:32:52 PM »
Simon
That sounds good.  Iím involved in an anona breeding program but I would be willing to help with pollen from 5-6 species of anona.

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2018, 01:38:40 PM »
Thanks Scott and John, with the use of Leoís Hybrid #3 selection as one of the parents, I hope members in Florida will be able to grow it.

I wish I had more info on the taste of the Dream Atemoya or Cherimoya. If it has high acidity, low seed count and is self fruitful, I could use its genetics in my experimental crosses. IIRC, some people believe Dream is not a true Cherimoya but perhaps a Hybrid? I thought the leaf shape was a bit more pointy like an Atemoya or a hybrid but canít remember.

If i cross Leo hybrid #3 with a Dream, thereís a good chance of finding an offspring that has great Cherimoya taste(acidity) and be fruitful in Florida.

For my experimental cross, the flavor is very important. The thing I donít like about Atemoyas is their lack of acidity although some like Lisa can have great acidity. The benefit of Atemoya genetics is that they can be self fruitful.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 01:41:47 PM »
Simon
That sounds good.  Iím involved in an anona breeding program but I would be willing to help with pollen from 5-6 species of anona.

Thanks Frank,
I would have contacted you soon enough. You have one of the biggest Annona collections in town and I would love your input.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2018, 02:23:20 PM »
I grafted some cherimoya scions recently hoping to do the same thing here in Florida and maybe even find a cherimoya that will set a decent crop here. I will have to check my LM-3 branch when I get home and take special care of it. Dream seems to make smallish fruit and I haven't seen a well tendend, tipped, stripped and hand pollinated tree to really evaluate it's true potential. I'll pollinate mine this year but there are so many different grafts on it that it wont be a great reading on it's potential.

I just ate my first La Habra Sun this morning and it was still good tasting even though it was a late winter fruit and I recently pruned the tree and stripped the leaves. It definitely beat the crap out of the insipid late fruit I was eating early this winter from a different tree that I let hold way too much fruit.
-Josh

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2018, 06:56:40 PM »
Here is a picture of the Leo hybrid #3 Fruit in case anyone missed the other thread. The fruit is very bumpy and has a Brix between 24-26% with excellent acid balance. To me personally, I donít care if itís a Cherimoya, Atemoya, Cherisop, Hybrid or whatever. I just really want the fruit to be self fruitful/self pollinating and for it to have excellent Cherimoya like acidity.

I just emailed Leo to see if he can give me additional background information on his Hybrid #3. I would really like to know what he used for the male and female.






Simon

Vernmented

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2018, 12:15:31 PM »
Nice! This is one of the more vigorous grafts on my tree. It is putting out flowers right now. I hit it with some fish/seaweed/keyplex micro foliar feeding and broadcast the whole yard with organic 4-3-4, potassium sulfate and sul-po-mag. I am ready for some night hand pollination and some fruit. :)

Here is a picture of the Leo hybrid #3 Fruit in case anyone missed the other thread. The fruit is very bumpy and has a Brix between 24-26% with excellent acid balance. To me personally, I donít care if itís a Cherimoya, Atemoya, Cherisop, Hybrid or whatever. I just really want the fruit to be self fruitful/self pollinating and for it to have excellent Cherimoya like acidity.

I just emailed Leo to see if he can give me additional background information on his Hybrid #3. I would really like to know what he used for the male and female.






Simon
-Josh

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2018, 06:29:53 PM »
Josh, I donít see the picture.

Here is an article on the effects of grafting on Annonas on diff scion/rootstock combinations
https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AS20120200013_71166332.pdf
Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 10:25:21 AM »
Hi Simon, i have 1 that always starts blooming in jan./feb. if you would like some material to try for early bloom you can pm me.                 Patrick

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2018, 10:33:26 AM »
Hi Simon, i have 1 that always starts blooming in jan./feb. if you would like some material to try for early bloom you can pm me.                 Patrick

fact that I observed with cherimoyas and atemoyas is that plant goes thru cycle. cycle in late spring when tree goes dormant and drops all leaves off. that is when pruning should occur and that is when nodes are exposed where leaves are shed. Also by this time temps are over 60 at nights and over 85-90 during days, allowing the flower to set fruits if pollinated. Anona in my yard does not set any fruits until June. I have tried strip leaves early method only to find flowers but fail to set anything. 

Does anyone else has observed this?

JF

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2018, 02:31:01 PM »
Behl is right. Atemoyas might set afew weeks earlier but the bulk of the fruits will set late June to July. Ilama, Custard Apple and soursop from August to October.

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2018, 09:31:46 PM »
Hi Simon, i have 1 that always starts blooming in jan./feb. if you would like some material to try for early bloom you can pm me.                 Patrick

Patrick, thanks for the offer, Iím still working on a plan for this breeding project.

Behl, Leoís Hybrid ripens around this time of year so itís probably similar to the flowering and fruiting pattern of other Atemoyas. I have a couple small grafts on my bigger tree in the back and Iím going to see if the season is different than Leoís season. I would love to gather more information on how ripening times are affected by location and rootstock.

Thanks for the confirmation Frank.

I visited Leoís place again and he said he created his Hybrid #3 by crossing African Pride with an unknown Cherimoya. I donít know which one was the male or female.

I would really like to do a side by side taste comparison of Leoís Hybrid #3 and the Dream Cherimoya/Atemoya.

Leoís Hybrid would make an excellent top graft on a dedicated tree or a multigraft tree. By putting the Leo Hybrid #3 as a top, you will get fruit on the top canopy where you normally wonít be able to reach to perform cross pollination.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2018, 09:53:23 PM »
Pinks mammoth atemoyas were grown from seeds since the 1890's in Australia and no doubt many decades before in French Guyana. While now they are grafted they grow pretty true to type.Paxton prolific and Hillary white are bud sport offspring and it seems this is the premium atemoya genetic line.Crossing to good red ilama and the best sugar apples might be worthwhile. For that matter crossing red ilama and the best coloured sugar apples or big eyes might produce something good if they are compatible.

Mike T

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2018, 10:09:36 PM »
I might just remind people about mammoth atemoyas. They are one of the sweetest, ugliest and mis-shapen atemoyas and are almost seedless and it is the oldest type of atemoya.


A 5lb specimen is nothing special but inside is what really counts.



simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2018, 12:32:45 AM »
Mike, thanks for the information! I am a novice when it comes to Annonas, are Mamouths, Pa ton Prolific or Hillary White acidic like a Cherimoya? I wonder if we have these in SoCal yet.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2018, 05:30:33 AM »
Hilary White - is the best strain of Pink's Mammoth. It has smoother skin and an excellent cropping performance. The fruit is sweet and aromatic.
African Pride - This heart-shaped fruit has a medium thick skin, more seed than the Pink's Mammoth and produces high yields. The early and consistent bearing behaviour, presentable fruit and early maturing is what makes this the main commercial variety.
Late Gold - A stunning golden-bronze fruit with soft skin and a high flesh ratio. Good-sized fruit. Proving to be an excellent performer in the Northern Rivers.
Pink's Mammoth - has the delicious and melting taste of the sugar apple which makes it one of the most popular of the custard apples. As the name suggests the virtually seedless fruit is one of the largest. Top marks for quality, however a lower yield than the African Pride.
Geffner - is an Israeli cultivar with a moderate to heavy cropping capacity. The flavour is exceptionally good and although it performs well it's not superior to the African Pride.
Ht 7; Fr Med; Pol Yes; Semi-decid; H July to Sept.
Above is a typical assessment of the common commercial varieties in Australia from about 35 years ago.Of course there are new varieties now.Hillary and Paxton are sweet and not really acidic at all.

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2018, 11:36:36 AM »
Mike, thanks for saving me the time looking up all those varieties. I would love to breed the near seedlessness of the pinks Mammoth into the progeny of these experiments. One thing I definitely want to keep in these fruit is the acidity that I feel Sugar apples and many Atemoya lack.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2018, 01:10:30 PM »
I finally got some time off to look after my plants and just took a picture of one of the crosses Behl mentioned and the only survivor :(( It's a PM x Israel Red. The "PM" was from Oscar's scions and I think it's just an AP, not the real deal. The Israel Red was from JF who I believe got the scions from a pal in Spain or Portugal.
This seedling tree has just started to give out a few flowers. However, I don't really have high hope on the outcome as crosses between atemoyas are highly unpredictable. I'd prefer a Atemoya x Sugar Apple or Atemoya x Cherimoya.


Thera

 

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