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Author Topic: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?  (Read 3367 times)

PrincessTigerLily

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2018, 01:33:15 PM »
Wow! That's a beautiful looking plant Thera! How old is the plant?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 01:44:18 PM by PrincessTigerLily »

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2018, 07:55:35 PM »
Cherimoyas and Atemoyas are flowering now so I decided to go ahead and perform a few crosses. For the Annona hybrids, I crossed Leo Hybrid #3 with Dr White and also Pierce. To do this, I took pollen from Dr White and fully pollinated the newly opened Leo Hybrid #3 flower in the female stage using a new pollinating brush and a new pollen container.

By fully pollinating, I mean that I completely covered the brush with pollen and pollinated twice to ensure complete pollinization. This is important because Leo Hybrid #3 can be self fruitful so I need to ensure all the ovaries were pollinated with my pollen of choice so that it wonít self. I also did this as soon as the flower opened in the female stage in order to avoid cross pollination from wind and insects. New pollen containers and brushes are also important in order to avoid cross contamination. I repeated this procedure with Pierce.

That was the first cross in which the female was the Leo Hybrid #3 but I also performed the reverse cross using the Leo Hybrid #3 for its pollen and cross pollinated Dr White and Pierce flowers in the female stage.

For my Cherimoya cross, I crossed Dr White Pollen with a Pierce flower in the female stage.

After pollinating the flowers, I did not bag the flowers because I felt no need after careful complete pollination but I did tag each flower so I know what is what.











Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2018, 11:37:38 PM »
Great Simon, keep us posted. I plan on pollinating top 3 atemoyas with Pierce, Helmut,  and Sabor once I get flowers in full swing. Let's experiment. Our seedlings fruit within 2 years or less.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:06:03 AM by behlgarden »

Mark in Texas

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2018, 08:04:26 AM »
Man, this just some crazy stuff!  Love it.  Count this here Texas cowboy in too.   Annona seeds are a PITA just like seedy citrus.  It would be nice to breed out some of their seediness.  I read a cherimoya fruit comparison where the gardener said Fino de Jefe had the lowest seed count of those trialed.  Don't remember all the varieties but one was Dr. White.

I have a Leo #3 seedling up.  I also have seedlings of African Pride X Campas doing real well.

Simon, incredible work.  Will this Leo come pretty much true?

Recently grafted what one Vietnamese friend calls "Giant Atis" sugar apple on a cherimoya seedling.  It's growing well. Once I get this in its new home would be happy to share wood.  Supposed to be excellent, and it's huge.  I have shared a few sticks with other Texas annona growers.





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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2018, 11:27:21 AM »
Nice work Simon, will be interesting to see the result's later on of your experiment  ;)
Mark, nice size s.a. very cool! I had some of my fino de jete this year come with only 4-6 seeds although they were on smaller side. While other's off same tree a few weeks ago were very seedy :o I've always just collected pollen when I find the time ( or make the time) from all my different varieties into one film canister an then pollinated any flowers that were ready, so I'm hybridizing with out trail of parentage and some cherimoya's have come out very good some years and so so other year's. I can't imagine trying to control pollination like Simon is doing that takes devotion , way to go Simon best of luck on your experiment. 8)

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2018, 09:44:33 PM »
Thanks everyone,

Mark, I honestly have no idea how close the seedlings of Leo Hybrid #3 will come true to the parent Fruit. If you need actual scions, Brad and I should have more next year.

I just sampled a Koochie Island Annona, I believe itís an Atemoya but not sure. The Fruit was over a pound and only had 6 seeds. This fruit was actually quite good but just lacked a bit of acidity although it did have some.

I want to find an Annona that will add the following characteristics to my cultivar Iím trying to create:
Self Fruitful
Fewer seeds
Good flavor/acidity that Atemoyas tend to lack
Size averaging minimum of 1 pound

Leos Hybrid #3 has not been tested long enough but itís the best thing I can find right now. The flavor is absolutely amazing but some fruit have very low seed counts and some fruit have higher seed counts. I also donít know if itís self fruitful at all locations. I hand pollinated my flowers for my experiments. Iíll tag a few flowers and not hand pollinate the flower to see if it sets fruit and also to see the seed count for unpollinated Fruit.

I would also like to use Australian varieties like Hilary White but I have never tasted the fruit before. I know HW can probably add size and fewer seeds but I donít want to take away from the flavor.

If anyone has the link to the thread that talked about  passing traits onto progeny based on wether the selected trait was from the pollen or the female, Iíd appreciate it.

Simon

Mark in Texas

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 08:53:57 AM »
Thanks for the info and best o luck. 

FWIW I have diluted pollen with flour to make it go farther.  I also stored it in the fridge.

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2018, 02:13:21 PM »
Simon, nice work.

It was my understanding that complete pollination results in high seed count and that a single dab with your brush results in the better fruit.
Since reduce seed count is one of your objectives can you do a normal pollination and bag one or two flowers as a control?
The goal being to see if the seed count can be discounted if you get a hit on your other metrics.

My opinions are from reviewing literature, I have never tried to create a new veriety but am following your work with great interest.  Hopeful you will develop a chirimoya tasting atemoya that fruits in Florida 😀

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2018, 04:31:19 PM »
Hey Orkine, thanks for the encouragement. Let me try to explain it a little better. I am purposefully trying to fully pollinate the female flowers because I want to avoid seeds that are selfed or cross pollinated with a variety other than what Iím trying to breed.

If I just dab the female flowers, only half the ovaries will be pollinated with my selected pollen. The other 50% of the ovaries will be open to pollination by its own pollen or from pollen carried to it by wind or insects.

Now if I harvest this fruit, I wonít know which seeds were pollinated with my specially selected pollen and which seeds were pollinated with contaminated pollen.

If I fully pollinated the flower and all the ovaries with my selected pollen, the parking space would have been filled so even if contaminated pollen was introduced into the female flower, it was already pollinated, parking space is filled, so I can guarantee all the seeds are from my selected pollen.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2018, 05:23:21 PM »
To add to that, Cherimoya and Atemoya flowers in the female receptive stage are open for a very short window period before they become unreceptive. This is the reason why most Cherimoyas arenít self fruitful.

This is also the reason why I pollinated my flowers as soon as they open. I did not want insects contaminating the female flower before I got a chance to hand pollinate with my selected pollen.

Simon

SoCal2warm

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 01:23:53 AM »
I may be wrong about this, but it was my understanding that Atemoya originally came about from a cross between A. squamosa (Sugar Apple) and either Cherimoya or A. reticulata (Custard Apple).

CA Hockey

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2018, 02:58:37 AM »
I had a coochie island tree last year (that's how it was written on the pot so that's the spelling I'm sticking with). burnt in July and never grew back.

The nurseryman who sold it told me it was a cherimoya x atemoya hybrid. It was multigrafted with anothe hybrid - satin... something or other. That also died. The whole tree died all of a sudden. At the time I didn't know how sensitive to heat they could be. It was a very small multi-grafted tree.

-K

Thanks everyone,

Mark, I honestly have no idea how close the seedlings of Leo Hybrid #3 will come true to the parent Fruit. If you need actual scions, Brad and I should have more next year.

I just sampled a Koochie Island Annona, I believe itís an Atemoya but not sure. The Fruit was over a pound and only had 6 seeds. This fruit was actually quite good but just lacked a bit of acidity although it did have some.

I want to find an Annona that will add the following characteristics to my cultivar Iím trying to create:
Self Fruitful
Fewer seeds
Good flavor/acidity that Atemoyas tend to lack
Size averaging minimum of 1 pound

Leos Hybrid #3 has not been tested long enough but itís the best thing I can find right now. The flavor is absolutely amazing but some fruit have very low seed counts and some fruit have higher seed counts. I also donít know if itís self fruitful at all locations. I hand pollinated my flowers for my experiments. Iíll tag a few flowers and not hand pollinate the flower to see if it sets fruit and also to see the seed count for unpollinated Fruit.

I would also like to use Australian varieties like Hilary White but I have never tasted the fruit before. I know HW can probably add size and fewer seeds but I donít want to take away from the flavor.

If anyone has the link to the thread that talked about  passing traits onto progeny based on wether the selected trait was from the pollen or the female, Iíd appreciate it.

Simon

Samu

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2018, 03:23:46 AM »


Hi Simon, Iíve been reading this thread as of late and find it very interesting. Your photos with labels on the flowersí stalks caught my eye the other day, since I too, did some labeling starting this yearís flowering season. But, I donít have a well defined methodology, goals and ambitions nor the scientific background like you though, but simply put, I am just trying to get a better fruit with any combinations flower/pollen that I have on hand.

Since my 5 annona trees with multiple varieties scions on them are gotten a little bigger this year, thus giving me more pollens to work with, Iíve been doing some selective hand pollinations myself, that is:
1.pollinating the flowers of a variety with itís own variety pollens: hoping to produce the true fruits of such variety
2. pollinating the flowers of a variety with different variety pollens:
hoping to produce superior fruits of such combination. (and yes, I do the reversed procedure as well).

I label each pollinated flowerís stalks with my abbreviation letters showing the donorís  pollens origin. (I know the pollinated flowerís variety from where it is hanging at which branch).
So, yes, I have multiple pollen containers and individual separate brushes for them. And to help reduce some possible errors, I do this routine since the beginning of this yearís flowering season, (not enough flowers/pollens to play with last year) so hopefully I will have several fruits to compare; observe and to take notes/photos on from these varied combinations when harvesting time comes. 

Who knowsÖ, if such a variety combination in my yard can produce a new hybrid that is superior to that of itís original named variety, whether that be superiority in taste, size, form, color, skin; seed counts or Ö?
Thanks for sharing this annona breeding research Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!
Note: The varieties that Iíve been working on primarily are: African Pride, El Bumpo, Orton, Doctor White and ďAusie" Atemoya.

Thanks for sharing your annona breeding experiments Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!
Sam

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2018, 01:57:49 PM »
Here are some LM-3 fruits. They look different than your but Annonas a variable and I hand pollinated with a mix of different pollens.
-Josh

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2018, 07:31:48 PM »
Josh, those LM#3 look different from the Leo Manuel #3s Iím used to seeing but you are growing them in a different environment and the LM#3 is variable so you could have the real deal. I sent out a bunch of scions and seeds a year or two ago hoping to see how it performs in Florida so please keep us updated. Iím glad that it produces for you in Florida, now we just have to see how it tastes.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2018, 07:41:46 PM »
Here are some LM-3 fruits. They look different than your but Annonas a variable and I hand pollinated with a mix of different pollens.



Josh, I just checked the pictures I posted about the real Leo Hybrid #3 and all of them have the bumps from top to bottom. The fruit you posted pictures of appears to have the nipple like protrusions near the stem end but disappears midway through the Fruit. It could be due to the different environment itís growing in but I canít tell at this point.
See this thread.
http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=19336.0

These fruit were picked by Leo Manuel himself or by me with Leo standing next to me so they are the real deal.

I will go to Leos house and take more pictures of his crop for this year to see if any of his Fruit looks like yours.

Simon

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2018, 07:46:25 PM »


Hi Simon, Iíve been reading this thread as of late and find it very interesting. Your photos with labels on the flowersí stalks caught my eye the other day, since I too, did some labeling starting this yearís flowering season. But, I donít have a well defined methodology, goals and ambitions nor the scientific background like you though, but simply put, I am just trying to get a better fruit with any combinations flower/pollen that I have on hand.

Since my 5 annona trees with multiple varieties scions on them are gotten a little bigger this year, thus giving me more pollens to work with, Iíve been doing some selective hand pollinations myself, that is:
1.pollinating the flowers of a variety with itís own variety pollens: hoping to produce the true fruits of such variety
2. pollinating the flowers of a variety with different variety pollens:
hoping to produce superior fruits of such combination. (and yes, I do the reversed procedure as well).

I label each pollinated flowerís stalks with my abbreviation letters showing the donorís  pollens origin. (I know the pollinated flowerís variety from where it is hanging at which branch).
So, yes, I have multiple pollen containers and individual separate brushes for them. And to help reduce some possible errors, I do this routine since the beginning of this yearís flowering season, (not enough flowers/pollens to play with last year) so hopefully I will have several fruits to compare; observe and to take notes/photos on from these varied combinations when harvesting time comes. 

Who knowsÖ, if such a variety combination in my yard can produce a new hybrid that is superior to that of itís original named variety, whether that be superiority in taste, size, form, color, skin; seed counts or Ö?
Thanks for sharing this annona breeding research Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!
Note: The varieties that Iíve been working on primarily are: African Pride, El Bumpo, Orton, Doctor White and ďAusie" Atemoya.

Thanks for sharing your annona breeding experiments Simon, I know we can all benefit from your effort!

Sam, good stuff. I believe we can come up with something really good. I like the selection of varieties you are starting with.

Instead of growing out each tree to fruiting size, I recommend planting a mother tree. You then label each individual seedling with a name/number, keeping good track of what the paternal/maternal parents are. You then take scions from each seedling and multigraft you Mother tree with as many unique seedlings as you can get on it. Once a seedling Fruits, evaluate it for 1-3 years and if it sucks, chop it and replace with another seedling g selection.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2018, 07:48:49 PM »
Josh, your fruit resembles African pride a bit. Iím no Annona expert, maybe Frank can chime in if he sees this thread.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2018, 04:12:53 PM »

Sam, good stuff. I believe we can come up with something really good. I like the selection of varieties you are starting with.

Instead of growing out each tree to fruiting size, I recommend planting a mother tree. You then label each individual seedling with a name/number, keeping good track of what the paternal/maternal parents are. You then take scions from each seedling and multigraft you Mother tree with as many unique seedlings as you can get on it. Once a seedling Fruits, evaluate it for 1-3 years and if it sucks, chop it and replace with another seedling g selection.

Simon

Thanks Simon, for your concise guideline to follow for the next steps. I may proceed as your outline above, after knowing the hybrids fruits formed are superior to their parent(s).

I supposed the idea of planting a "Mother tree" is to speed up the fruiting process of those multiple hybrids scions and also for saving planting space? I wonder though that there still can be cross pollinations occurring amongst those hybrid scions grafted on the mother tree?
Still learning...
Sam

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2018, 04:16:24 PM »
Josh, your fruit resembles African pride a bit. Iím no Annona expert, maybe Frank can chime in if he sees this thread.

Simon

Simon those are source from a grower in Temecula that grows all of Leoís hybrids. He bought the trees from Leo.

simon_grow

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2018, 05:50:10 PM »
Thanks for the info Frank, the shape is very different but it could be the real deal. Iíll take pictures of my baby Leo#3 Hybrid Fruit in hopes that we can make identify what Josh has.

My friend gave me a fruit of some Atemoya or Annona hybrid that looks like the one Josh posted but he purchased it as an unnamed variety.

Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2018, 07:22:49 PM »
Vernmented, here is what my Leo #3 Hybrid Fruit looks like in the early stages of growth. They are not really mammilated at this young stage.

The little blue painters tape I used for tagging the Fruit work great in the early stages but as the Fruit expands, the tape can fall off. Now that theyíre about golf ball size, I wrote directly on the Fruit so I donít lose track of whatís what.





Simon

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2018, 04:07:37 AM »
Here is a link with regards to pollens and characteristics of fruit

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/42/7/1534.short

Vernmented

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2018, 07:31:24 AM »
Vernmented, here is what my Leo #3 Hybrid Fruit looks like in the early stages of growth. They are not really mammilated at this young stage.

The little blue painters tape I used for tagging the Fruit work great in the early stages but as the Fruit expands, the tape can fall off. Now that theyíre about golf ball size, I wrote directly on the Fruit so I donít lose track of whatís what.





Simon

Nice! Thank you. I love the way your LM-3 look. Great experiment. I will hopefully have some cherimoya flowers to play with next year.
-Josh

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Re: Breeding Cherimoyas/Atemoyas?
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2018, 02:06:18 PM »
Thanks everyone,

Mark, I honestly have no idea how close the seedlings of Leo Hybrid #3 will come true to the parent Fruit. If you need actual scions, Brad and I should have more next year.

I just sampled a Koochie Island Annona, I believe itís an Atemoya but not sure. The Fruit was over a pound and only had 6 seeds. This fruit was actually quite good but just lacked a bit of acidity although it did have some.

I want to find an Annona that will add the following characteristics to my cultivar Iím trying to create:
Self Fruitful
Fewer seeds
Good flavor/acidity that Atemoyas tend to lack
Size averaging minimum of 1 pound

Leos Hybrid #3 has not been tested long enough but itís the best thing I can find right now. The flavor is absolutely amazing but some fruit have very low seed counts and some fruit have higher seed counts. I also donít know if itís self fruitful at all locations. I hand pollinated my flowers for my experiments. Iíll tag a few flowers and not hand pollinate the flower to see if it sets fruit and also to see the seed count for unpollinated Fruit.

I would also like to use Australian varieties like Hilary White but I have never tasted the fruit before. I know HW can probably add size and fewer seeds but I donít want to take away from the flavor.

If anyone has the link to the thread that talked about  passing traits onto progeny based on wether the selected trait was from the pollen or the female, Iíd appreciate it.

Simon

can you tell me more about the Koochie island, i have one i planted last year, thinking of replacing it with either a pierce or fino de jete
getting there...

 

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