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Author Topic: fully soaking containers when watering  (Read 3228 times)

laidbackdood

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 01:17:06 PM »
Z willus....I wouldnt just water around the boundary.....water the whole of the top of the pot......so its evenly watered through out but i swear by putting the fert around the outside of the pot only......no good directly over the rootball......once roots start going mushy/brown and stale.......Its a hard road to recovery.........If you prune the roots back.......then you should prune the top back a bit as well and put in a smaller pot....pot should be 2-4 inches bigger than the rootball.......The plant will have less leaves to transpire and less rootball to suck things up......
              If you go down that root......I wouldnt be feeding it all ...until recovery is well under way and only then very very lightly.
I am waiting for my reed to recover and the mix has just started to dry out a bit now........this will be a slow process because the roots have remained wet for too long and are not active.......Dont try to push the tree....dont expose it to the heat of the day either.....it wont cope........give it morning sun........preferably keep it elevated so air can go underneath and no mulch to help it aerate.......no food.......you are going to have to leave it to recover in its own good time i reckon.....Good luck.

Millet

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 04:14:41 PM »
Recently I've been reading advice that when a container tree has a couple inches of the root ball cut and then the tree being put back into the same container, that trimming back the foliage is not necessary.  Also when I fertilize a tree I dissolve the fertilizer  and pure it over the entire surface of the root ball, so that the entire root ball is evenly whetted..

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2018, 12:51:34 PM »
I've finished amending the other five RBII encased Avocado trees with 1/2 Decomposed Granite from the local landscape supply.  I wonder about the relative water retention capabilities of this DG vs. other elements in my mix, such as Perlite, which I assume is much lower, Forest Humus, and Peat/Coco-hulls, which I assume are have higher water retention qualities.  Even after amending the soil with semi-moist DG (recent freak rain), I read nearly full "wet" on my two cheapo Soil moisture meters in all the pots.  I've left the mulch off, and I'll rough up the surface to try and encourage drying out and aeration.  I've never had so much to do about trying to keep soil dryer, it's always been the reverse.  It all makes me question that something else most basic must be wrong here.

On six of the seven trees, there was a clear ring of roots (mostly dead) at the old pot boundary.  I wonder if these were blocking off new root growth?  Normally when planting out, I will rip through these root spin-out to encourage new growth, but with these avocado trees, I went to great lengths actually cutting them out of their pots in place to try and not disturb the roots.  When amending the soil this time, I shredded all those knotty, dead roots -- took off the baby gloves.  I hope the trees can wake up, recover, and start to push out some vegetation.

If anyone else on the forum reading this has experienced anything similar with less than ideal/healthy 5G Avocado trees from the nursery at transplant, I'd love to hear your story and how it ended.
Thanks.

spaugh

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2018, 10:39:34 AM »
I always use my fingers and massage the roots on 5gal avocados when transplanting.  Just rough them up a bit and loosen them and break them a little.  If the tree was good size and root bound, you can hold the tree trunk up in one hand and tap down on the pot with the other and the pot will fall right off.  Then massage and plop in place.  Avocados are pretty tough plants, they dont need to be babied really.  You can let the containers get pretty dry before rewatering.
Brad Spaugh

pineislander

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2018, 06:59:35 PM »
I need a "scientific" or analytical way to assess the situation. 
If you want a real idea about soil moisture they make instruments to measure that.

Millet

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2018, 11:21:27 AM »
After a person has grown container plants for a while they can easily tell how much water remains in the medium by simply lifting the container.

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2018, 12:51:38 PM »
Unless the container weighs 200+lb dry.  Honestly, I don't think I have any misapprehensions about how wet the soil is in these containers.  There's just something off with the plants.  I hope they can recover to the pointer where the problem becomes how to supply enough water to meet their needs instead of how to keep the soil dry enough that the already dead and rotting roots don't die back more.  I"m really eager to see how these RootBuilderII containers do in a series of scenarios.  I don't think they're to blame for any of the problems I"ve been having with these young avocado trees.  I now have:
- 5 Avocados in 5 panel RBII containers with double stacked weed barrier beneath
- 2 Avocados in 6 panel RBII containers with their bottom removed on top of 3' deep raised bed. 
- 2 Avocados in 4 panel RBII containers with a plastic kiddy pool for a bottom
- 1 "Wonderful" Pomegranate that I got from Costco in a 5 panel RBII container

All containers are now a mix of 1/2 DG and 1/2 nearly equal parts: Peat/Cocohulls, Perlite, Forest Hummus -- with some organics like homemade worm-castings.

Having deconstruct-able  containers has come in really handy, and I've already expanded one container from 4 to 5 when I realized the Pomegranate wasn't going to fit in a 4-panel.

Bush2Beach

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2018, 11:44:41 PM »
Avocado roots don't like being disturbed or super saturated DG soil in my experience. Your soil Mixture is probably off.

laidbackdood

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2018, 10:32:42 AM »
I dont go for organics in pots in a hurry either...except ferts.......if you mix in compost or place it on top of the mix....it tends to clog the air spaces in the mix which encourages the mix to stay wet.

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2018, 11:15:37 AM »
I didn't have any "organics" other than some worm-casting cast on top (below the mulch layer) and some espoma fertilizer that I mixed in for the micros.

I thought DG, particularly the one I used which is quite sandy, would help to "dry up" the mix I had, which was before heavy in Peat and Coco-hulls.  There is a good 1/4 part Perlite in the mix.  It actually seems quite airy.

My thought is that in general these plants were already in poor shape, as evidenced by the dark/dead roots that in most cases encased them when pulled from their 5G pots.  I originally left these roots untouched, but in doing so, left a boundary of hardened, rotten roots that blocked off new lateral root growth.  Since the bottoms of the containers are blocked off, downward growth is not a possibility, so what healthy roots the trees had were somewhat trapped.

When I went back in last week and amended the soil with 1/2 part DG/sand, I shredded and partially removed the dead and rotted roots, but this also damaged some of the living roots that lie beneath those.  I'm sure that's set the plants back anew, but I think in the long run, it was necessary.  I think the reason the mix remains so wet is because it's yet not too hot here (that will change soon), and the trees just aren't sucking out any water as of yet in their sad and tired rooting state.  If the roots can recover, I expect I'll start to have the opposite problem once we get in to the 100-110F temps of June, July, Aug, Sep. here.  I just hope the trees can wake up by then, otherwise I fear they are doomed.

Appreciate all the thoughts and tips.

laidbackdood

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2018, 11:26:32 AM »
Sounds tough......irrigation is relative to the time of year...........I think you have done the right thing and they just need time to recover ......when planted in the ground they quite often plant them in raised beds with leaves and loose stuff....so the roots can dry..............I reckon let it dry out big time and give it some sun but not strong sun..............let it dry nicely....to at least medium on your meter......then get the hydrogen peroxide and add that to your water in a watering can.......leave for 10 mins......It can revive a knackered tree mate because it purifies the water and adds oxygen to the mix........Growth will be slow for now but spring time and warmer temps......do that and it could all go off.........Those roots need to be creamy white/tan before you can expect joy from the top......Get your roots happy and she will recover........do a google search on hydrogen peroxide for trees with wet feet.   3% 6% .....20% and food grade.

Bush2Beach

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2018, 12:34:24 PM »
You could start direct seeding some rootstock Seeds into the ground now, to graft next spring. It's going to be tough , if not impossible to turn them around as described , in my experience. Instead of nursing along sick plants ,  or along with,  get some more rootstock going so you could graft your sickly varieties on there , or get more scion to graft.
Shade them from Midday sun right now. Good luck.

laidbackdood

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2018, 07:19:01 AM »
Have to agree with bush....shes a hard road back to recovery when half the roots have gone........dont give up on them....you never know but id say learn from it and buy a new healthy tree and dont add anything that hangs onto water........I use potting mixes devoid of water storage crystals and we have 40 plus C here....I use a barky mix.....you could add perlite to aerate it and that holds water and nutrients as well....Avo's are notoriously fussy for wet feet matey....Good luck.
p.s I bought some hydrogen peroxide 6% today.

containerman

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2018, 10:10:24 AM »
z willus

See my post in this thread. You don't live that far from me I'm in modesto area with the same zone 9b and weather as you. Take a look here at my post and let me know if you want to talk and you can even see my yard if you want. I would love to help if I can.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=28230.0
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 11:00:57 AM by containerman »

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2018, 08:25:28 PM »
Sounds tough......irrigation is relative to the time of year...........I think you have done the right thing and they just need time to recover ......when planted in the ground they quite often plant them in raised beds with leaves and loose stuff....so the roots can dry..............I reckon let it dry out big time and give it some sun but not strong sun..............let it dry nicely....to at least medium on your meter......then get the hydrogen peroxide and add that to your water in a watering can.......leave for 10 mins......It can revive a knackered tree mate because it purifies the water and adds oxygen to the mix........Growth will be slow for now but spring time and warmer temps......do that and it could all go off.........Those roots need to be creamy white/tan before you can expect joy from the top......Get your roots happy and she will recover........do a google search on hydrogen peroxide for trees with wet feet.   3% 6% .....20% and food grade.
Hi Dood-

I've been very busy the past several weeks and off-forum, but I've also been in the garden with the tomatoes and such.  I went on not watering the tree for a couple more weeks, but the medium never really dried out (meter always read above mid-level moist.  The top 3" of the medium seems to be dry.  Down below I can feel that its moist, but not soaking.  I guess the roots just aren't sucking up any water.  Also, the rootbuilder containers are out of the sun for most of the day, though the plants get 6+ hours.  Now that we're hitting 100+F degree whether regularly, I felt it was time to water the plants a bit, since what leaves remained were wilting and drying to a crisp.  Yesterday evening, I gave your Hydrogen Peroxide a try, not expecting much, but we'll see.  I did 1/4 to 1/2 cup 3% to a gallon.  That's a bit light from what I've read online, but maybe it helps.   Thanks for the tips.

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2018, 08:27:43 PM »
You could start direct seeding some rootstock Seeds into the ground now, to graft next spring. It's going to be tough , if not impossible to turn them around as described , in my experience. Instead of nursing along sick plants ,  or along with,  get some more rootstock going so you could graft your sickly varieties on there , or get more scion to graft.
Shade them from Midday sun right now. Good luck.
Yes, I've just been thinking about this, as I drop those big Hass seeds into the chicken-toss container every night.  Do you recommend specific varieties for seeding, or will any store-bought Hass do the trick.  Not all seeds appear to be equal, so probably not all are as Hassy as I assume.  I see those small seeded guys as well.  Would you say the simplest thing is to just drop the seeds 3" down with the pointy end toward Earth in a 5G container?  Thanks!

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2018, 08:29:41 PM »
z willus

See my post in this thread. You don't live that far from me I'm in modesto area with the same zone 9b and weather as you. Take a look here at my post and let me know if you want to talk and you can even see my yard if you want. I would love to help if I can.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=28230.0

Containerman- as it happens, I had been off-forum for a bit, but first thing I did today on return was to read your thread there, and I even responded much to your point.  We should chat sometime.  Let me know if you're ever up this way.  I'm in the East Roseville foothills.

containerman

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2018, 09:19:25 PM »
z willus

See my post in this thread. You don't live that far from me I'm in modesto area with the same zone 9b and weather as you. Take a look here at my post and let me know if you want to talk and you can even see my yard if you want. I would love to help if I can.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=28230.0
yes take a look
Containerman- as it happens, I had been off-forum for a bit, but first thing I did today on return was to read your thread there, and I even responded much to your point.  We should chat sometime.  Let me know if you're ever up this way.  I'm in the East Roseville foothills.







z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2018, 11:18:10 PM »
You are the Containerman.  Nice clutch of avocados you've got there!

Bush2Beach

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2018, 11:34:04 AM »
Use Mexicola or Bacon seeds for rootstock. Direct seed into the earth.

You could start direct seeding some rootstock Seeds into the ground now, to graft next spring. It's going to be tough , if not impossible to turn them around as described , in my experience. Instead of nursing along sick plants ,  or along with,  get some more rootstock going so you could graft your sickly varieties on there , or get more scion to graft.
Shade them from Midday sun right now. Good luck.
Yes, I've just been thinking about this, as I drop those big Hass seeds into the chicken-toss container every night.  Do you recommend specific varieties for seeding, or will any store-bought Hass do the trick.  Not all seeds appear to be equal, so probably not all are as Hassy as I assume.  I see those small seeded guys as well.  Would you say the simplest thing is to just drop the seeds 3" down with the pointy end toward Earth in a 5G container?  Thanks!

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2018, 01:09:47 PM »
Use Mexicola or Bacon seeds for rootstock. Direct seed into the earth.

You could start direct seeding some rootstock Seeds into the ground now, to graft next spring. It's going to be tough , if not impossible to turn them around as described , in my experience. Instead of nursing along sick plants ,  or along with,  get some more rootstock going so you could graft your sickly varieties on there , or get more scion to graft.
Shade them from Midday sun right now. Good luck.
Yes, I've just been thinking about this, as I drop those big Hass seeds into the chicken-toss container every night.  Do you recommend specific varieties for seeding, or will any store-bought Hass do the trick.  Not all seeds appear to be equal, so probably not all are as Hassy as I assume.  I see those small seeded guys as well.  Would you say the simplest thing is to just drop the seeds 3" down with the pointy end toward Earth in a 5G container?  Thanks!
Ah, ok.  Yeah, I have no source for such, other than purchase.  I like the idea of using seeds that I'm otherwise throwing away.  Are the store bought seeds not ideal across certain factors?  Salt immunity, root rot, etc.?  I need to visit a farmers market in Avocado season to see what I can find/purchase for consumption and seeding.  I think Duke seeds work well also.

laidbackdood

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2018, 01:17:28 PM »
seed should be just under the surface mate....not 3 inches down......you can also try that cocktail sticks skewered over a glass of water thing but ive never had a joy with that......hunt on you tube.

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2018, 01:42:54 PM »
seed should be just under the surface mate....not 3 inches down......you can also try that cocktail sticks skewered over a glass of water thing but ive never had a joy with that......hunt on you tube.
I see.  Good to know.  Now for seeds.

zephian

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2018, 02:58:48 PM »
I'll be stopping by the Marysville Farmers market this Sunday, I'll see what kind of avocados they have and let you know. We usually get several while we are there.
-Kris

z_willus_d

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Re: fully soaking containers when watering
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2018, 03:04:54 PM »
Thanks Kris.  That will be great to know.

 

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