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Author Topic: Subtropical abiu relatives?  (Read 879 times)

barath

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Subtropical abiu relatives?
« on: June 06, 2018, 12:30:34 AM »
What relatives in Pouteria are the closest subtropical relatives of abiu?  I remember Oscar had some highland abiu relatives at one point -- are there others, even ones that are a bit more distant?  I assume lucuma, canistel, etc. are not very closely related but happy to be wrong about that.

Ulfr

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 02:38:56 AM »
I have seen Abiu itself grown here in the subtropics. No idea how well it fruits.

Sorry dont know the closest relative, most common pouteria do ok in the subtropics I would think?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 02:44:33 AM by Ulfr »

So_Cal_Mike

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 03:17:31 AM »
P lucuma has gone through two winters here so far with no problems.
[size=85]Sunset Zone: 21 USDA Zone: 10a AHS Heat Zone: 6-7[/size]

KarenRei

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 05:32:45 AM »
I'll try to remember to check my climate data this evening. I have a program that pairs recorded instances of species vs. NASA climate data to produce an average climate for each species.  It doesn't at this point however record "extremes" for each species; I might change that at some point in the future.
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

00christian00

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2018, 06:37:23 AM »
The closest relative with better cold hardiness is Chrysophyllum imperiale, the fruit seem very similar.
Should grow in 10a zone, maybe 9b too. There are very few specimen so it's impossible to know the real limit.

barath

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2018, 09:59:29 AM »
The closest relative with better cold hardiness is Chrysophyllum imperiale, the fruit seem very similar.
Should grow in 10a zone, maybe 9b too. There are very few specimen so it's impossible to know the real limit.

I had thought of C. imperiale as more closely related to starapple, but it would be interesting to see if they're compatible.

00christian00

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2018, 05:18:18 PM »
The closest relative with better cold hardiness is Chrysophyllum imperiale, the fruit seem very similar.
Should grow in 10a zone, maybe 9b too. There are very few specimen so it's impossible to know the real limit.

I had thought of C. imperiale as more closely related to starapple, but it would be interesting to see if they're compatible.
I thought you were looking for a similar fruit, not for a potential rootstock.
Anyway I think Abiu, Star apple and C. Imperiale are more closely related than Abiu and other pouterias like Lucuma, mamey, Canistel etc.
The fruit and seeds are almost identical while common Pouteria seeds are usually bigger and spherical.

barath

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2018, 05:47:50 PM »
Ah, interesting, thanks!  Now I just need to find a source for C. imperiale.  I got some seeds from Australia a few years back but they rotted in the mail.

fruitlovers

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 06:12:50 PM »
What relatives in Pouteria are the closest subtropical relatives of abiu?  I remember Oscar had some highland abiu relatives at one point -- are there others, even ones that are a bit more distant?  I assume lucuma, canistel, etc. are not very closely related but happy to be wrong about that.
There are types of lucuma that grow at quite high elevation in Andes and are indeed sub tropical. But it tastes more like canistel than it does like abiu. Pouteria torta tastes very similar to abiu, but i don't know what it's cold limits are. It does seem more vigorous than abiu. There are types of Pouteria torta subsp. gallifructa which grow in highlands of Guatemala and are subtropical. That one also tastes simillar to abiu (and looks like a rambutan). Green sapote can take some cold, but tastes more like mamey sapote than abiu.
Oscar

KarenRei

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 06:38:18 PM »
Anyway I think Abiu, Star apple and C. Imperiale are more closely related than Abiu and other pouterias like Lucuma, mamey, Canistel etc.

If botanists agreed with this then abiu would be classified under Chrysophyllum.
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

00christian00

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 07:07:05 PM »
Anyway I think Abiu, Star apple and C. Imperiale are more closely related than Abiu and other pouterias like Lucuma, mamey, Canistel etc.

If botanists agreed with this then abiu would be classified under Chrysophyllum.

If this was proven science we would have names that stick forever, instead I see way too often plants changing names and I am not talking of incorrect ID on this forum.
The same Chrysophyllum Imperiale we are talking here was :
1-Theophrasta imperialis
2-Martusiella imperialis
3-Chrysophyllum Imperiale

And now they want to go back to Martusiella, because some dna study revealed it is not closely related to neither Chrysophyllum nor Pouteria.
I am not a botanist, but the above is my point of view.

fruitlovers

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 12:01:35 AM »
The closest relative with better cold hardiness is Chrysophyllum imperiale, the fruit seem very similar.
Should grow in 10a zone, maybe 9b too. There are very few specimen so it's impossible to know the real limit.

I had thought of C. imperiale as more closely related to starapple, but it would be interesting to see if they're compatible.
I thought you were looking for a similar fruit, not for a potential rootstock.
Anyway I think Abiu, Star apple and C. Imperiale are more closely related than Abiu and other pouterias like Lucuma, mamey, Canistel etc.
The fruit and seeds are almost identical while common Pouteria seeds are usually bigger and spherical.
Abiu seeds don't look anything like starapple or C. imperiale seeds.
Oscar

00christian00

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2018, 02:33:58 AM »
The closest relative with better cold hardiness is Chrysophyllum imperiale, the fruit seem very similar.
Should grow in 10a zone, maybe 9b too. There are very few specimen so it's impossible to know the real limit.


I had thought of C. imperiale as more closely related to starapple, but it would be interesting to see if they're compatible.

I thought you were looking for a similar fruit, not for a potential rootstock.
Anyway I think Abiu, Star apple and C. Imperiale are more closely related than Abiu and other pouterias like Lucuma, mamey, Canistel etc.
The fruit and seeds are almost identical while common Pouteria seeds are usually bigger and spherical.

Abiu seeds don't look anything like starapple or C. imperiale seeds.


I never had Abiu but from the pictures online this is very similar to my seeds of C.Imperiale  and C. Albidum, it's just a little fatter:


Anyway I am not saying Abius should switch to Pouteria, I am just saying I think they have more in common then some Pouteria and it's worth a try as rootstock.
They must have something in common or they wouldn't be both in the Sapotacee family.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 02:38:04 AM by 00christian00 »

fruitlovers

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2018, 04:23:59 AM »
The closest relative with better cold hardiness is Chrysophyllum imperiale, the fruit seem very similar.
Should grow in 10a zone, maybe 9b too. There are very few specimen so it's impossible to know the real limit.

I had thought of C. imperiale as more closely related to starapple, but it would be interesting to see if they're compatible.
I thought you were looking for a similar fruit, not for a potential rootstock.
Anyway I think Abiu, Star apple and C. Imperiale are more closely related than Abiu and other pouterias like Lucuma, mamey, Canistel etc.
The fruit and seeds are almost identical while common Pouteria seeds are usually bigger and spherical.
Abiu seeds don't look anything like starapple or C. imperiale seeds.

I never had Abiu but from the pictures online this is very similar to my seeds of C.Imperiale  and C. Albidum, it's just a little fatter:


Anyway I am not saying Abius should switch to Pouteria, I am just saying I think they have more in common then some Pouteria and it's worth a try as rootstock.
They must have something in common or they wouldn't be both in the Sapotacee family.
Abius are already in Pouteria genus. The seeds are about 10x the size of C. imperiale seeds. Also imperiale seeds are flatenned like starapple seeds. Abius have long cylindrical and torpedo shaped seeds. Hard to tell from photo you posted, but if you see ever see them you will see very big difference.
Oscar

eyal12

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2018, 10:53:07 AM »
thanks, following.

JF

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2018, 12:07:37 PM »
Canistel imposible to grow in Northern California quiet early in SoCal












Bush2Beach

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2018, 12:51:30 PM »
Canistel growing impossibly fine in Northern California, Thanks for the report.
Why is it always about what doesn't grow in Northern California with you?
It's nice to see your growing a good looking Canistel ( cut fruit picture?.
You know how to grow things well in Orange County. 
You have no idea who is growing Canistel and how it's growing in Northern California, but I guess if it makes you feel good continue to harp on how nothing grows in Northern California and add it too the list.

JF

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2018, 01:21:46 PM »
You dont know me and know less what makes me feel good so keep those opinions to yourself buddy.  I had my son living in Northern California for a few years and based on the summer and winter days I spend there I cant call it  subtropical
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 01:28:51 PM by JF »

gozp

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2018, 02:47:24 PM »
Canistel growing impossibly fine in Northern California, Thanks for the report.
Why is it always about what doesn't grow in Northern California with you?
It's nice to see your growing a good looking Canistel ( cut fruit picture?.
You know how to grow things well in Orange County. 
You have no idea who is growing Canistel and how it's growing in Northern California, but I guess if it makes you feel good continue to harp on how nothing grows in Northern California and add it too the list.


I live in SoCal San fernando Valley, usually  10 degrees colder or hotter than LA.  &have killed 3 yellow canistels during the winter (considering infusing all the good stuffs)... unprotected while my lucuma is hardy on the winter..
 In my area, it is difficult to grow tiesa unless u protect it during the winter...

I was wondering if ur canistel is protected or has a better microclimate in your place?

joehewitt

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Re: Subtropical abiu relatives?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 05:21:34 PM »
Here in Northern California I have a Canistel (unknown variety) that's been outside for two years and it's never suffered any harm from the cold. In fact it pushed out some new leaves this winter. Just put it in the ground this past April. Who knows if it will ever fruit or just be one of those subtropicals that survives but grows super slow and produces nothing.



 

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