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Author Topic: Recommended citrus for a public garden  (Read 2348 times)

KarenRei

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Recommended citrus for a public garden
« on: June 06, 2018, 08:08:35 AM »
So, as you probably know, I'm involved in a project to build a series of greenhouse domes in Reykjavk combining normal commercial space (restaurants, coffee shops, workplaces, etc) with active cultivation of exotic tropicals. And to that end I've been accumulating data about every "interesting" tropical edible under the sun that comes onto my radar, to aid in plant selection.  Since I've recently been working on citrus, I thought I'd ask: what citrus varieties would you recommend?  :)  We're as always looking for the best mix of taste, productivity, precociousness, attractive appearance / scent, ease of cultivation, interesting history/stories/other uses, and so forth. Fast  growing and shade tolerant are plusses, but not essential  :)  Small fruited is probably better than large fruited, as it makes it easier to offer "samples", but this is further down the priority list.

So far the ones that sounded interesting to me were:
 * Finger limes (shade-loving and neat appearance, although need to be careful with cultivar selection to avoid a soapy taste)
 * Bergamot Orange (everyone knows it because of Earl Grey, etc, but few know the actual fruit)
 * Kaffir Lime (the leaves being if anything more in-demand than the fruit)
 * C. limon "Kannu'on" - got to love any lemon whose smell gets described as "Fruit Loops cereal"  ;) Most lemon cultivars I've seen info on are described as producing all year, although I don't know about this one.
 * Meyer Lemon - just because they're generally well appreciated, as far as "lemons" go.
 * Buddha's Hand Citron (I also considered etrog, but after talking with a rabbi realized that I wouldn't be able to grow them kosher, so there would be no point)
 * Mandarins - they're not spectacular or exotic, but they're a Christmas tradition here.
 * Ponkan - like giant mandarins, so see above.
 * Blood oranges - anthocyanin-rich and look neat.

Anything else that should go under consideration?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 08:38:19 AM by KarenRei »
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Millet

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2018, 11:15:39 AM »
Most every cultivar you mention, would offer varieties that are little known to the public, and of little taste value.  Of all the varieties you list, I would go along with Ponkan.  I have a Ponkan tree it is a larger mandarin fruit than normal with good taste, but also some seeds.   I would think your needs would be for dwarf trees.  Any mandarin grafted upon Flying Dragon rootstock would fill the bill.

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2018, 11:51:14 AM »
Most every cultivar you mention, would offer varieties that are little known to the public, and of little taste value.  Of all the varieties you list, I would go along with Ponkan.  I have a Ponkan tree it is a larger mandarin fruit than normal with good taste, but also some seeds.   I would think your needs would be for dwarf trees.  Any mandarin grafted upon Flying Dragon rootstock would fill the bill.

Little known is a good thing (we're not going to be even close to competing on price with commodity citrus from Spain, etc, and "new experiences" / aesthetic appeal is part of the draw). But you don't like the taste of any of the above except ponkan?  Of the above, I've had kaffir lime, meyer lemon, mandarins and blood orange, and like them all. I also like citron in general after cooking and sweetening (never had the Buddha's Hand variety), and love bergamot smell / flavour (though I've never had the fresh fruit).

If you don't think any of the above are good except ponkan, what would you recommend?

We have no shortage of roof height, but obviously we want to maximize diversity. To what degree that involves dwarfs, pruning, or multiply grafted trees is yet to be decided.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 11:53:31 AM by KarenRei »
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Millet

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2018, 03:09:30 PM »
Karen of the ones you listed I like the taste of Blood Oranges, mandarins and finger limes.  My favorite mandarin is a variety named Xie Shan.


SoCal2warm

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 12:01:04 AM »
For more of an academic interest, you might be interested in some of the more obscure Japanese varieties. These types may not be as easy to find. Keraji, Kinkoji (known as Bloomsweet grapefruit in the U.S.), Kunenbo (likely you will have to go to a Japanese botanical collection for that, quite a history behind it).
Some other uncommon interesting ones to grow would be Duncan citrumelo, pomelo (C. maxima, the ancestor of grapefruit), citron (the ancestor of lemons, and there's a Giant Etrog citron variety that may be interesting), and Ichang Papeda.

I don't know if there's any possibility of using the greenhouse space as a dual use citrus breeding space. I realize Iceland is too cold to grow citrus outside, but there are people growing certain species and hybrid citrus in England and Germany. Maybe you could use your space to try to breed cold-hardy varieties that taste better. That doesn't really require much work, just knowledge. Most of the work is just in growing and taking care of the plants, which you're going to do anyway. Maybe get a volunteer citrus breeding expert in there to collaborate on the project. This citrus guy could, in turn, get advice from many people in other countries on what different crosses to try to breed. Your greenhouse could turn out to be pretty valuable for posterity.

I'm doing cold-hardy citrus breeding work and wish I had some greenhouse space to leave my small seedlings until they grew into bigger fruiting plants. Then I'd do the pollination of the flowers by hand and collect the seeds from the fruits, to grow new hybrid seedlings. Growing little seedlings doesn't take up much space and I can do it in my home, but growing all those big fruiting plants would take a lot of greenhouse space. Someone to keep them watered (which you're going to be doing anyway in your project). Unfortunately I don't live in Reykjavik.

For mandarins I would recommend Satsuma and Shasta Gold. A lot of people love Page too, which is pretty similar to Minneola tangelo (also very delicious and a good one for your collection).
Kishu mandarins are also very easy to peel and very small (seedless too if they don't get pollinated), very fun.

Another thing I'd suggest to really save on energy during the night is using geothermal heat banking. This basically fans air through pipes running into the ground, so heat during the day gets stored in the ground. There are several videos on this, you might look into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2NtBCS2_WQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZghkt5m1uY

A good depth would be 3.5 to 10 meters.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:31:41 AM by SoCal2warm »

AndrewAZ

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 12:51:35 AM »
Blood clementine mandarin ails be a good choice.  Browns select satsuma Mandarin is a favorite of mine.  Rio red grapefruit is another favorire.
Arizona sweet oranges are heirloom varieties grown in AZ from the out if business citrus groves.  Best tasting orange I have ever had, but, I don't think you can get it out of state quarantine.

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2018, 04:47:21 AM »
Blood clementine mandarin ails be a good choice.  Browns select satsuma Mandarin is a favorite of mine.  Rio red grapefruit is another favorire.
Arizona sweet oranges are heirloom varieties grown in AZ from the out if business citrus groves.  Best tasting orange I have ever had, but, I don't think you can get it out of state quarantine.

Interesting, I had never heard of blood clementine mandarins - apparently a cross between a Clemenules mandarin and a Tarocco blood orange.  That sounds really great!  I know that some mandarin cultivars (and most clementine cultivars) are picky about pollination - do you know anything about their self fertility / cross compatibilities?  Reading through citrus pollination research is a real headache... it's always like, "A crossed with B yields poor fruit set, but B crossed with A sets well, while C crossed with A yields great fruit set but ends up seedy, while A crossed with C starts forming seeds but they abort.... "... ten pages later "... However, when we crossed Z with Q, the results were surprisingly different from when we crossed H, F, and L with Q...."

What are the desirable qualities in your view of the Browns Select Satsuma Mandarin, Rio Red Grapefruit, and Arizona Sweet Orange?

You know, I don't know if the citris psyllid quarantines would actually affect us; isn't that generally an importer restriction, not an exporter restriction? Wouldn't that require a restriction on our end?  Iceland doesn't exactly have a domestic citrus industry to protect, and the psyllid wouldn't survive outside, so I somewhat doubt we'd have a ban.
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Radoslav

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2018, 07:47:00 AM »
Reykjavk is zone 8a, so i guess, it is not easy to get good quality fruit even in greenhouse.
There are 2 categories, ornamental and edible citruses.
In the first category there is a load of cultivars of bitter oranges and crosses of limon and citron.
They are productive and with many shapes of fruit.
Second category are citruses grown for good fruit. From this category, I recommend lemons, because they are sour and in citruses, more sweet means more complicated to grow to reach quality of fruit.
From sweet cultivars the most easy to grow to reach good fruit in your conditions are unshiu mandarins, especially the early cultivars.

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2018, 08:45:22 AM »
Reykjavk is zone 8a, so i guess, it is not easy to get good quality fruit even in greenhouse.

Oh no, we have excellent quality greenhouse fruit, including sun-loving species like tomatoes. The solution is simple: use ridiculous amounts of geothermal / hydroelectric electricity in lighting  ;)  You can see the greenhouses glowing from great distances away**.



Outdoors, though?  Yeah, that's mainly things like root vegetables, some grains, rhubarb, etc.  Nobody is going to be growing citrus as an outdoor plant here  ;)  BTW, our real problem is not our winter lows (which are actually pretty mild), but rather our daily summer temperatures. A typical July high is around ~15 / 60F. A lot of plants just simply won't grow much if at all in air / soil that's that cool, even though we have tons of summer light. The wind is also a real problem for a lot of plants.  It's normal to get storms with hurricane-force sustained winds in the winter. Several years back we had gusts up to Cat. 5 strength that were really devastating on my land.  To put it mildly, one's outdoor plant selection options are limited  ;)

** - Where we are, light pollution won't be as well tolerated. We're looking at various solutions, from limiting illumination hours to retractable curtains.

Quote
In the first category there is a load of cultivars of bitter oranges and crosses of limon and citron.

In general, if something is to be mostly just for its ornamental aspects**, it needs to be pretty impressive (such as Buddha's Hand). Are there other "mostly ornamentals" that approach that level of "interestingness"?

** - Unless Buddha's Hand citrons are bad from a citron perspective, I wouldn't call them just ornamental. While citron's not an out-of-hand fruit, it makes a great marmelade.  :)  Candied citron is good too.  Of course, out-of-hand fruits are better choices.

Quote
Second category are citruses grown for good fruit. From this category, I recommend lemons, because they are sour and in citruses

Do you have experience with Kannu'on?  I've seen that recommended for its smell, but it doesn't seem to be a very common cultivar.  Are there any specific cultivars you find noteworthy?  And I assume you're referring specifically to C. limon rather than the other lemon-like citruses, such as Meyer?  From what I've come across, C. limon appears to have the nice property of fruiting multiple times or even more or less continuously throughout the year so long as the weather is good.

Quote
more sweet means more complicated to grow to reach quality of fruit.
From sweet cultivars the most easy to grow to reach good fruit in your conditions are unshiu mandarins, especially the early cultivars.

I'll need to look up the pollination statuses on these later, thanks.  I assume that this recommendation isn't based on temperature (they'll never experience a cold day in their lives), but other desirable cultivation properties?  Note that if any plant needs chill hours, that's a bad thing; it means either having to vent cold air in, or move plants outside, which would be significant labour.  And/or applying rest-breaking chemicals.  I know that generally citrus doesn't require chill, but I mention this just in case.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 09:06:25 AM by KarenRei »
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SoCal2warm

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2018, 02:10:03 PM »
I'm managing to grow several varieties of cold hardy citrus outside in the Pacific Northwest (U.S.) zone 8a, but that's still quite a different climate from Iceland. The first part of the year, all the way till mid-May or June simply does not have warm enough temperatures to sustain citrus growth, so the growing season is confined to a few months in the Summer (all the way up till around mid-September about, but maybe sometimes October). Iceland simply does not have those warm Summers.

However, I've found that a simple plastic grow frame enclosure can increase the temperature all the way up to 90 (F) in April on a clear sunny day (when it might only be 60 outside). Just goes to show the power of the Greenhouse Effect. Some people put several containers of water inside to try to hold the heat during the night. Trying to use a passive enclosure can be a bit problematic here after March because, if not vented out, there can be a few days in April that get too sunny and hot. That probably would not be a problem in Iceland.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 03:16:02 PM by SoCal2warm »

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2018, 06:55:02 PM »
I'm managing to grow several varieties of cold hardy citrus outside in the Pacific Northwest (U.S.) zone 8a, but that's still quite a different climate from Iceland. The first part of the year, all the way till mid-May or June simply does not have warm enough temperatures to sustain citrus growth, so the growing season is confined to a few months in the Summer (all the way up till around mid-September about, but maybe sometimes October). Iceland simply does not have those warm Summers.

Exactly.  Which is why I wouldn't dream of growing citrus outdoors.  That's beyond the bounds of crazy.  :)  It's hard enough to grow things like apples outdoors here.

That said, I am doing some experimenting with soil heating - both to improve summer growth (increases root activity), and to prevent hard root freezes in the winter.  But it's a delicate balance.  I was testing a ponytail "palm" last winter, and it was doing surprisingly well.  But I turned up the heat some, and watered, and it died in a single day.  If the soil is too moist and or the temperature too high, it breaks dormancy, and in the middle of winter that's a Very Bad Thing(TM):  ;)  And even that balance can be struck, citrus just sounds like a step too far.

Quote
However, I've found that a simple plastic grow frame enclosure can increase the temperature all the way up to 90 (F) in April on a clear sunny day (when it might only be 60 outside). Just goes to show the power of the Greenhouse Effect.

Hmm...you know, there may be some potential there, maybe a microclimate in an entryway with a largely enclosed awning. I'll need to see what Hjrds is thinking for the outdoor areas.

But right now, I'm mainly focused on crops for the interior.  :)

Quote
if not vented out, there can be a few days in April that get too sunny and hot. That probably would not be a problem in Iceland.

Our commercial greenhouses still use automatic vent openers.  The greenhouse effect can be really powerful, as you note.  Sometimes the waste heat from all the lights can be too excessive as well  ;)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 06:57:16 PM by KarenRei »
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mangaba

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2018, 07:30:56 PM »
I still have not understood your objetives : Are you going to grow to show the varieties of citrus ? Taste is something relative - why bother if the visitor has no access to taste the fruit ? Will the visitors have a chance only to see/watch ? or have a chance to try the fruit ?
My opinion: Try and plant all varieties of citrus which will grow in your environment.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2018, 01:53:27 AM »
Hmm...you know, there may be some potential there, maybe a microclimate in an entryway with a largely enclosed awning. I'll need to see what Hjrds is thinking for the outdoor areas.
You might see this video, growing Meyer lemons outside on Vancouver Island which has very cool temperatures most of the year.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XX-R8sq6-vg

Radoslav

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2018, 08:22:39 AM »
Reykjavk is zone 8a, so i guess, it is not easy to get good quality fruit even in greenhouse.


Oh no, we have excellent quality greenhouse fruit, including sun-loving species like tomatoes. The solution is simple: use ridiculous amounts of geothermal / hydroelectric electricity in lighting  ;)  You can see the greenhouses glowing from great distances away**.



Outdoors, though?  Yeah, that's mainly things like root vegetables, some grains, rhubarb, etc.  Nobody is going to be growing citrus as an outdoor plant here  ;)  BTW, our real problem is not our winter lows (which are actually pretty mild), but rather our daily summer temperatures. A typical July high is around ~15 / 60F. A lot of plants just simply won't grow much if at all in air / soil that's that cool, even though we have tons of summer light. The wind is also a real problem for a lot of plants.  It's normal to get storms with hurricane-force sustained winds in the winter. Several years back we had gusts up to Cat. 5 strength that were really devastating on my land.  To put it mildly, one's outdoor plant selection options are limited  ;)

** - Where we are, light pollution won't be as well tolerated. We're looking at various solutions, from limiting illumination hours to retractable curtains.

Quote
In the first category there is a load of cultivars of bitter oranges and crosses of limon and citron.


In general, if something is to be mostly just for its ornamental aspects**, it needs to be pretty impressive (such as Buddha's Hand). Are there other "mostly ornamentals" that approach that level of "interestingness"?

** - Unless Buddha's Hand citrons are bad from a citron perspective, I wouldn't call them just ornamental. While citron's not an out-of-hand fruit, it makes a great marmelade.  :)  Candied citron is good too.  Of course, out-of-hand fruits are better choices.

Quote
Second category are citruses grown for good fruit. From this category, I recommend lemons, because they are sour and in citruses


Do you have experience with Kannu'on?  I've seen that recommended for its smell, but it doesn't seem to be a very common cultivar.  Are there any specific cultivars you find noteworthy?  And I assume you're referring specifically to C. limon rather than the other lemon-like citruses, such as Meyer?  From what I've come across, C. limon appears to have the nice property of fruiting multiple times or even more or less continuously throughout the year so long as the weather is good.

Quote
more sweet means more complicated to grow to reach quality of fruit.
From sweet cultivars the most easy to grow to reach good fruit in your conditions are unshiu mandarins, especially the early cultivars.


I'll need to look up the pollination statuses on these later, thanks.  I assume that this recommendation isn't based on temperature (they'll never experience a cold day in their lives), but other desirable cultivation properties?  Note that if any plant needs chill hours, that's a bad thing; it means either having to vent cold air in, or move plants outside, which would be significant labour.  And/or applying rest-breaking chemicals.  I know that generally citrus doesn't require chill, but I mention this just in case.


1.We have those tomato farms here too. But I guess, you will not put 1000W lamp above each tree in public garden.  :D

2.Except buddha's hand there are some others with unusual shape or colour like:
Citrus auranium "Bizzarria"
https://www.oscartintori.it/prodotto/arancio-bizzarria/
Citrus aurantium "Canaliculata"
https://www.oscartintori.it/prodotto/arancio-amaro-a-frutto-incannellato-o-scannellato/
Citrus aurantium "Fasciata"
http://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/citrusvarieties/fasciata.html
etc.

3. When I said lemons, I meant citruses which normally are sour like citrus limon.
Because sour is sour, there is nothing to spoil because of bad growing conditions.

4. Unshiu mandarins aka satsumas are good choice for sweet citruses, because they accept mild weather and early cultivars are ripe before short winter days start.

5. Last thing is rootstock. For ornamental citruses nurseries like Oscar Tintori use citrus volkameriana, it is not good rootstock for sweet citruses, but ornamental cultivars form nice crown and loads of flowers on it.

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2018, 10:09:01 AM »
Hmm...you know, there may be some potential there, maybe a microclimate in an entryway with a largely enclosed awning. I'll need to see what Hjrds is thinking for the outdoor areas.
You might see this video, growing Meyer lemons outside on Vancouver Island which has very cool temperatures most of the year.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XX-R8sq6-vg

Vancouver is practically tropical compared to us  ;)  7C / 12F hotter in July.

Seriously, people would laugh (and rightly so) if one suggested growing citrus outside here. 
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KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2018, 10:22:23 AM »
I still have not understood your objetives : Are you going to grow to show the varieties of citrus ? Taste is something relative - why bother if the visitor has no access to taste the fruit ? Will the visitors have a chance only to see/watch ? or have a chance to try the fruit ?
My opinion: Try and plant all varieties of citrus which will grow in your environment.

It's not a public "citrus garden"; citrus are just among the numerous species to be grown.  We can't afford to dedicate the entire space to citrus, and so choosing the best options is the most important aspect.

The visitors will have access to taste the fruit.  Hjrds ultimately decides the details, but from past meetings, it's to be something like: anything produced in excess can be free for anyone to try, even those visiting to shop, work, or go to a restaurant; those with a membership or those on a tour can take a certain amount of whatever they want on each visit; and people can always buy more of whatever they want on an individual-fruit basis.  The goal is to have an aesthetically pleasing, relaxing environment for the commercial space, while at the same time offering people new culinary "experiences".  Local produce will also be worked in (in small quantities) to on-site restaurant offerings.  For fruits that prove popular, we plan to try - where possible - to partner with greenhouse growers elsewhere in the country (for fast, easy to produce plants) or elsewhere in the the world (for large, long-to-establish plants) to bring more fruits to the on-site marketplace. Because there's no way we'll ever be able to produce enough on-site for every visitor to eat whatever they wanted, however much they wanted.

Obviously we'd love it if we could just let anyone who walked in off the street take whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted, but that's obviously not a sustainable business model.  So we have to focus on exotics and experiences, rather than just growing whatever you can pick up at a local grocery store.  The main point of the building is - like most commercial buildings - to provide floor space to commercial activities. But combining this with plant cultivation simultaneously adds an aesthetic appeal to the commercial area while adding an additional customer draw and potential revenue source (tours**, sales, etc), helping offset the cultivation costs and floor space consumed (the latter being something we're looking to minimize with proper pruning, espalier, living walls for small plants, etc).

 ** Iceland is a tourism destination, but it's also a place with frequent bad weather. If you're a tourist stuck in town in a snowstorm, what better place could you visit than a tropical paradise?  :)  We also have connection with history onsite (there's the remnants of an old sustenance farm on the site which we plan to leave in place), the facility will be powered by geothermal energy (one of the things tourists often find interesting about Iceland), etc.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:45:17 AM by KarenRei »
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KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2018, 10:29:43 AM »
1.We have those tomato farms here too. But I guess, you will not put 1000W lamp above each tree in public garden.  :D


That's actually precisely what I'm advocating for  ;)  Many hundreds of kilowatts of high-efficiency lights for the site, providing a similar average annual photon flux to a tropical location. And that's the route which I believe we're ultimately going to take.  But I'm accumulating data on both sun and shade plants, and if the team ultimately decides that we just can't afford that level of intense lighting, we'll have the shade-tolerant plants to fall back on.  There's a number of practical constraints of course, including spectrum comfort for people (white) vs. optimal efficiency for plants (red-blue), ensuring sufficient canopy interception of light, light pollution, etc.  But we're investigating solutions for each of them. Hjrds is a big believer in - as am I - the mental health benefits of being exposed to "sunlight", particularly in the winter dim. We want to include natural levels of UV as well, because again, vitamin D shortage is a serious problem in the winter here.

We want people who come to feel healthy, and be healthy.  :)  There's going to be some really interesting wellness centre options onsite.

Quote
2.Except buddha's hand there are some others with unusual shape or colour like:
Citrus auranium "Bizzarria"
https://www.oscartintori.it/prodotto/arancio-bizzarria/
Citrus aurantium "Canaliculata"
https://www.oscartintori.it/prodotto/arancio-amaro-a-frutto-incannellato-o-scannellato/
Citrus aurantium "Fasciata"
http://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/citrusvarieties/fasciata.html
etc.


Interesting variegation and shapes - thanks for those, I'll start looking into them.

Quote
3. When I said lemons, I meant citruses which normally are sour like citrus limon.
Because sour is sour, there is nothing to spoil because of bad growing conditions.

4. Unshiu mandarins aka satsumas are good choice for sweet citruses, because they accept mild weather and early cultivars are ripe before short winter days start.

5. Last thing is rootstock. For ornamental citruses nurseries like Oscar Tintori use citrus volkameriana, it is not good rootstock for sweet citruses, but ornamental cultivars form nice crown and loads of flowers on it.


Interesting, thanks for that. I assume the problem with using it for sweet citruses is it yields lower brix fruits?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:46:29 AM by KarenRei »
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Ilya11

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2018, 11:59:27 AM »
There are two citrus varieties that were bread for low winter sun indoor conditions: Pavlovsky lemon and Pavlovsky mandarin. But of course Pavlovo at 55N is far from Reykjavk at 64N
Best regards,
                       Ilya

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2018, 03:01:53 PM »
There are two citrus varieties that were bread for low winter sun indoor conditions: Pavlovsky lemon and Pavlovsky mandarin. But of course Pavlovo at 55N is far from Reykjavk at 64N

Bred for indoor greenhouse growing at 55N without any supplemental light?  Wow, impressive.  Will definitely research them.
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Ilya11

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2018, 03:22:16 PM »
Bred for indoor greenhouse growing at 55N without any supplemental light?  Wow, impressive.  Will definitely research them.
Not even for greenhouse; just south facing house window
Best regards,
                       Ilya

gnappi

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2018, 10:59:55 PM »
Based on your wants:

" taste, productivity, precociousness, attractive appearance / scent, ease of cultivation, interesting history/stories/other uses, and so forth. Fast  growing and shade tolerant are plusses, but not essential  :)  Small fruited is probably better than large fruited

It's not citrus but real close... my lemon drop mangosteen is all of that except fast growing (even though they are purported to grow fast) , but as an added bonus they are soil tolerant, as well as disease and pest free. Mine has never suffered a bit in our "cold" winters of high 40's and low 50's.

 I quoted you in BOLD above where I think the LDM shines.

See:

http://www.growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/lemondropmangosteen.htm

PS I recently got a "red lime" bush that by all accounts I have read should meet your needs.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 11:39:08 PM by gnappi »
Regards,

   Gary

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2018, 11:41:44 PM »
Heh, already have data on about a dozen mangosteen species collected. They tend to rank quite well  :) 

Does your red lime cultivar have a name?  Or is that the cultivar name, "Red Lime"?

Re. Pavlovsky citrus:

 * I find a lot of information about Pavlovsky lemon. Seems to be the pride of Pavlovo  ;)  Apparently there's also a Kursk lemon. About the same size, small thorns, sounds like it might be more productive, but also a "south window" plant.  But it's not as well known, I mainly find info on it on Russian pages.

 * I find very little information about Pavlovsky mandarins.  I did however find these pages:

https://pavlovolimon.ru/domashnij-plodonosyashhij-pavlovskij-mandarin/
https://pavlovolimon.ru/simvolizm-pomeranca-ili-put-pavlovskogo-mandarina-ot-antichnosti-do-nashix-dnej/

They state several things, including:

 * "Pavlovsky mandarin or, more accurately, pomeranian...."
 * "Pomeranets is a small woody plant of the genus Citrus. It is believed that it was bred by crossing the mandarin and pomelo."
 * " Pavlovsky mandarin is a cultivar of homemade mandarin . His homeland in the city of Pavlovo, that on the Oka"
 * "There are a lot of names for this mandarin: pomeranian , bitter orange , bihardia, etc. And it is derived, according to most scientists, from hybrid mandarin and pomelo"
 * "His native land was the Eastern Himalayas, in the tenth century he was brought to the Middle East, from where he spread to Africa and Europe. "
 * Generally propagated by rooted cuttings, rather than seeds or grafts. Does not come true from seed.
 * Thorny.

Is this an existing cultivar known by another name?  From the names, it sounds like they might be describing Poncirus trifoliata, although that's (as far as I know!) not a mandarin x pomelo cross. And the fruits are said to be sweet, unlike P. trifoliata. Isn't Citrus x sinensis = mandarin x pomelo?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 11:57:31 PM by KarenRei »
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Ilya11

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2018, 03:05:51 AM »
This variety sometimes is called Pavlovsky pomeranets. Normally "pomeranets" is a Russian name for sour orange, but for taste this variety is more on mandarin side, with only small note of bitterness.
That is why it  is alternatively called Pavlovsky mandarin. Nobody actually know its precise origin, probably some sort of hybrid seedling.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

KarenRei

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2018, 07:14:25 AM »
Thanks for that.  :)  I assume that even finger limes can't approach this level of low-light tolerance?
J, g er a rkta surnar plntur slandi. Nei, g er ekki klikku. Jja, kannski...

Mike T

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Re: Recommended citrus for a public garden
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2018, 08:28:38 AM »
Blood limes might also be a good option.

 

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