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Author Topic: Topworking cogshall  (Read 1289 times)

sunworshiper

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Topworking cogshall
« on: September 02, 2018, 06:26:36 PM »
I'm converting to Fairchild and Honeykiss. Cogshsll has nice flavor but too much jelly seed for my liking. I cut it back hard in May - will have to post that pic later it is on a different device. Wasn't able to find bud wood for a long time - so it grew a lot! I did no tipping or shaping, interesting to see when it branched on its own - after about 2 feet.



Cut back to see what I have to work with






And all grafted!






Brev Grower

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2018, 11:36:19 AM »
I believe to help mitigate your jelly seed, you can pick the cogshall at a mature green stage. Also I think a lack of calcium contributes to increased jelly seed in mango. I think the fairchild and honeykiss are good mangoes to graft to it. Good luck!

Cookie Monster

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2018, 03:33:25 PM »
Yep.

I believe to help mitigate your jelly seed, you can pick the cogshall at a mature green stage. Also I think a lack of calcium contributes to increased jelly seed in mango.
Jeff  :-)

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2018, 05:29:00 PM »
Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.

sapote

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2018, 07:42:00 PM »
bud or veneer grafts? It looks like veneer  graft to me.

Cookie Monster

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2018, 09:08:47 PM »
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.
Jeff  :-)

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2018, 09:21:27 PM »
Yep - complete sand! Great info - I would never have guessed so much calcium! Is there any negative effect if you add too much?
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 09:22:31 PM »
Good eye - veneer grafts!
bud or veneer grafts? It looks like veneer  graft to me.

Carbo

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2018, 10:13:27 AM »
My Cogshall has also been a jelly seed magnet.  It's a mature tree, in ground for about 6 or 7 years, and about 18 feet tall.
When is the time to add calcium and how much.  I bought a 6 lb bag of this:  https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-gypsum/
Also, when is the time to feed with 0-0-50?  I'm thinking next month, some time in October?

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2018, 10:28:25 AM »
Honey Kiss can get internal breakdown as well.

Cookie Monster

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2018, 11:25:25 AM »
Not that I know of. That's the quantity I use here on a yearly basis. You want Ca to K to be north of 10 to 1 for best flavor / max brix. Gypsum is only like 26% Ca.

Yep - complete sand! Great info - I would never have guessed so much calcium! Is there any negative effect if you add too much?
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.
Jeff  :-)

Cookie Monster

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 11:36:41 AM »
Now would be a good time to add gypsum. But you would be adding like 20x that much or more per tree. Gypsum is normally pretty cheap. I get mine for under $15 per 50 pound bag.

If you're on calcareous soil, Ca is generally not a limiting factor. I'm on calcareous soil, but I have roughly 6 inches of black compost on top of that (the product of super heavy mulching over the past decade), so my trees exhibit ca deficiency (the feeder roots tend to stay in the moist, nutrient dense compost area). Problem with compost is that the Ca to K ratio is like 2 to 1; the K offsets the Ca and leads to internal breakdown. Adding a few tons of gypsum per year did the trick.

Here's an FSHS article detailing how 9 tons / acre (about 1,000 pounds per tree) was used to mitigate jelly seed on deep florida sand: https://fshs.org/proceedings-o/1962-vol-75/364-371%20(YOUNG).pdf

My Cogshall has also been a jelly seed magnet.  It's a mature tree, in ground for about 6 or 7 years, and about 18 feet tall.
When is the time to add calcium and how much.  I bought a 6 lb bag of this:  https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-gypsum/
Also, when is the time to feed with 0-0-50?  I'm thinking next month, some time in October?
Jeff  :-)

Carbo

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 12:03:14 PM »
That much gypsum?!  Wow!  And here I was thinking I'm being proactive by sprinkling some around the tree.   :-[

sapote

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 06:09:35 PM »
"Is there any negative effect if you add too much?"

Whiter teeth and straighter spine (not like guys in Congress).

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2018, 09:12:54 PM »
Thanks for the fantastic info Cookie Monster! I definitely need to be using more then!

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2018, 10:26:51 PM »
Timing with the host plant flushing growth was perfect! I'm seeing growth on the Fairchild scions:
 




Honeykiss scions are still green and healthy looking but not growing yet - hopefully soon!

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2018, 06:53:23 PM »
Check out my uber graft shoot! All this pale green is from the scion:



And a close up of the graft:



Most of the takes look a lot more like this:



So what should I do with that super vigorous one? I've never had one sprout so many shoots. Should I leave all of them, or carefully cull down to fewer? If so how many? I want the graft union to be strong- I'm not sure if so much branching right at the union would make a weak structure.

Oh, and I'd heard honeykiss is harder to graft than other varieties- appears true for me. I had several Fairchild takes, but unfortunately all the honeykiss failed. Any tips on how to get honeykiss to take? I'd like to try again next time I can locate budwood.

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2018, 02:26:35 PM »
I would take out the most vigorous 1 or 2 (if you can tell), or ones that were growing in the same direction, or the ones in the middle. Your choice, but you don't need 5 coming from that scion. I might also wait for another flush before doing so, just in case the tree decides to prune a couple for you.

sapote

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2018, 05:55:27 PM »
Timing with the host plant flushing growth was perfect! I'm seeing growth on the Fairchild scions:
 




Honeykiss scions are still green and healthy looking but not growing yet - hopefully soon!

On these photos, did you un-tape and re-taped to let the new tiny shoots out of the covered tape? doing so at this stage could dislodge the scion leading to failed graft.

Bananimal

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2018, 06:40:40 PM »
My big Cogshall was knocked down by Irma.  I replaced it with a Sweet Tart.  I used to think my Pickering was my best tasting mango.  Not any more.  The ST is fantastic.  I hear the Lemon Zest is very good.  Any one agree?
Dan

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 08:36:13 AM »
LZ is fantastic. But I give the edge to Sweet Tart. Just pure all-rounded excellence.
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Brev Grower

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2018, 09:05:53 AM »
IMO LZ is much better than Sweet Tart! I am probably in the minority here though...  I almost think the sweet tart is too powerful. It's the last mango I eat at a sitting because it ruins the flavor of other mangoes. So I would say try before you buy a Sweet Tart. IOW, don't put any sweet tart on that Cogshall before you know what you're getting. I do think that Honey Kiss is a good cv. to put on the Cogshall. Disappointed to hear it might be more difficult to get takes with Honey Kiss. This is the first I heard of it...

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2018, 01:05:07 PM »
Yep - complete sand! Great info - I would never have guessed so much calcium! Is there any negative effect if you add too much?
OK. You must have really sandy soil. Might have to blitz it with calcium -- 100 pounds or so of gypsum. It was a bad jelly seed year this year. But, I don't recall my cogshall being bad this year. It was just a little low on the sugar.

Thanks. There is another thread with my attempts to improve the jelly seed. Calcium picking early etc - they help but don't fully eliminate the issue. Hoping the new varieties aren't so finicky to ripen properly.

I see youíre close by me over in Oviedo. What mangos are you growing and how have you been protecting them from cold? Iíve been wanting to try an inground mango for awhile. Only have enough room for one tree in a small space near the house.

The past several winters were warm, but I saw several healthy 15-20 foot mangos get killed to the ground by the moderate freezes earlier this year even with protection. They were kind of out in the open.

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2018, 08:18:30 PM »
Bev grower - thanks for the advise on removing shoots, I am going to do as you suggest and let it have another growth flush before doing the culling, and possibly waiting to spring.

I have had both lemon zest and sweet tart - both excellent but I prefer sweet tart. Unfortunately, those varieties are too vigorous for me to grow. I have to keep my trees at 6' to be able to frost protect. That really limits which varieties I can grow.

That made the honeykiss not taking especially frustrating, since it can be kept small. Pulling apart some of the failed grafts, it looks like lack of cambium contact was the issue, some minor fusing, just not enough. I suspect the issue is my lack of skill in making the cut on the host tree to the right depth. For I can get more budwood I want to try that coffin/grave method rather than veneer. Didn't see that method until after I grafted, I think I could get a better take rate that way. If anyone has budwood they can share please drop me a pm.

Indigoemu - I have Pickering, Manilita, Maha Chanok & this cogshall I'm top working. As you noted it is essential to cold protect, or trees will be killed outright. That pretty much means limiting to varieties that can be kept small. Now that my trees are established all I need is c9 old fashioned Xmas lights to protect from light frosts. For a hard freeze I put up a mini hoop house over each tree - made of plastic sheeting and pvc pipe with a trouble light inside - those have successfully protected at 26 degrees for multiple hours and below 32 for 10 hours straight. If you search the cold protection threads I think some of my pics are still around of that setup. If I could only have one tree here it would be the manilita - it stays smallest and is most productive. The fruit is pretty and is consistently good flavored. Obviously can't compete with something like ST for flavor, but miles better than a grocery store mango.

sunworshiper

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Re: Topworking cogshall
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2018, 08:23:32 PM »
Timing with the host plant flushing growth was perfect! I'm seeing growth on the Fairchild scions:
 




Honeykiss scions are still green and healthy looking but not growing yet - hopefully soon!

On these photos, did you un-tape and re-taped to let the new tiny shoots out of the covered tape? doing so at this stage could dislodge the scion leading to failed graft.

No, I carefully used a razor blade to knick a hole for the growth to push through. I have had zero luck with biodegradingn tape like parafilm, all grafts I've done with it failed. I instead use a Japanese bonsai grafting tape that is much cheaper and works better for me. It is very strong tho - so the shoots need help breaking through, and the tape has to be manually removed (probably not until spring).

 

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