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Author Topic: Annonaceae that are temperate  (Read 2859 times)

Perplexed

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Annonaceae that are temperate
« on: October 15, 2018, 09:26:45 PM »
What genera are temperate? Other than pawpaw.

KarenRei

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2018, 07:55:34 AM »
Oh geez... I'll try to remember this thread when I get home, I have a whole database of this sort of stuff.  :)
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Perplexed

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2018, 03:48:59 PM »
Alright thanks, the only problem If I do find them is the source of seeds

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 04:09:12 PM »
What u got up your sleeve?

I wasn't aware of any temperate annonaceae genera other than Asimina but I'm no expert whatsoever. As vast as the plant kingdom is, i'm likely to be overlooking a lot.

Now, we have some North American native Annona species like Annona glabra but of course it's not temperate (nor desirable for fruit).

KarenRei

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2018, 05:20:18 PM »
Awww..

Sorry to report, but I checked my database, and with 177 Annonaceae species in it, not a single one was even close to A. triloba in hardiness  :(  A. triloba's natural range averages a winter low of -4,9C. The next closest I have is Polyalthia cerasoides, but its average winter low is 7,4C, followed by Annona longiflora (8,4C), Annona stenophylla (8,7C), Annona rugulosa (9C), Guatteria carchiana (9,6C; afaik not edible), Xylopia odoratissima (9,7C), and Annona cherimola (10,5C).  So basically you have one standout, and things jump straight to "pretty tropical".

(My data in this regard comes from a program I wrote that crossreferences edible species lists, GBIF habitat data, and IPCC climate data)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:25:14 PM by KarenRei »
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Perplexed

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2018, 05:23:27 PM »
Awh well. I always wanted to find some tropical looking tree that is not usually planted in gardens that can survive in 7b/8a border.

KarenRei

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2018, 05:27:58 PM »
You'll have to look outside of annonaceae, unfortunately!  But feel free to assign me any database tasks you might have  :)
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nullzero

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2018, 11:57:31 PM »
Nice to hear about Annona stenophylla cold hardiness. I have a few seedlings they are being planted out in zone 10a. Should have to worry about the a rare frost event.
Grow mainly fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

KarenRei

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2018, 07:06:31 AM »
Nice to hear about Annona stenophylla cold hardiness. I have a few seedlings they are being planted out in zone 10a. Should have to worry about the a rare frost event.

I wouldn't call being native to an area with an average winter low of 8,7C cold hardy, but yeah, as far as annonas go, it's native to climates that are on the colder end of the spectrum.  It's not native to as high altitudes as cherimoya (500-1700m vs. 700-2400m) but it's less equatorial and more continental. Its range is densest in highlands in southeast Angola / far east Namibia / northern Botswana / southwestern Zambia, and these areas do get the occasional frost.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 07:16:15 AM by KarenRei »
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linsecte

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2019, 08:27:24 PM »
Is Annona stenophylla hardy -8C for branches or roots? does roots survive more severe frosts?
Could someone provide me seeds? i will buy or swap (ask my long list)
thank you  :D
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 08:31:58 PM by linsecte »

mikkel

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 02:49:01 AM »
As I understand it it is hardy to 8Celsius (which means no frost at all) 8C is 46.7Fahrenheit

NateTheGreat

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 12:10:53 PM »
I doubt that the hardiness of A. stenophylla has been tested much. Since it's rhizomatous, I wonder if it could tolerate much colder in a dormant state. I have one seedling, which took probably 5c in this its first winter before I moved it inside. Has not died back to the ground, though the uppermost leaf is slowly withering from the tip.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 12:17:44 PM by NateTheGreat »

mikkel

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2019, 12:59:30 PM »
5Celsius ?

NateTheGreat

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2019, 01:02:22 PM »

mikkel

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2019, 01:15:31 PM »
Do you suspect 5C a problem? It is no frost.

NateTheGreat

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2019, 01:27:20 PM »
No, but I wanted to play it safe the first year with the Eugenia calycinas that are in the same pot. A few of those had tip browning, and I figured I'd cold stressed them enough for their first winter. A. stenophylla seems tough so far; it hasn't ever shown any sign of discomfort until this leaf shriveling, and the leaves just feel tough, like those of an oak. Hopefully I get some more germination this year.

linsecte

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2019, 03:34:11 PM »
i understand now the temperatures Karenrei 16 oct 2018 wrote,  -5c for asimina triloba, +8c for A. stenophylla, and +10C for annona cherimola, are not the cold limit, but average of winter temperatures in their natural areas of repartition; average doesn't mean cold records, or temperature that makes loose leafes, or branches;
this cold limit is around -20 or -25C for asimina triloba, and between -5 and -10c for cherimolas;
in my place, one night per winter is -4 or -8c, but it usually never frost in the day, but in 2012 it was one hour -16c one night; one little plant that grows every spring from the roots is interesting to survive such exceptionnal records; so yes, i will be very interested to try A. stenophylla :)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 03:39:49 PM by linsecte »

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2019, 03:56:40 PM »
If the plants are potted, the roots are more fragile in the cold.
Your A. Stenophylla was he potted or in soil NateTheGreated?

If A. Stenophylla took 5 Celsius in Pot, then maybe in soil with mulch it would not have had a problem of recovery for this temperature.
Does it have the power to bloom on the branches of the year (newly released from the Earth by the rhizomes) in the same way as the fig trees or not?

Because in this eventuality it can be interesting to prune and spread mulch during the cold season.
See cover the trunk pruning with a protection.

NateTheGreat

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2019, 04:23:28 PM »
Lots of questions, glad I got people excited :D

On flowering on new year's growth, I have no experience, but per UsefulTropicalPlants, "Annona stenophylla is a low-growing perennial plant with spreading, underground woody rhizomes. Annual shoots up to 1 metre tall arise from the rhizome, these stems can be simple or branched and sometimes become woody and persist for more than one year" So it sounds like the answer is yes they normally fruit on first year growth. Source: http://tropical.theferns.info/viewtropical.php?id=Annona%20stenophylla

Here is a picture of it, yes in a pot. It's about 4 inches (10 cm) tall.


linsecte

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2019, 07:49:24 PM »
On 15, nate the grate answered his plant, of course, didn't have any damage at 5C

Guanabanus

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2019, 08:53:04 PM »
I don't go by average winter temperatures, or average lows either, when mentioning species as being from the Temperate Zone.  You see, there are different definitions.  Some climatologists claim that Washington,D.C., is Sub-Tropical;  others say, that, in the eastern United States, the southern edge of the Temperate Zone has been, at least until the last decade, near Cape Canaveral, Florida.  I hold with the latter. 

If there is a freeze ( a few minutes at 0 C / 32 F) some years, but not other years, that sounds Sub-Tropical to me.  If there is a freeze every year, I believe it to be Temperate Zone.

In southern Brazil, all of Uruguay, and well down into Argentina, there are several Annonaceae, including edible-fruited Rollinia species (Annona if you prefer), that survive and prosper through annual freezes in the low 20's F.  Same goes for several genera growing several-100 kilometers north of the southern border of China.

Some of the Cerrado-scrubland Annonaceae from the central plateau of Brazil, were probably in mild Temperate Zone during the last ice age.  Annona coriacea, "leather-leafed sop", can survive several hours at 25-degrees F. without damage even to the leaves.
Har

Triloba Tracker

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2019, 09:52:56 AM »
In southern Brazil, all of Uruguay, and well down into Argentina, there are several Annonaceae, including edible-fruited Rollinia species (Annona if you prefer), that survive and prosper through annual freezes in the low 20's F.  Same goes for several genera growing several-100 kilometers north of the southern border of China.

Very interesting! I wonder how these would do in the temperate U.S.
Kind of makes it seem, then, that the oft-repeated statment that Asimina triloba is the only temperate member of the "custard apple family" (annonaceae) is not accurate.

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2019, 01:47:45 PM »
Yes just like other tropical fruit trees.
Dimocarpus longan (-3 c to-5 c)
Persea americana (-5 c,-7 c to-9 c)
ETC etc just do some research to find them.

The problem is that the temperate regions are diverse and with temperature variations that make this classification (tropical tree and temperate tree) not accurate enough to be really useful.
Usually a tree classify tropical and plant in tropical region rarely poses problems when at its rusticity.
But for a temperate tree, if you only have this detail you can't be certain of the real rusticity of the tree.
Therefore it is necessary to test and observe the rusticity of each species in different situation.
wet temperate
warm temperate etc etc

Generally the temperate climate includes
Oceanic climate
Mediterranean climate
Humid subtropical climate
This gives with the various differences of each zone, large differences of rusticity and possibility of culture that can be adapted.

So yes Annona is valid for temperate climates like other tropical fruit trees.
also for me it is better to talk about rusticity for a species (temperate climate) because this is more accurate.
Or be more specific about the temperate zone in question.
Specifying whether it is for the oceanic climate, Mediterranean climate or other .
Or even specifying the USDA hardiness zone



Perplexed

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2019, 10:46:12 PM »
So what anonnia species do you think could survive 8a-9a ish? Maybe 7 but I doubt it.

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2019, 08:35:59 AM »
i understand now the temperatures Karenrei 16 oct 2018 wrote,  -5c for asimina triloba, +8c for A. stenophylla, and +10C for annona cherimola, are not the cold limit, but average of winter temperatures in their natural areas of repartition; average doesn't mean cold records, or temperature that makes loose leafes, or branches;
this cold limit is around -20 or -25C for asimina triloba, and between -5 and -10c for cherimolas;

in my place, one night per winter is -4 or -8c, but it usually never frost in the day, but in 2012 it was one hour -16c one night; one little plant that grows every spring from the roots is interesting to survive such exceptionnal records; so yes, i will be very interested to try A. stenophylla :)

Beware as I said the temperate zone has a lot of temperature Variant.
9B is a climate temperate also, a region with-3 c or-5 c is also an area with temperate climate.
And as the member linsecte says cherimola Annona can endure-3 c and even-5 c see more if it is not regular.
But can easily withstand regular freezing around 0 c and-3 c without problem, if there is a warming of the temperatures in the day.

I myself have Annona cherimola who resist a winter in pots and endure several days of snow.
And regular gels with temperature between 0 c and briefly at-5 c at night but the temperatures were generally positive the day.

So yes Annona cherimola can be cultivated in temperate climate. But this is not to say that in a temperate region with lower regular temperature this will succeed.

As the linsect Member also says, we should not confuse:
cold limit with average cold.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 08:42:31 AM by shiro »

usirius

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2019, 05:57:45 PM »
Two other robust Annona species:

Annona cacans (Paca Custard Apple, Araticum Cagao)
is to be said very cold tolerant - USDA-Zone 9, hardy to -3C
Data Source: http://www.sunshine-seeds.de/Annona-cacans-Raritaet-62589p.html

Annona crassiflora (Marolo, Araticum cortia, Araticum do cerrado or bruto)
is to be said very cold tolerant - USDA-Zone 9, hardy to -3C
Data Source: http://www.sunshine-seeds.de/Annona-crassiflora-Extrem-selten-62590p.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
just for comparison
same source writes concerning Annona cherimoya
Zone 10, 5C
Data Source: http://www.sunshine-seeds.de/Annona-cherimola*-44690p.html
May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears. N. Mandela

nexxogen

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2019, 06:45:31 AM »
i understand now the temperatures Karenrei 16 oct 2018 wrote,  -5c for asimina triloba, +8c for A. stenophylla, and +10C for annona cherimola, are not the cold limit, but average of winter temperatures in their natural areas of repartition; average doesn't mean cold records, or temperature that makes loose leafes, or branches;
this cold limit is around -20 or -25C for asimina triloba, and between -5 and -10c for cherimolas;

in my place, one night per winter is -4 or -8c, but it usually never frost in the day, but in 2012 it was one hour -16c one night; one little plant that grows every spring from the roots is interesting to survive such exceptionnal records; so yes, i will be very interested to try A. stenophylla :)

Beware as I said the temperate zone has a lot of temperature Variant.
9B is a climate temperate also, a region with-3 c or-5 c is also an area with temperate climate.
And as the member linsecte says cherimola Annona can endure-3 c and even-5 c see more if it is not regular.
But can easily withstand regular freezing around 0 c and-3 c without problem, if there is a warming of the temperatures in the day.

I myself have Annona cherimola who resist a winter in pots and endure several days of snow.
And regular gels with temperature between 0 c and briefly at-5 c at night but the temperatures were generally positive the day.

So yes Annona cherimola can be cultivated in temperate climate. But this is not to say that in a temperate region with lower regular temperature this will succeed.

As the linsect Member also says, we should not confuse:
cold limit with average cold.

Interestingly, my conditions are similar to yours and my 3 cherimoyas all got frozen to the ground this winter after only a couple of nights with sub zero temperatures.

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2019, 10:54:11 AM »
Strangely usirius your (data source) give another example just for comparison:

USDA-zone 9-, hardy to -5C
http://www.sunshine-seeds.de/Annona-cherimola-cv-Fino-de-Jete-53344p.html

Another link :
https://www.canarius.com/fr/plantes/annona-cherimola-fina-de-jete-.html

There it says -2.8C
https://growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/annonacherimolanew.htm

nexxogen:
Then you have to take into account the warming during the day.
How old was he at the time of planting?
Did you put any mulch in?

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2019, 11:33:24 AM »
For further information, the CRFG website gives as information:

Annona cherimola hardy to 25F (-3.8C )
and Annona montana hardy to 23F ( -5C ).
https://crfg.org/home/library/crfg-fruit-list/fruit-cultural-data-2/fruit-cultural-data/

I think certain conditions like the amount of water in the soil can also influence cold resistance.
But others can certainly play a role: Espalier plantation protected by a wall, mulch, pruning in early autumn to stop vegetation and strengthen wood etc...
This winter I would take pictures with thermometer show the results.

usirius

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2019, 02:55:31 PM »
Strangely usirius your (data source) give another example just for comparison:

USDA-zone 9-, hardy to -5C
http://www.sunshine-seeds.de/Annona-cherimola-cv-Fino-de-Jete-53344p.html

Another link :
https://www.canarius.com/fr/plantes/annona-cherimola-fina-de-jete-.html

There it says -2.8C
https://growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/annonacherimolanew.htm


@SHiro: You are right - but this data belong to the special local selection of Annona cherimola "fina de jete"
May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears. N. Mandela

Guanabanus

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2019, 09:39:59 AM »
High concentrations of sugars and of mineral nutrients, in general, lower the freeze points of cells and sap.

High concentrations of Silicon, Calcium, and Copper harden surfaces;  this reduces penetration by crystals of frost.
Har

nexxogen

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2019, 09:13:28 AM »
nexxogen:
Then you have to take into account the warming during the day.
How old was he at the time of planting?
Did you put any mulch in?

On those cold days, I don't think that daily highs exceeded 8C, sometimes even less. But generally, during January which is the coldest month, daily highs are around 12C.
The trees were about 3 year old seedlings I believe. They were over 1.7m tall. I did not mulch at all. Maybe it's worth mentioning that winters here are very rainy.

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2019, 03:03:23 PM »
Strangely usirius your (data source) give another example just for comparison:

USDA-zone 9-, hardy to -5C
http://www.sunshine-seeds.de/Annona-cherimola-cv-Fino-de-Jete-53344p.html

Another link :
https://www.canarius.com/fr/plantes/annona-cherimola-fina-de-jete-.html

There it says -2.8C
https://growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/annonacherimolanew.htm


@SHiro: You are right - but this data belong to the special local selection of Annona cherimola "fina de jete"


Yes you are right it is a selection but what does it change?
This proves that cherimola is capable of being more rustic than we think.
Any cultivar is derived from the selection of a species (x) for the qualities it possesses, hardiness, taste, vigour of the tree etc.
So whether it's el bumpo, fino de jete or whatever it's still an cherimola tree.
That's why selection is important.
Important in the choice of the fruit from which the seeds have recovered.
In the choice of cultivars and if possible where it grows.

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2019, 03:46:12 PM »
nexxogen:
Then you have to take into account the warming during the day.
How old was he at the time of planting?
Did you put any mulch in?

On those cold days, I don't think that daily highs exceeded 8C, sometimes even less. But generally, during January which is the coldest month, daily highs are around 12C.
The trees were about 3 year old seedlings I believe. They were over 1.7m tall. I did not mulch at all. Maybe it's worth mentioning that winters here are very rainy.

Indeed this is important because just like many tropical trees, if the water is too important in winter I notice that the roots risk rotting.
If the roots die, the tree too.
This is why a good mulch (10 cm) allows (in my orchard) to avoid this problem.
This also prevents the soil from freezing and thus protects the roots when the tree is young.
Often too much moisture (air as soil) can kill the tree. I see it regularly with the grenadiers too.
The same temperature (- 7C) can kill the tree if the humidity is too high, whereas elsewhere it will not necessarily be the case.
This moisture problem, I also observe with palm trees.
If the humidity is too high a slight protection is may be helpful.
 


All the fruit

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2019, 06:18:34 AM »
Maybe it would be more practical to ask "Which tasty Annonaceae do you think could survive the climate of Snellville, Georgia and fruit there without protection and where can we get some good quality seeds?"
Btw i would like to ask the same question about Heidelberg, Germany. 8a, good for figs, kaki and suchlike, pretty atlantic climate, less sunshine than average 8a in the eastern US since much farther north.

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2019, 10:39:51 AM »
Here is the link to a colleague's website
http://fruitforestier.info/fr/annona-cherimola-cherimoya/

Then I'll say it again but moisture plays an important role in the tree's ability to withstand negative temperatures.
There is a big difference between dry and wet cold.
And between these two extremes you can have successes or not depending on the humidity.

Phoenix dactilifera is resistant to -9C in dry cold and can die at -4C depending on the amount of moisture.

And between an urban city and the countryside or between an orchard located near a lake and another in the same city locate but further away from the lake there will also be differences.

Palms, cacti, citrus fruits etc several factors may or may not play a role in success.
Of course there are some confidential varieties that are proven to be tolerant to certain temperatures for a certain period of time.

In short, those who want more information can already read the 2 links that have followed.
The first for cherimoliers and the second for avocados.

https://www.greffer.net/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=3820&start=1
https://www.greffer.net/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=4477&start=1

These 2 links are those of a French forum whose members do important research on cultivars that tolerate cold.
Of course you have to read the discussions like the ones found here.


« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 10:44:48 AM by shiro »

shiro

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Re: Annonaceae that are temperate
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2020, 11:49:56 AM »
For information at All the fruit and usirius.
My colleague is currently proposing seeds and scions of varieties that have withstood fairly severe cold waves.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=35960.0

You can also ask him that it species survived such and such a temperature.
But remember that there are limits to the resistance to cold so if you are looking for varieties resistant to -15C or -20C it will be difficult to find some.
Then you also have to take into account the duration of the cold if it lasts 1 night or 2 weeks it is not the same thing.

At home the temperatures can go down to -10C but it's quite rare.
In your area it's probably more frequent, so a little protection is always a good thing. 

 

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