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Author Topic: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia  (Read 2863 times)

Patanax

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Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« on: October 25, 2018, 06:20:09 PM »
Hello,

I am looking for seeds of temperate climate Eriobotrya species, so relatives of Eriobotrya japonica (Loquat).

I've come across this interesting paper on breeding loquats:
https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/pdfs/breeding-loquat-pbr37.pdf

On page 11 and 12 they talk about the possibility of using wild Loquat species as rootstock for commercial Loquat production and mention Eriobotrya fragrans as an even cold-hardier species than japonica, although the native distribution area in Guangdong makes this seem unlikely? Anybody who lives in a colder climate in East Asia and wants to send me some seeds of Loquat relatives? Buy or trade.

Perplexed

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2018, 09:23:02 AM »
I'm also interested in that too, for temperate species of that genus.

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2018, 09:27:05 PM »
So I made a non-scientific list of some Eriobotrya species and their USDA hardiness zones, based on sources I found online. So far it looks like E. fragrans would be the most promising species in terms of hardiness.

Scientific nameUSDA Zones
Eriobotrya bengalensis9/10
Eriobotrya cavaleriei8/9/10
Eriobotrya deflexa9/10/11
Eriobotrya elliptica8/9/10
Eriobotrya fragrans5/8/9/10/11
Eriobotrya henryi9/10
Eriobotrya japonica8/9/10
Eriobotrya malipoensis10
Eriobotrya obovata9
Eriobotrya prinoides8/9/10
Eriobotrya salwinensis9
Eriobotrya seguinii9/10
Eriobotrya serrata9/10
Eriobotrya tengyuehensis9/10

Sources
Atlas of Woody Plants in China: Distribution and Climate, Volume 1https://books.google.at/books?id=rXTGyOlDjdoC&pg=PA515#v=onepage&q&f=false
China Plant Hardiness Zone Maphttps://www.backyardgardener.com/garden-forum-education/hardiness-zones/china-hardiness-zone-map/

Perplexed

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 04:08:36 PM »
USDA Zone 5? Foreal?

NateTheGreat

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2018, 12:37:47 AM »
Yeah that doesn't look right. Why would it be 5/8/9... and not 5/6/7/8/9...? It looks like they're native to the mountainous southern China and northern Vietnam at around 850m. From what I've read that area doesn't get that cold, probably somewhere around -2 C or so annual low. From what I've read loquat (japonica) grows in Seattle, but only sometimes sets fruit there, and that's 8b, almost 9a. If I were you, I'd be looking for one with a native range farther north. Seems like Eriobotrya hookeriana or Eriobotrya petiolata might have potential, as they're from the eastern Himalayas. I see hookeriana is reported to grow in a city called Trongsa. From the climate data there: https://weatherspark.com/y/111894/Average-Weather-in-Trongsa-Bhutan-Year-Round it looks like they dip into the teens (F), so maybe like -8C? It can probably take a bit below that, but maybe not 14C, to get to 7a.

If you're just looking for rootstock, quince works and is hardy below 7a, but from what I've read the loquat flowers wouldn't set fruit if they freeze.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 12:49:02 AM by NateTheGreat »

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2018, 05:04:25 AM »
Well, I made the list using the two sites below, one being a book with some Eriobotrya species and their distribution in China (not neighboring countries) and the other being a USDA zone map of China. I couldn't find any ready-to-use zone information for most species (other than japonica and deflexa), probably because those species aren't being cultivated outside their native range.

If you look at the uppermost left spot for E. fragrans in the book and compare it to the zone map, that area is supposedly zone 5. The rest of its native distribution area is zone 8+ though, so I didn't write the zones inbetween.

Established E. japonica trees are hardy to about 12°F (-11°C), so zone 8a. According to the paper from my first post, E. fragrans is hardier than japonica. Probably not zone 5 though.

Regarding fruit in colder climates, at least E. japonica, the regular loquat, has an unusual flowering habit in that they flower in fall and bear fruit in spring. So in any area that has temperatures below about 27°F (-3°C) in winter, fruit is unlikely. But you can still grow the plants themselves, e.g. as evergreen ornamental. In the best case, there would be a hardier relative of japonica that flowers in spring and bears edible fruits in fall. But I would be happy with anything that is a bit hardier than japonica, so that I could attempt growing it in zone 7 with protection.

The paper mentions quince rootstock on page 11, stating that is is mostly used for its dwarfing effects in commercial fruit production but that it isn't compatible with all varieties and leads to zinc deficiency in the plant. Do you think it would make the trees hardier? Aren't they more resistant to the cold on their own roots?

Also, thanks for the suggestions, I'll have to look up E. hookeriana and E. petiolata :D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 05:30:30 AM by Patanax »

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2018, 07:17:45 AM »
Some information about Eriobotrya elliptica and hookeriana in (Nepal):
http://www.floraofnepal.org/onlineflora?wildcard=10149
http://www.floraofnepal.org/onlineflora?wildcard=12672

And in comparison the hardiness zones of Nepal. https://davisla.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/india-pakistan-bangladesh-nepal-plant-hardiness-zone-map.jpg
Both of them can also be found in the north of the country, where the hardiness zone is 6.
So Eriobotrya elliptica, fragrans and hookeriana should be a good choice. But I have no idea when they flower and fruit.
The other problem is, where do we get those species? The area where E.fragrans occurs in zone 5 (China) is not that populated.
For the species of nepal, I wrote to a nursery in Patlekhet, Nepal, but until now they have not responded.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2018, 07:33:30 AM »
I have overlooked the flowering and fruiting time, sorry.
E.hookeriana flowers october-november and fruits march-june. Whereas E.elliptica flowers in april and fruits in june.
So E.elliptica would be the better option. Or is hookeriana better? I think it depends on how frost hardy the flowers are and if the frost risk in your area is higher from october to november or in april.
With regard to E.fragrans, I don`t know anything about flowering or fruiting time.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 07:54:24 AM by Mangifera08 »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 05:46:01 PM »
 I found a few japonica plants over the last years around here in northern Germany. Cold hardiness seems to be fair enough. Just some weeks ago I found a small tree in a village nearby. The owner told me it is around 8 years old.
In the yard of the town house here in Luneburg there were real trees up to 3-4 m high until 2 years ago when they were cut down.
We are in USDA zone 7.
What is missing is a variety which flowers in late spring. E. elliptica sounds interesting.
I was thinking about an hybrid variety called "coppertone". Might be different? Any experience?

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 06:07:59 PM »
A paper about crossbreeding Eriobotrya

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 08:25:28 AM »
Nice to hear about the Eriobotrya japonica trees doing well in zone 7(a). Some resources say that they are just hardy until zone 8(a), but I think older plants will be hardy until Zone 7.
The hybrid called Eriobotrya 'Coppertone' is a hybrid between Eriobotrya deflexa and the Indian hawthorn (Rhaphiolepis indica), so not a true Eriobotrya. Coppertone is said to be cold hardy until Zone 8a, but the advantage is that the bloom is in spring. The fruits are also edible. E.deflexa is a really bad crossing partner if you want a cold hardy hybrid, because it is distributed in warm zones like 9, 10 and 11. https://books.google.at/books?id=rXTGyOlDjdoC&pg=PA515&fbclid=IwAR2gcYSS6BvPlgO1ytIFTjMpiw5bpHaxV-DJD_yWYoyHLE0rgRwb_1eYQlU#v=onepage&q&f=true
Some also say that Coppertone is a hybrid between E.japonica and Rhaphiolepsis indica. (What would be a bit better, because E.japonica is hardier).
Rhaphiolepsis indica itself is hardy until zone 7(a) or 8(a) (statements vary).
All a bit cold hardy, but nothing really hardy. A Coppertone hybrid (with E.japonica in it) could be worth a try. But if we could get our hands on species like Eriobotrya fragrans, elliptica or hookeriana, that would be a real game changer.


NateTheGreat

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 11:35:23 AM »
There are a lot of the 'coppertone's planted in my area. They're usually called bronze loquat out here. They're also called fruitless loquats I think. I think they have very small fruits, with barely any flesh. I'm not certain, but they're certainly not something I ever thought had potential as an edible.

Edit: Maybe coppertone and bronze are different. I believe these are a hybrid with R. indica, not sure with which Eriobotrya species.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 04:08:31 PM by NateTheGreat »

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2018, 12:57:10 PM »
Hello, sorry for the late answer, I didn't have time up until now.

@Mangifera08

Unfortunately, it seems that E. Elliptica is not very hardy. I found a paper about a specimen in the Kew Royal Botanical Gardens in London with lots of information. They mention that it is too frost-tender for a cultivation in Britain, which is an important information considering that the regular loquat, E. japonica, is hardy through most of the UK (according to the Royal Horticultural Society).

https://eurekamag.com/pdf/003/003435038.pdf
https://www.kew.org/kew-gardens/attractions/temperate-house
https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/6735/i-Eriobotrya-japonica-i-(F)/Details

E. fragrans flowers in Apr–May and fruits in Aug–Sep.
E. petiolata, which was mentioned earlier, flowers in March-May.

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200010832
https://biodiversity.bt/species/show/6267

@mikkel

In January I also found a several years old loquat at a community garden in Vienna. Unfortunately, when I came back to take a look at it again in summer, they had cut it down because it got too big for the limitations in the community garden and had never borne fruit...

https://imgur.com/a/jiAdZ2S

The winters in the city are definitely milder by a few degrees though.

I've heard of "Coppertone", but there are various sources giving different information. Many nurseries seem to either sell a regular E. japonica cultivar under the name Coppertone or have mixed up their description text and pictures with E. japonica. For Coppertone, you can find everything from "flowers in fall and bears edible fruit in spring" to "flowers in spring but doesn't form fruit at all".

I found this paper, but it is also very vague. It doesn't mention the flowering time but says that Coppertone doesn't form fruit at all. Anybody who can confirm/deny this?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253330818_An_intergeneric_hybrid_between_Eriobotrya_and_Rhaphiolepis

E. deflexa itself isn't very hardy though, so even if Coppertone is a bit hardier because of its other parent (most likely R. indica?), I doubt it would do well in colder climates.

@NateTheGreat
Bronze loquat is the common name for E. deflexa. Coppertone is a hybrid, most likely between E. deflexa and Rhaphiolepis indica.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 10:26:29 AM by Patanax »

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 08:20:30 AM »
Yes it seems like the individual plant at Kew is not at all hardy. But in the paper they mention:„Seeds were gathered by him at Phulchoke, to the south-southeast of Kathmandu on the road from Lalitpur, due east of Godawari.” (Which, I think is hardiness zone 8 or 9).
What I think is really strange is that it just can tolerate temperatures down to 7 °C (44,6 °F). That would be even to frost tender for zone 10. (The warmest hardiness zone in Nepal).
But how I wrote earlier, the species is distributed in different hardiness zones, even in hardiness zone 6. http://www.floraofnepal.org/onlineflora?wildcard=10149
If you take seeds from a individual in the north (hardiness zone 6), the plant should grow well in zone 7.
Thank you very much for the flowering and fruiting information for E.fragrans and petiolata, but unfortunately I cant open the first link.(That one: http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200010832)

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 08:29:25 PM »
Good point @Mangifera08, I had not considered the possibility that it could just be a specimen from the warmer regions and not represent the full hardiness potential of E. Elliptica. After all, they talk about the same thing for E. japonica cultivars in the Breeding Loquats paper on page 10.

The link works fine for me. Maybe try another browser or disable some browser extensions? Here is a screenshot of the page: https://imgur.com/a/kQkp5Fo

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 09:03:28 AM »
Thank you very much for the screenshot, since I tried to open it with another browser, but it doesn`t work. Thanks for mentioning this page of the paper. I thought that every older loquat would do fine in zone 7, especially if it is crossed with another hardier species. (Maybe they do, if they have a very hardy crossing partner). But in case you want to breed a Eriobotrya, that is as hardy as possible, you should also choose a Loquat cultivar, which is as hardy as possible.

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 07:05:57 PM »
Great news, it appears I am not the only one who had this idea. There is very recent research into producing loquat hybrids to shift the flowering period into spring and create more cold hardy specimen which "could even enlarge the cultivated area of loquats" :D

Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (E. japonica) and bengal loquat (E. bengalensis)
https://www.pakbs.org/pjbot/papers/1497347472.pdf

As this paper is only from last year, the trees haven't yet grown up and flowered or born fruit. So the results are still unkown. Perhaps we will see new hybrid cultivars from this breeding effort in the coming years. Pretty exciting to be so up-to-date with current research ;D

In combination with the many hybrids that were mentioned in the paper @mikkel linked, development seems pretty promising.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468014117300304/pdfft?md5=cb457e9a41a9d334bfffee3e7b03778e&pid=1-s2.0-S2468014117300304-main.pdf

I also found a paper about natural hybridization between E. japonica and E. prinoides. Unfortunately, E. prinoides also flowers in winter, which is why they could hybridize naturally in the first place, but which also makes it less suitable for cultivation in colder climates.

Molecular evidence for natural hybridization between wild loquat (E. japonica) and its relative E. prinoides
https://bmcplantbiol.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s12870-014-0275-6
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 03:57:25 AM by Patanax »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 06:39:34 AM »
But in case you want to breed a Eriobotrya, that is as hardy as possible, you should also choose a Loquat cultivar, which is as hardy as possible.
japanese genebank NARO has several accessions of Eriobotrya. if there is no import restriction they can send worldwide.
Evaluation data for each accession is useful.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 11:35:34 AM by mikkel »

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 09:21:08 PM »
E. Japonica is not so much the problem as I can't find a source for any of the other species 😅

I have written requests for E. elliptica and E. fragrans at bgci.org. Let's see if I get any answers ;)

http://www.bgci.org/plant_search.php?page=1&ftrFamily=&ftrExcludeCultivar=Y&ftrRedList=&ftrGenus=eriobotrya&ftrRedList1997=&ftrSpecies=&ftrEpithet=&ftrGardenID=&ftrPagerLimit=20&ftrCWR=&ftrMedicinal=&ftrGTC=&action=Find#results

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2019, 12:52:19 PM »


How do you get accessions via bgci? Do they send seeds or cuttings? Do you have rootstocks?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 01:15:58 PM by mikkel »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2019, 01:11:02 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 01:15:08 PM by mikkel »

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2019, 02:43:15 PM »
How do you get accessions via bgci? Do they send seeds or cuttings? Do you have rootstocks?

You can make a request for certain plants and BGCI sends your request to botanical gardens that have this plant in their collection. If a botanical garden is interested, they can contact you via email. I haven't used the BGCI website before, I only found them via Google.

I have five seedling loquats (E. Japonica) that I could use as rootstock. I could also buy a quince from a local nursery. But if the two listed botanical gardens that have those species are located in Asia, seeds are probably the only way. I don't think shipping scions from e.g. China to Austria would work out.

But I need to get a reply first 😅

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2019, 10:43:49 AM »
So I wrote the corresponding author of the paper "Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (E. japonica) and bengal loquat (E. bengalensis)" and asked him about the progress of the project. While he is already working in another area, he sent me a link to a news article.

Original: https://sichuan.scol.com.cn/yaxw/201806/56299857.html
Google Translate: https://translate.google.at/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsichuan.scol.com.cn%2Fyaxw%2F201806%2F56299857.html

Apparently the hybrid trees mentioned in the paper have already flowered and fruited twice and produced tasty loquats. From what I've understood via Google/Bing Translate, they flower in March (the text also mentions April?) and produce fruit in June. Their current temporary cultivar name is "Spring Blossoms" loquat ('春花'枇杷) and the trees are located at the scientific research park of Sichuan Agricultural University. The team is currently trying to graft them on regular loquat cultivars. Can anybody who speaks Chinese confirm (regarding April)?

So I guess there are spring-blooming loquats now :D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:45:40 AM by Patanax »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2019, 03:08:08 PM »
Yes it is hard to understand. Someone is going to China in near future...  :)

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2019, 05:01:30 PM »
So I wrote the corresponding author of the paper "Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (E. japonica) and bengal loquat (E. bengalensis)" and asked him about the progress of the project. While he is already working in another area, he sent me a link to a news article.

Original: https://sichuan.scol.com.cn/yaxw/201806/56299857.html
Google Translate: https://translate.google.at/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsichuan.scol.com.cn%2Fyaxw%2F201806%2F56299857.html

Apparently the hybrid trees mentioned in the paper have already flowered and fruited twice and produced tasty loquats. From what I've understood via Google/Bing Translate, they flower in March (the text also mentions April?) and produce fruit in June. Their current temporary cultivar name is "Spring Blossoms" loquat ('春花'枇杷) and the trees are located at the scientific research park of Sichuan Agricultural University. The team is currently trying to graft them on regular loquat cultivars. Can anybody who speaks Chinese confirm (regarding April)?

So I guess there are spring-blooming loquats now :D

Wow, that sounds great! March is still to early (ad least in zone 7a), but it`s a huge step in the right direction. Thank you very much for informing you about the progress of the project.

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2019, 05:16:47 PM »
Wow, that sounds great! March is still to early (ad least in zone 7a), but it`s a huge step in the right direction. Thank you very much for informing you about the progress of the project.

Well, their growing season is longer. Maybe they would start flowering later in other areas if it's still cold there in March? The question is also how hardy those hybrids are. E. bengalensis is a zone 9 plant from what I can see. Maybe you could cross back to E. Japonica while keeping the spring-blooming habit? It would also be interesting to try a similar cross with one of the cold-hardier spring-blooming species (E. fragrans, E. elliptica, E. petiolata).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 07:46:11 PM by Patanax »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2019, 12:10:15 AM »
another species of Eriobotrya from South China. it is flowering in April.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2019, 08:05:55 AM »
@Patanax
Yes, maybe they would flower later if it would be to cold in march. I haven`t thought about this. But maybe if there would be a warm and sunny period for a few weeks in march, they would think: „Oh, the winter is over, the cold temperatures are gone”, and would start flowering. These flowers would then get completely destroyed, when the warmer weeks would be over, and it would get cold again.
Yes, the hardiness would be the next difficulty. This hybrid is maybe not hardy enough. (Since it`s probably a cross of a subtropical/southern group cultivar with E. bengalensis). Backcrossing with E. japonica is maybe not such a good idea, because all E. japonica flower in winter. So the cross would probably flower in between the two parents, therefore in February or so. (The flowering time would be developed in the false direction). On the opposite a backcross with E. fragrans or E. elliptica would be a good idea. (By the way, what do you mean with: „It would also be interesting to try a similar cross with one of the cold-hardier spring-blooming species”? Do you mean to cross E. japonica with one of the cold hardy species, or do you mean to cross the Spring Blossoms hybrid (japonica x bengalensis) with one of the cold hardy species?)
And one last question, do you know how he was able to accomplish that his hybrid flowers in march? (Since E. bengalensis flowers Nov-Feb, and E. japonica normally flowers in late autumn or winter). Did he selected the hybrids for late blooming?

@mikkel thank you for your information, E. fulvicoma (zone 10) is even less hardier then E. bengalensis (zone 9), but the late flowering is definitely a trade, that makes this species very attractive for crossing with other species.
 

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2019, 01:31:15 PM »
It seems Eriobotrya species beside japonica are very rare. I made an request via bgci one species was only available in 2 BG`s an other only at one BG.
It seems nearly impossible to get these species as an amateur gardener.
Just in case does someone ever tried to graft on Crataegus and other rootstocks?

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2019, 05:21:39 PM »
Just in case does someone ever tried to graft on Crataegus and other rootstocks?

The "Breeding loquat" paper lists many different rootstocks for loquat, including Crataegus. Only as "being in evaluation", but that should mean that they are at least somewhat compatible.

Page 5:
"E. deflexa and E. prinoides have been used as rootstock, but they are less widely used than Photinia serrulata Lindl. in China and Cydonia, Malus, Pyrus, and Pyracantha in Mediterranean regions."

Page 11:
"There are reports of other rosaceous species being evaluated as rootstocks for loquat in various countries. These include hawthorn (Crataegus scabrifolia Rehd.), apple (Malus x domestica Borkh.), fire-thorn (Pyracantha fortuneana Roem.), medlar (Mespilus vulgaris Rchb.], pear (Pyrus communis L.), Chinese photinia (Photinia serrulata Lindl.), and quince (Cydonia oblonga Mill.)."

@Patanax
Yes, maybe they would flower later if it would be to cold in march. I haven`t thought about this. But maybe if there would be a warm and sunny period for a few weeks in march, they would think: „Oh, the winter is over, the cold temperatures are gone”, and would start flowering. These flowers would then get completely destroyed, when the warmer weeks would be over, and it would get cold again.

Yes, that could happen. We don't know until somebody tries it... :D

This hybrid is maybe not hardy enough. (Since it`s probably a cross of a subtropical/southern group cultivar with E. bengalensis).

Yes, the loquat cultivars that were used for the cross are "Dawuxing" and "4-1-5". Dawuxing is actually listed as the example for the southern cultivar group, which is less hardy than the northern group, in the "Breeding loquat" paper. I can't find any information on the white-fleshed 4-1-5 cultivar though.

Backcrossing with E. japonica is maybe not such a good idea, because all E. japonica flower in winter. So the cross would probably flower in between the two parents, therefore in February or so. (The flowering time would be developed in the false direction). On the opposite a backcross with E. fragrans or E. elliptica would be a good idea.

I don't know how flowering time is regulated in the genes in loquat and what determines if a cross has the flowering time of either one of the parents or a different time altogether, but I wouldn't assume that all crosses would flower in e.g. February as that is the middle between the parents. If that were true, then creating the Spring Blossoms hybrid would not have worked in the first place.

We only want one trait from E. bengalensis, which is its spring-blooming habit. It's less hardy than E. japonica and I don't know if it produces desireable fruit. A backcross with E. japonica would ensure good edibility, better hardiness, and less unrelated E. bengalensis genes. In the offspring between the hybrid and E. japonica there would surely be winter-blooming plants, but the question is if there are still some that flower in the spring. Those would be superior plants, which are even closer to E. japonica while still keeping the valuable spring-blooming habit.

I would not cross the hybrid with other wild relatives which further decreases edibility and deviates from regular loquat. A complex hybrid with many different species and a majority of wild genes doesn't seem neccessary when a first generation hybrid with E. japonica already has the spring-blooming trait. I'd rather cross a northern E. japonica cultivar with E. fragrans, E. elliptica or E. petiolata if I have access to those.

(By the way, what do you mean with: „It would also be interesting to try a similar cross with one of the cold-hardier spring-blooming species”? Do you mean to cross E. japonica with one of the cold hardy species, or do you mean to cross the Spring Blossoms hybrid (japonica x bengalensis) with one of the cold hardy species?)

I meant a cross between E. japonica and another cold-hardy, spring-blooming relative. So e.g. E. japonica x E. fragrans.

And one last question, do you know how he was able to accomplish that his hybrid flowers in march? (Since E. bengalensis flowers Nov-Feb, and E. japonica normally flowers in late autumn or winter). Did he selected the hybrids for late blooming?

I also found sources that state that E. bengalensis flowers in the winter, but according to the paper, they chose E. bengalensis as a hybrid partner for E. japonica particulary because it flowers in the spring. I don't know why e.g. Flora of China states that they flower in the winter... ???

Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (Eriobotrya japonica Lindl.) and Bengal loquat (E. bengalensis Hook.), Page 1:
"Bengal loquat (E. bengalensis Hook.) blooms in March and April and ripens in July and August in China, is considered a valuable genetic resource for breeding spring-flowering E. japonica cultivars which can avoid cold injury in winter."

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2019, 05:54:33 AM »

I don't know how flowering time is regulated in the genes in loquat and what determines if a cross has the flowering time of either one of the parents or a different time altogether, but I wouldn't assume that all crosses would flower in e.g. February as that is the middle between the parents. If that were true, then creating the Spring Blossoms hybrid would not have worked in the first place.

We only want one trait from E. bengalensis, which is its spring-blooming habit. It's less hardy than E. japonica and I don't know if it produces desireable fruit. A backcross with E. japonica would ensure good edibility, better hardiness, and less unrelated E. bengalensis genes. In the offspring between the hybrid and E. japonica there would surely be winter-blooming plants, but the question is if there are still some that flower in the spring. Those would be superior plants, which are even closer to E. japonica while still keeping the valuable spring-blooming habit.

You could be right. Most of them would probably flower in between, but there could be some that flower at a different time.
This could work out. As you said, the fruits, would be even better than from the Spring Blossoms hybrid, because the resulting hybrid would have less E. bengalensis genes.

I would not cross the hybrid with other wild relatives which further decreases edibility and deviates from regular loquat. A complex hybrid with many different species and a majority of wild genes doesn't seem neccessary when a first generation hybrid with E. japonica already has the spring-blooming trait. I'd rather cross a northern E. japonica cultivar with E. fragrans, E. elliptica or E. petiolata if I have access to those.

I have to agree totally. Yes, crossing a nothern E. japonica cultivar with one of the spring blooming cold hardier species, seems to be a far better idea.

I also found sources that state that E. bengalensis flowers in the winter, but according to the paper, they chose E. bengalensis as a hybrid partner for E. japonica particulary because it flowers in the spring. I don't know why e.g. Flora of China states that they flower in the winter... ???

The information about flowering/fruiting of different Eriobotrya species is very confusing. I thought for example that E. japonica always flowers in winter, but Flora of China says that E. japonica flowers in June (and fruits Jul-Aug). I don`t know exactly why, but it seems that the same species in China has a completely other flowering (and fruiting) time in Europe or America. Additonally there comes a difference in flowering time, depending on the (hardiness) zone. The same species probably flowers earlier in the warmer areas of its range. But I don`t think that the zone difference is the only reason for the difference in flowering (,fruiting) time. Therefore it could be, or more likely has to be that other Eriobotrya species planted here, also flower at a different time than Flora of China says.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2019, 06:00:21 AM »
After long searching I found this article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287594421_%27Piera%27_A_new_everflowering_loquat_variety
It talks about the (algerian) Loquat variety called „Piera”, which blooms and ripens fruit throughout the whole year.
This trait could make it possible to grow Loquat in colder zones. I also think that this cultivar could cope with our winters, since it`s a pure E. japonica (not crossed with cold sensitive species like E. bengalensis).
Until now I could not find this cultivar, but if more people search for it, the chance to find it is much higher.

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2019, 08:58:12 PM »
After long searching I found this article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287594421_%27Piera%27_A_new_everflowering_loquat_variety
It talks about the (algerian) Loquat variety called „Piera”, which blooms and ripens fruit throughout the whole year.
This trait could make it possible to grow Loquat in colder zones. I also think that this cultivar could cope with our winters, since it`s a pure E. japonica (not crossed with cold sensitive species like E. bengalensis).
Until now I could not find this cultivar, but if more people search for it, the chance to find it is much higher.


I also came across this paper but was unable to find much other information on the cultivar. Sadly even the paper itself is behind a paywall. But now I found a description of the cultivar on the website of a Spanish loquat germplasm bank. It seems to confirm its everflowering habit:

http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163110574/EJ081_Piera.pdf/4573833b-5f12-43e2-922a-98466ec6881b
http://www.ivia.gva.es/ca/banco-de-germoplasma-de-nispero

The cultivar is grown in Italy and Spain, so maybe someone could send us scion wood or potted plants. I will try contacting some nurseries in south tyrol and ask them if they have access to it.

I also asked for scions here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31185
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 09:09:45 PM by Patanax »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2019, 04:38:31 AM »
Is there a chance to ask IVIA for it?

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2019, 06:49:35 AM »
I also came across this paper but was unable to find much other information on the cultivar. Sadly even the paper itself is behind a paywall. But now I found a description of the cultivar on the website of a Spanish loquat germplasm bank. It seems to confirm its everflowering habit:

http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163110574/EJ081_Piera.pdf/4573833b-5f12-43e2-922a-98466ec6881b
http://www.ivia.gva.es/ca/banco-de-germoplasma-de-nispero

The cultivar is grown in Italy and Spain, so maybe someone could send us scion wood or potted plants. I will try contacting some nurseries in south tyrol and ask them if they have access to it.

I also asked for scions here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31185


Wow, that`s great! If „Piera” is grown in Spain and Italy, it should be much easier to find it. I will search for spanish nurseries, and try to contact people form Spain and Italy. I think we will find this cultivar soon. (I`ve just noticed that ivia says that „Piera” originated in Spain, whereas the article says it is from Algeria. But I think it is the same cultivar.)

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2019, 07:06:18 AM »
Is there a chance to ask IVIA for it?
Yes, we can contact them and ask them if they could for example send us scions.
(I could even write them in spanish, but I`m pretty sure they also understand english)

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2019, 09:16:43 PM »
Is there a chance to ask IVIA for it?
Yes, we can contact them and ask them if they could for example send us scions.
(I could even write them in spanish, but I`m pretty sure they also understand english)

Supposedly they only work with firms, we would not be be the first ones to try it...

https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/blueberry-home/424281-loquats-trees-grafting-new-varieties-video?p=425747#post425747

But we should try it anyway :D
Do you want to write them in Spanish @Magnifera08?

Wow, that`s great! If „Piera” is grown in Spain and Italy, it should be much easier to find it. I will search for spanish nurseries, and try to contact people form Spain and Italy. I think we will find this cultivar soon. (I`ve just noticed that ivia says that „Piera” originated in Spain, whereas the article says it is from Algeria. But I think it is the same cultivar.)

Ok, I have also written a few nurseries in South Tyrol.

The paper states that Piera is a bud mutation of the cultivar 'Algerie'. That's the name of another cultivar, they don't mean the country Algeria. The IVIA website actually has 'Algerie' in their collection as well, but it doesn't have the same flowering properties as 'Piera' so it's not that interesting.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2019, 06:39:59 AM »
Yes I will try to convince them (in spanish) to send me scions. Let`s hope that we have more success than our friend from Ourfigs. :D
Yesterday I tried it for the first time, but it didn`t work to send them a message. But I will not give up that easily...
Yes your right, they mean the cultivar „Algerie” not the country Algeria. I somehow confused it. I even wrote two member of this forum (from Algeria and Tunisia), if they know this cultivar ;D

Perplexed

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2019, 01:08:10 AM »
If anyone finds a source of the seeds/plants tell me! Species other than the regular loquat are mad hard to find.

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2019, 09:15:22 AM »
I don`t give up easy, but I think it is nearly impossible to get other species then japonica. Even BGCI lists only 2 BG`s for it.
Any news on Piera?

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2019, 02:04:34 PM »
I`ve spoken to IVIA, but they told me that they don`t sell scions at all, they`re only a research centre.


Perplexed

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2019, 09:04:43 PM »
Okay then yeah its impossible finding any species other than japonica other than actually going to the Himalayas.

shiro

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2019, 10:11:46 AM »
Do you ask for seeds too Mangifera08 ?
The research centers often accept the sending of seeds more easily than scions.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2019, 09:23:08 AM »
Sorry for my late reply. I did not especially ask for seeds at the first time. But I talked with them again, and asked if they would sell seeds, and they said they don`t sell seeds, they`re only a research centre.

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2019, 04:37:51 AM »
yesterday I saw a fruiting Eriobotrya at the cologne zoo. This winter was very warm (I have no idea how cold it was in Cologne) The specimen at Botanical Garden in Bonn is not the only one in that region this year.

mangolover143

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2019, 01:50:07 PM »
So I wrote the corresponding author of the paper "Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (E. japonica) and bengal loquat (E. bengalensis)" and asked him about the progress of the project. While he is already working in another area, he sent me a link to a news article.

Original: https://sichuan.scol.com.cn/yaxw/201806/56299857.html
Google Translate: https://translate.google.at/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsichuan.scol.com.cn%2Fyaxw%2F201806%2F56299857.html

Apparently the hybrid trees mentioned in the paper have already flowered and fruited twice and produced tasty loquats. From what I've understood via Google/Bing Translate, they flower in March (the text also mentions April?) and produce fruit in June. Their current temporary cultivar name is "Spring Blossoms" loquat ('春花'枇杷) and the trees are located at the scientific research park of Sichuan Agricultural University. The team is currently trying to graft them on regular loquat cultivars. Can anybody who speaks Chinese confirm (regarding April)?

So I guess there are spring-blooming loquats now :D

 

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