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Author Topic: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia  (Read 3621 times)

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2019, 05:16:47 PM »
Wow, that sounds great! March is still to early (ad least in zone 7a), but it`s a huge step in the right direction. Thank you very much for informing you about the progress of the project.

Well, their growing season is longer. Maybe they would start flowering later in other areas if it's still cold there in March? The question is also how hardy those hybrids are. E. bengalensis is a zone 9 plant from what I can see. Maybe you could cross back to E. Japonica while keeping the spring-blooming habit? It would also be interesting to try a similar cross with one of the cold-hardier spring-blooming species (E. fragrans, E. elliptica, E. petiolata).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 07:46:11 PM by Patanax »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2019, 12:10:15 AM »
another species of Eriobotrya from South China. it is flowering in April.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2019, 08:05:55 AM »
@Patanax
Yes, maybe they would flower later if it would be to cold in march. I haven`t thought about this. But maybe if there would be a warm and sunny period for a few weeks in march, they would think: „Oh, the winter is over, the cold temperatures are gone”, and would start flowering. These flowers would then get completely destroyed, when the warmer weeks would be over, and it would get cold again.
Yes, the hardiness would be the next difficulty. This hybrid is maybe not hardy enough. (Since it`s probably a cross of a subtropical/southern group cultivar with E. bengalensis). Backcrossing with E. japonica is maybe not such a good idea, because all E. japonica flower in winter. So the cross would probably flower in between the two parents, therefore in February or so. (The flowering time would be developed in the false direction). On the opposite a backcross with E. fragrans or E. elliptica would be a good idea. (By the way, what do you mean with: „It would also be interesting to try a similar cross with one of the cold-hardier spring-blooming species”? Do you mean to cross E. japonica with one of the cold hardy species, or do you mean to cross the Spring Blossoms hybrid (japonica x bengalensis) with one of the cold hardy species?)
And one last question, do you know how he was able to accomplish that his hybrid flowers in march? (Since E. bengalensis flowers Nov-Feb, and E. japonica normally flowers in late autumn or winter). Did he selected the hybrids for late blooming?

@mikkel thank you for your information, E. fulvicoma (zone 10) is even less hardier then E. bengalensis (zone 9), but the late flowering is definitely a trade, that makes this species very attractive for crossing with other species.
 

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2019, 01:31:15 PM »
It seems Eriobotrya species beside japonica are very rare. I made an request via bgci one species was only available in 2 BG`s an other only at one BG.
It seems nearly impossible to get these species as an amateur gardener.
Just in case does someone ever tried to graft on Crataegus and other rootstocks?

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2019, 05:21:39 PM »
Just in case does someone ever tried to graft on Crataegus and other rootstocks?

The "Breeding loquat" paper lists many different rootstocks for loquat, including Crataegus. Only as "being in evaluation", but that should mean that they are at least somewhat compatible.

Page 5:
"E. deflexa and E. prinoides have been used as rootstock, but they are less widely used than Photinia serrulata Lindl. in China and Cydonia, Malus, Pyrus, and Pyracantha in Mediterranean regions."

Page 11:
"There are reports of other rosaceous species being evaluated as rootstocks for loquat in various countries. These include hawthorn (Crataegus scabrifolia Rehd.), apple (Malus x domestica Borkh.), fire-thorn (Pyracantha fortuneana Roem.), medlar (Mespilus vulgaris Rchb.], pear (Pyrus communis L.), Chinese photinia (Photinia serrulata Lindl.), and quince (Cydonia oblonga Mill.)."

@Patanax
Yes, maybe they would flower later if it would be to cold in march. I haven`t thought about this. But maybe if there would be a warm and sunny period for a few weeks in march, they would think: „Oh, the winter is over, the cold temperatures are gone”, and would start flowering. These flowers would then get completely destroyed, when the warmer weeks would be over, and it would get cold again.

Yes, that could happen. We don't know until somebody tries it... :D

This hybrid is maybe not hardy enough. (Since it`s probably a cross of a subtropical/southern group cultivar with E. bengalensis).

Yes, the loquat cultivars that were used for the cross are "Dawuxing" and "4-1-5". Dawuxing is actually listed as the example for the southern cultivar group, which is less hardy than the northern group, in the "Breeding loquat" paper. I can't find any information on the white-fleshed 4-1-5 cultivar though.

Backcrossing with E. japonica is maybe not such a good idea, because all E. japonica flower in winter. So the cross would probably flower in between the two parents, therefore in February or so. (The flowering time would be developed in the false direction). On the opposite a backcross with E. fragrans or E. elliptica would be a good idea.

I don't know how flowering time is regulated in the genes in loquat and what determines if a cross has the flowering time of either one of the parents or a different time altogether, but I wouldn't assume that all crosses would flower in e.g. February as that is the middle between the parents. If that were true, then creating the Spring Blossoms hybrid would not have worked in the first place.

We only want one trait from E. bengalensis, which is its spring-blooming habit. It's less hardy than E. japonica and I don't know if it produces desireable fruit. A backcross with E. japonica would ensure good edibility, better hardiness, and less unrelated E. bengalensis genes. In the offspring between the hybrid and E. japonica there would surely be winter-blooming plants, but the question is if there are still some that flower in the spring. Those would be superior plants, which are even closer to E. japonica while still keeping the valuable spring-blooming habit.

I would not cross the hybrid with other wild relatives which further decreases edibility and deviates from regular loquat. A complex hybrid with many different species and a majority of wild genes doesn't seem neccessary when a first generation hybrid with E. japonica already has the spring-blooming trait. I'd rather cross a northern E. japonica cultivar with E. fragrans, E. elliptica or E. petiolata if I have access to those.

(By the way, what do you mean with: „It would also be interesting to try a similar cross with one of the cold-hardier spring-blooming species”? Do you mean to cross E. japonica with one of the cold hardy species, or do you mean to cross the Spring Blossoms hybrid (japonica x bengalensis) with one of the cold hardy species?)

I meant a cross between E. japonica and another cold-hardy, spring-blooming relative. So e.g. E. japonica x E. fragrans.

And one last question, do you know how he was able to accomplish that his hybrid flowers in march? (Since E. bengalensis flowers Nov-Feb, and E. japonica normally flowers in late autumn or winter). Did he selected the hybrids for late blooming?

I also found sources that state that E. bengalensis flowers in the winter, but according to the paper, they chose E. bengalensis as a hybrid partner for E. japonica particulary because it flowers in the spring. I don't know why e.g. Flora of China states that they flower in the winter... ???

Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (Eriobotrya japonica Lindl.) and Bengal loquat (E. bengalensis Hook.), Page 1:
"Bengal loquat (E. bengalensis Hook.) blooms in March and April and ripens in July and August in China, is considered a valuable genetic resource for breeding spring-flowering E. japonica cultivars which can avoid cold injury in winter."

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2019, 05:54:33 AM »

I don't know how flowering time is regulated in the genes in loquat and what determines if a cross has the flowering time of either one of the parents or a different time altogether, but I wouldn't assume that all crosses would flower in e.g. February as that is the middle between the parents. If that were true, then creating the Spring Blossoms hybrid would not have worked in the first place.

We only want one trait from E. bengalensis, which is its spring-blooming habit. It's less hardy than E. japonica and I don't know if it produces desireable fruit. A backcross with E. japonica would ensure good edibility, better hardiness, and less unrelated E. bengalensis genes. In the offspring between the hybrid and E. japonica there would surely be winter-blooming plants, but the question is if there are still some that flower in the spring. Those would be superior plants, which are even closer to E. japonica while still keeping the valuable spring-blooming habit.

You could be right. Most of them would probably flower in between, but there could be some that flower at a different time.
This could work out. As you said, the fruits, would be even better than from the Spring Blossoms hybrid, because the resulting hybrid would have less E. bengalensis genes.

I would not cross the hybrid with other wild relatives which further decreases edibility and deviates from regular loquat. A complex hybrid with many different species and a majority of wild genes doesn't seem neccessary when a first generation hybrid with E. japonica already has the spring-blooming trait. I'd rather cross a northern E. japonica cultivar with E. fragrans, E. elliptica or E. petiolata if I have access to those.

I have to agree totally. Yes, crossing a nothern E. japonica cultivar with one of the spring blooming cold hardier species, seems to be a far better idea.

I also found sources that state that E. bengalensis flowers in the winter, but according to the paper, they chose E. bengalensis as a hybrid partner for E. japonica particulary because it flowers in the spring. I don't know why e.g. Flora of China states that they flower in the winter... ???

The information about flowering/fruiting of different Eriobotrya species is very confusing. I thought for example that E. japonica always flowers in winter, but Flora of China says that E. japonica flowers in June (and fruits Jul-Aug). I don`t know exactly why, but it seems that the same species in China has a completely other flowering (and fruiting) time in Europe or America. Additonally there comes a difference in flowering time, depending on the (hardiness) zone. The same species probably flowers earlier in the warmer areas of its range. But I don`t think that the zone difference is the only reason for the difference in flowering (,fruiting) time. Therefore it could be, or more likely has to be that other Eriobotrya species planted here, also flower at a different time than Flora of China says.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2019, 06:00:21 AM »
After long searching I found this article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287594421_%27Piera%27_A_new_everflowering_loquat_variety
It talks about the (algerian) Loquat variety called „Piera”, which blooms and ripens fruit throughout the whole year.
This trait could make it possible to grow Loquat in colder zones. I also think that this cultivar could cope with our winters, since it`s a pure E. japonica (not crossed with cold sensitive species like E. bengalensis).
Until now I could not find this cultivar, but if more people search for it, the chance to find it is much higher.

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2019, 08:58:12 PM »
After long searching I found this article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287594421_%27Piera%27_A_new_everflowering_loquat_variety
It talks about the (algerian) Loquat variety called „Piera”, which blooms and ripens fruit throughout the whole year.
This trait could make it possible to grow Loquat in colder zones. I also think that this cultivar could cope with our winters, since it`s a pure E. japonica (not crossed with cold sensitive species like E. bengalensis).
Until now I could not find this cultivar, but if more people search for it, the chance to find it is much higher.


I also came across this paper but was unable to find much other information on the cultivar. Sadly even the paper itself is behind a paywall. But now I found a description of the cultivar on the website of a Spanish loquat germplasm bank. It seems to confirm its everflowering habit:

http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163110574/EJ081_Piera.pdf/4573833b-5f12-43e2-922a-98466ec6881b
http://www.ivia.gva.es/ca/banco-de-germoplasma-de-nispero

The cultivar is grown in Italy and Spain, so maybe someone could send us scion wood or potted plants. I will try contacting some nurseries in south tyrol and ask them if they have access to it.

I also asked for scions here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31185
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 09:09:45 PM by Patanax »

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2019, 04:38:31 AM »
Is there a chance to ask IVIA for it?

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2019, 06:49:35 AM »
I also came across this paper but was unable to find much other information on the cultivar. Sadly even the paper itself is behind a paywall. But now I found a description of the cultivar on the website of a Spanish loquat germplasm bank. It seems to confirm its everflowering habit:

http://www.ivia.gva.es/documents/161862582/163110574/EJ081_Piera.pdf/4573833b-5f12-43e2-922a-98466ec6881b
http://www.ivia.gva.es/ca/banco-de-germoplasma-de-nispero

The cultivar is grown in Italy and Spain, so maybe someone could send us scion wood or potted plants. I will try contacting some nurseries in south tyrol and ask them if they have access to it.

I also asked for scions here: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=31185


Wow, that`s great! If „Piera” is grown in Spain and Italy, it should be much easier to find it. I will search for spanish nurseries, and try to contact people form Spain and Italy. I think we will find this cultivar soon. (I`ve just noticed that ivia says that „Piera” originated in Spain, whereas the article says it is from Algeria. But I think it is the same cultivar.)

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2019, 07:06:18 AM »
Is there a chance to ask IVIA for it?
Yes, we can contact them and ask them if they could for example send us scions.
(I could even write them in spanish, but I`m pretty sure they also understand english)

Patanax

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2019, 09:16:43 PM »
Is there a chance to ask IVIA for it?
Yes, we can contact them and ask them if they could for example send us scions.
(I could even write them in spanish, but I`m pretty sure they also understand english)

Supposedly they only work with firms, we would not be be the first ones to try it...

https://www.ourfigs.com/forum/blueberry-home/424281-loquats-trees-grafting-new-varieties-video?p=425747#post425747

But we should try it anyway :D
Do you want to write them in Spanish @Magnifera08?

Wow, that`s great! If „Piera” is grown in Spain and Italy, it should be much easier to find it. I will search for spanish nurseries, and try to contact people form Spain and Italy. I think we will find this cultivar soon. (I`ve just noticed that ivia says that „Piera” originated in Spain, whereas the article says it is from Algeria. But I think it is the same cultivar.)

Ok, I have also written a few nurseries in South Tyrol.

The paper states that Piera is a bud mutation of the cultivar 'Algerie'. That's the name of another cultivar, they don't mean the country Algeria. The IVIA website actually has 'Algerie' in their collection as well, but it doesn't have the same flowering properties as 'Piera' so it's not that interesting.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2019, 06:39:59 AM »
Yes I will try to convince them (in spanish) to send me scions. Let`s hope that we have more success than our friend from Ourfigs. :D
Yesterday I tried it for the first time, but it didn`t work to send them a message. But I will not give up that easily...
Yes your right, they mean the cultivar „Algerie” not the country Algeria. I somehow confused it. I even wrote two member of this forum (from Algeria and Tunisia), if they know this cultivar ;D

Perplexed

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2019, 01:08:10 AM »
If anyone finds a source of the seeds/plants tell me! Species other than the regular loquat are mad hard to find.

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2019, 09:15:22 AM »
I don`t give up easy, but I think it is nearly impossible to get other species then japonica. Even BGCI lists only 2 BG`s for it.
Any news on Piera?

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2019, 02:04:34 PM »
I`ve spoken to IVIA, but they told me that they don`t sell scions at all, they`re only a research centre.


Perplexed

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2019, 09:04:43 PM »
Okay then yeah its impossible finding any species other than japonica other than actually going to the Himalayas.

shiro

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2019, 10:11:46 AM »
Do you ask for seeds too Mangifera08 ?
The research centers often accept the sending of seeds more easily than scions.

Mangifera08

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2019, 09:23:08 AM »
Sorry for my late reply. I did not especially ask for seeds at the first time. But I talked with them again, and asked if they would sell seeds, and they said they don`t sell seeds, they`re only a research centre.

mikkel

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2019, 04:37:51 AM »
yesterday I saw a fruiting Eriobotrya at the cologne zoo. This winter was very warm (I have no idea how cold it was in Cologne) The specimen at Botanical Garden in Bonn is not the only one in that region this year.

mangolover143

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Re: Wanted: Temperate Eriobotrya species - East Asia
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2019, 01:50:07 PM »
So I wrote the corresponding author of the paper "Identification of interspecific hybrids between loquat (E. japonica) and bengal loquat (E. bengalensis)" and asked him about the progress of the project. While he is already working in another area, he sent me a link to a news article.

Original: https://sichuan.scol.com.cn/yaxw/201806/56299857.html
Google Translate: https://translate.google.at/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fsichuan.scol.com.cn%2Fyaxw%2F201806%2F56299857.html

Apparently the hybrid trees mentioned in the paper have already flowered and fruited twice and produced tasty loquats. From what I've understood via Google/Bing Translate, they flower in March (the text also mentions April?) and produce fruit in June. Their current temporary cultivar name is "Spring Blossoms" loquat ('春花'枇杷) and the trees are located at the scientific research park of Sichuan Agricultural University. The team is currently trying to graft them on regular loquat cultivars. Can anybody who speaks Chinese confirm (regarding April)?

So I guess there are spring-blooming loquats now :D

 

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