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Author Topic: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One  (Read 1076 times)

Oolie

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Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« on: October 31, 2018, 08:02:56 PM »

As anybody who has been accosted for being in the wrong place at the wrong time can tell you, profiling is bad, or at the very least can account for undeserved visitation by the authorities. That being said, the readers of this board very much wish for categorization and dissemination of information with regards to flavors found in mangoes. I for one have used these boards to great effect in the selection of varieties of mangoes with a wide range of flavor profiles.

According to information I have found on this site and others, Mangoes largely fall into several flavor categories. Piney/Indian spicy/ resin, Coconutty, Florida/peachy(yellow peach is implied), Citrusy, Indochinese, and others.

For the purpose of this discussion I would like to focus on flavors independently of other similar qualities for instance: Sweetness(Brix), acidity, Mouthfeel (syrupy to Chalky(startchy)), fiberousness, etc. While these qualities are often polarizing amongst connoisseurs, they donít highlight what distinguishes mangoes from other types of fruit, which is to say a broad range of flavor profiles.

In this thread I wanted to share an opinion I arrived at while weeding the orchard.

Long has the flavor of the Maha Chanok mango been discussed, often being referred to as Ďfloralí or Ďherbalí. Often the flavor is described as being similar to parsnips, which I agree with, but this defies the longstanding categories which we group mango flavors by.

It clicked today as I pulled a fennel root. Fennel has an anisey type of aroma, but the root has a far more complex profile. The weed comes from the family apiaceae of which carrots, parsely, and celery and parsnips also belong. The roots convey an aroma on par with this. Somewhat in between parsnips, carrots, and clove (pumpkin pie spice).

It is due to this character that I believe a quality is shared between Maha Chanok (Parsnip), Mallika (carroty), and Caribbean mangoes such as Madame Francis (anisey/pumpkin pie spice).

I hope that this dialogue will assist those considering which varieties of mangoes to plant on the basis of flavor alone.

In the future I hope to have discussions on other types of flavors which mangoes can have.

Oolie

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter Two
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2019, 04:51:51 PM »
To expand the discussion with myself, I have decided to endeavor a second chapter.

I have recently had the opportunity to attend a mango tasting. I came out with more questions than answers, specifically on the topic of "Classic" mango flavor profile, and I hope to break it down a bit.

In online discussions the grouping of "Classic" has been used to describe mangoes with flavor profiles similar to "Haden" the perennial mango of Florida. The profile can be described as tasting like "mango" as it is most people's introduction to mangoes within the South Florida tasting circles. It's a tropical taste with some resinous tones like those described as "piney" and "West Indian".

I recently tasted a mostly ripe Kent, and found a flavor present which may be in contention. Some people describe it as a flavor similar to "Berries" tasted most often (and strongly) in Kesar. I have also tasted it in high strength in 36-8, a mango described as tasting like "Indian mangoes". Others have described it as tasting "Classic-acidic like its parent Zill-80".  Well, having detected the presence of this flavor in Kent, I can now see where the discrepancy is occurring. Kent at differing levels of ripeness can have dramatically different flavors, from the "berry-stone fruit" to "resinous piney" to "Mangoey". I indulge heavily in Kent every year, but rarely is it that well ripened ones can be found in the store that can preserve these more delicate notes like those found in the Kesar.

Given the distribution of this flavor, it seems appropriate to describe the 36-8 as either "classic-acidic" or "Indian" depending on one's tasting background, or where they tasted the flavor in question first.

Additionally I would like to talk about a different flavor entirely, the Parsnip flavor from the Maha. I noticed many describe an "Indochinese Resin" in many varieties, from Sweet Tart, to P-22, to Kathy (K3), which has in the past been described as "Cola Sap". I tasted a few of these at the tasting, and the only flavor they had in common was the Parsnip flavor present in Maha sap. Can anyone confirm that this is the Indochinese Resin flavor, or is there another component I am missing?

SeaWalnut

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2019, 08:01:50 PM »
If you say parsnip is related to celery then indeed 80 percent of the mango i ate taste like celery a little especially close to the skin.To me, that celery flavor its almost identical to the pine resinuous flavor.
What amazes me at mango ( wich represents 85 percent of the fruits i eat) its that i never find 2 to taste the same and have the same texture and ive read here that they differ that much even on the same tree.
Most people dont like the resiny taste near the skin but i think that the best thing at a mango.
Among the last weird ones i ate there was one that tasted like like sulphur or rotting eggs a little and one that tasted like avocado( not coconut,but avocado or walnuts).They were delicious.
The coconut,carrot and pumpkin tastes of mango cathegoryes ,i would unite them in a single cathegory because they are too similar.Non of these 3 is among my favourites altough they have probably the best texture from all the mangos usually, if they are ripe,buttery .
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 08:16:36 PM by SeaWalnut »

WGphil

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2019, 08:00:52 AM »
Some over  ripe mangos can develop stinky foot taste and smell

The Phoenix is a wonderful complex mango but over ripe it's bad and you can smell it

Still in my top five this year cause on the money it's a great mango

SeaWalnut

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2019, 09:00:04 PM »
Some over  ripe mangos can develop stinky foot taste and smell

The Phoenix is a wonderful complex mango but over ripe it's bad and you can smell it

Still in my top five this year cause on the money it's a great mango
I dont buy over ripe mangoes.The one that had sulphur smell to it i think its the one people say it reminds them of durian .I dont know the cultivar name thogh.

K-Rimes

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2019, 01:20:42 PM »
I would think that developing a tasting wheel as used in coffee, whisky, wine, etc would be where to start. Determining the flavors and notes that go around the wheel will be helpful, and you could dedicate half to texture, and the other to flavor, if you wanted.

The resulting shape connecting the dots is fascinating, and you can start to identify the flavors you like in coffee by using the shape alone (once you understand what your palate likes).






« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 01:23:24 PM by K-Rimes »

skhan

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 03:13:31 PM »
I would think that developing a tasting wheel as used in coffee, whisky, wine, etc would be where to start. Determining the flavors and notes that go around the wheel will be helpful, and you could dedicate half to texture, and the other to flavor, if you wanted.

The resulting shape connecting the dots is fascinating, and you can start to identify the flavors you like in coffee by using the shape alone (once you understand what your palate likes).







I never knew about this, pretty cool concept.

If I had a more refined palate I'd start logging flavors.

I can do textures though
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Oolie

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2019, 07:19:27 PM »
Some over  ripe mangos can develop stinky foot taste and smell

The Phoenix is a wonderful complex mango but over ripe it's bad and you can smell it

Still in my top five this year cause on the money it's a great mango
ďStinky feetĒ smells come from nitrogen rich compounds. Iíve yet to encounter these in Mango, but I couldnít rule it out, and canít wait to try Phoenix.
Some over  ripe mangos can develop stinky foot taste and smell

The Phoenix is a wonderful complex mango but over ripe it's bad and you can smell it

Still in my top five this year cause on the money it's a great mango
I dont buy over ripe mangoes.The one that had sulphur smell to it i think its the one people say it reminds them of durian .I dont know the cultivar name thogh.
Iíve yet to encounter a sulfurous smelling mango, and sulfurous compounds are ones I have a particular gag reflex for. I have had a hard time finding durian that I enjoy due to this, but I still have found some with really nice flavors. Particularly I think that Maha Chanok has a flavor that exists in durian as well, but I have never tasted one with sulfurous flavors.

I would think that developing a tasting wheel as used in coffee, whisky, wine, etc would be where to start. Determining the flavors and notes that go around the wheel will be helpful, and you could dedicate half to texture, and the other to flavor, if you wanted.

The resulting shape connecting the dots is fascinating, and you can start to identify the flavors you like in coffee by using the shape alone (once you understand what your palate likes).

Iíve noted wheels like this before, but I donít find them particularly accurate or informative, but they are excellent for general characterization.

I really like the articles published in scientific journals that sample the same fruit at varying stages of ripeness, and use gas chromatography along with acidity titration and brix to characterize each sample.

Itís then beneficial to compare each flavor compound identified with other foods that the flavor appears in.

Mangoes can have a dozen competing flavor compounds or more in a single fruit which leads to high complexity and nuance. Not only that, our sensory receptors are more attuned to detect certain compounds more intensely than others, which is to say that even though a flavor compound may only exist in small amounts relative to others, our receptors may be overpowered by it.

I think that the wheel may be the best option out there for giving general advice, but Iím really interested in the compounds which are harder to categorize, or which end up falling into different categories for different people.

SeaWalnut

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 08:41:08 PM »
,,Stinky feet,, its not acurate enough :D and that smell comes from an aminoacid or a mix of aminoacids that got decomposed into an amine.Because the plants lack the soo called ,,essential aminoacids,, they dont smell that bad as an animal that gets decomposed .( in somme cases thogh,bacteria breaks down dead plant matter and if the bacteria dies ,it smells like a rotten animal because bacterias contain the esential aminoacids).
And i think the idea with the wheel its a good one and one passioned enough person can build a DIY spectrometer for testing mangoes. A high tech,professional mass spectrometer  its too much for just identifying the taste.Thats used to identify complicated organic compounds and its really a high tech scientific tool.

About the DIY spectrometer to measure mangoes flavor,i can help anybody with somme advices because i had one similar build to measure the colors of the artificial light, like a PAR meter but i would call my project the most advanced PAR meter in the world ,because mein measures all the colors not just the red and blue wavelengths. You only need a small video camera and a difraction grating after wich you can experiment and record ( take pictures of the spectre)various mango flavors.
EDIT: It seems that there are allready small spectrometer kits for smartphones and they are cheap.Only thing thats missing is the taste scale that could be made into a phone application.
My spectrometer to measure the light colors was made to measure them under water at certain depths where the colors of the light are filtered.But for fruits you dont need such thing.The cardboard ones made with difraction grating from a DVD are verry good to test fruits. https://youtu.be/hZkVYuw4pJ4
You will get something that works like this phone spectrometer that allready for sale . https://youtu.be/BTN00-6Lh5Q or even better if its easyer to wash and add liquids directly between the led light ( or a small mirror / reflector) and the difraction grating.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 09:19:01 PM by SeaWalnut »

Clayton

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2019, 06:09:05 PM »
The best mango's I've tasted in Hawaii are Pirie mango's and we can only get it from some ones back yard, they don't sell it at super markets. The super markets only sell bland local fibrous mango's, and green ataulfo or champagne mangos from Mexico. That's why I started ordering different bare root mango trees from Florida. I am going to stop buying after coco nut cream.

Tropicdude

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2019, 09:06:33 PM »
Some years ago I posted something along this topic in this forum, which I think you will find is right up your ally.

http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=3604.msg50449#msg50449


You need to do searches on the Volatile Components of mangoes.
  https://ucanr.edu/datastoreFiles/608-655.pdf

once you look over these, it becomes clear why mangoes vary in taste and aroma so much between cultivars.

this next paper compares Nam Doc Mai,  to Maha Chanok,    some people seem to detect carrot or parsnip flavor in the Maha Chanoc.  in this  document you can actually see what it is that gives that variety it's unique flavor.   http://www.ifrj.upm.edu.my/19%20%2804%29%202012/22%20IFRJ%2019%20%2804%29%202012%20Laohaprasit%20%28024%29.pdf
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 09:10:06 PM by Tropicdude »
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Oolie

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Re: Mango Flavor Profiling: Chapter One
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2019, 01:30:46 AM »
Thanks Dude!
Your post you linked as well as the article you linked are some of my favorites to date. Thank you for including the info in this discussion.

I would be interested to compare the data from those sources with similar extractions performed on the newer Zill varieties.

 

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