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Author Topic: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility  (Read 314 times)

mehmetsaygin

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C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« on: November 06, 2018, 12:09:18 AM »
Hi.

At the beginning of spring 2017, when season starts we noticed a big problem on one of Meyer orchards. Leaves got yellow gradually quickly. We supported with trace elements, iron and applied %35 Metalaxyl and % 80 Fosetyl-Al in order.
Trees recovered and continue well in the summer. Then in September, the symptoms seen again and the tress died one by one, all of the orchard.

We got the soil and dead trees tested and nothing significant had been found, only some pathogens which are not the reason but the result of dead roots.

Unfortunately, we have 8000 more Meyer lemon trees on C35 rootstock in another orchard. We got afraid a lot at first but they were fine until last month. This month they showed the same symptoms and I am afraid the result will be same. This time we support with zinc and manganese because C35 is susceptible to them but I have no hope.

When you pull out a dead tree, you can see there is a very limited root development. It is obvious that the top part was not successful to support roots.
And rootstock-bud union connection shows a swelling on bud part.
At final conclusion we think it is a rootstock - scion incompatibility.

I would like to hear your experiences with C35 and meyer or other lemons.

Have a nice day.















SoCal2warm

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 04:02:16 AM »
From that picture of the graft union, it looks like that rootstock may have been too slow growing.

citrange

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 05:17:45 AM »
I have no personal knowledge of Meyer Lemon rootstocks. Perhaps John in Guatemala might help. He is a commercial Meyer grower and posts mainly on the Houzz citrus forum.
I have tried to find out a bit more for you, but there is not much information about Meyer Lemon rootstocks because it is not grown commercially on a large scale.
However, there are a few hints that it may not do well on C35. Some of the links below refer to other lemon incompatabilities, some refer to general long-term problems with C-35.
Do you know if your original supply of Meyer Lemons was from a guaranteed virus-free source? In USA this would be 'Improved Meyer' rather than the original importation which carried symptomless virus which could then effect the rootstock.

https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=13926
http://wacitrus.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Varieties-Rootstocks_Rootstock-Characteristics-Scion-Capabilities_Helen-Ramsey_July-2009.pdf
http://pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/296902/Citrus_Technical_Guide.pdf

2.9 Citrus tatterleaf virus
Citrus tatterleaf virus (CiTLV), synonyms Citrange stunt virus, Apple stem grooving virus, was first reported in 1962 from Meyer lemon which had been imported from China in 1908 (Wallace & Drake, 1962). CiTLV causes stunting or dwarfing, necrosis at the bud union, and virus-induced bud union incompatibility on scions grafted onto P. trifoliata, citrange, or citrumelo rootstocks (Iwanami, Kano, & Koizumi, 1991). The virus is carried asymptomatically in most citrus varieties, and symptoms often are not apparent until the tree is 37 years of age (Roistacher, 1991). The major method of transmission is by use of infected propagation materials. CiTLV is widespread in China, Japan, and Korea and has been reported in South Africa, Australia, and in the United States via the importation of Meyer lemon from China. Control of CiTLV is by use of quarantine, clean stock, and certification programs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/citrange


Radoslav

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 06:21:39 AM »
Mayer is well known symptomless carrier of the tristeza virus, this was the reson for Improved Meyer lemon cultivar introduction. CTV causes
 quick declination, but you wrote, that you tested the plant. Sudden death because of the rootstock incompatibility is theoretically possible, when there is a long time deficiency of some chemical element, but for me it looks like poisoning.
Is there some other farm close to your? Did someone use herbicides close to you water source?

You wrote about poor root system because of incompatibility, it does not give me a sense, if rootstock does not want "cooperate"  with graft, it will push its own twigs to overgrow the graft.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 07:53:34 AM by Radoslav »

mehmetsaygin

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2018, 08:20:25 AM »
Yes SoCal2warm, you are right the rootstock were slow growing, undersoil roots development was very weak too but more important is why.

Radoslav, yes we got the dead tree tested but the result was clear of CTV.
Actually the trees are sprayed with nutrients during summer so I guess this delayed the death while roots were going bad.
Poisoning is not an option here because we have more Meyer orchards that we water from same source, on same soil but on Volkameriana rootstock. They are very healthy.
Also the first dead orchard was sharing the same field with Euroka lemons on . Volkameriana rootstock, which are also very healthy.

citrange, thank you very much for the links, they contain very valuable information, I will read carefully.
Meyer lemon has a very important commercial value in Turkey because it is the first crop at the end of August after people consume very expensive lemon whole summer. Not because of fruit quality or taste.
We read about those hints you mentioned before but we also had few trees for test before we go for the orchards and strangely today, the test trees were pretty good. They are 7 years old now and their effort encouraged us even after we read citrange rootstocks and meyer lemons are not a good match.

Your answer for the guaranteed virus-free source is negative, on the contrary I am pretty sure that they are NOT virus-free. Using Certified, virus-free tree is still not a common practice here. %95 of the orchards use non-certified trees.
But as I stated the tested dead trees were clean according to the report.
I checked the photos of CiTLV but leaf symptoms doesn't look similar to me.

I thought I could find more information on C35 and Meyer compatibility but I guess it is because it is not a commercially valuable lemon variety for US.

Thank you all for your replies.

Radoslav

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 11:20:02 AM »
According to this paper: https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/148120/5b-lemon-rootstocks.pdf
Swingle citrumelo is incompatible with Meyer lemon.
C 35 is incompatible with Yen Ben lemon3, which died after 5 years in a trial at
Kerikeri, New Zealand.

So,  may be your C35 are in fact Citrumelo rootstocks.

According to this  https://www.houzz.com/discussions/4901257/rootstock-for-meyer-lemon.  Meyer doing well on C35.

Millet

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 09:46:11 PM »
The rootstock C35 was released by the University of California at Riverside, CA.  in 1986.  It therefore has developed some history. Its known compatibilities and incompatibilities are:  Good compatibility with all oranges, grapefruit, and Lisbon lemons.  Fukumoto navel on C35 is subject to a decline of unknown cause that may be a type of incompatibility. C35 appears to be strongly incompatible with Eureka lemon.  Compatibility with mandarins is complex and not well understood.  Nearly all mandarins perform well for at least 10 to 15 years, but then eventually develop bud union crease and decline.  While C35 performed well in most trials, C35's performance with Valencia trees became very poor after about 10 years.  The cause of this poor performance is not yet known, but the use of a relatively new rootstock inevitably involves some risks.  Because Meyer lemons are not popular in the USA and are not grown much commercially, no research has been done relating to the relationships between C35 and the Meyer lemon.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 02:26:46 PM by Millet »

mehmetsaygin

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2018, 02:18:54 PM »
Thank you Radoslav. We are sure the rootstocks are C35, seeds were provided by the university. And I read the houzz.com discussion. We also have Meyer lemons on C35, which are still alive after 7 years, our first test trees. They are not in perfect condition and show micronutrient deficiencies but alive. But their soil is better, this may help. Unfortunately, the big orchards have more calcareous type soil and symptoms are worse.

Millet, thank you for the information. When my father first met with C35, he also planted an orange orchard on it which have died many years ago, at 2-3 years old. And we have a 4000 W.Murcott trees on C35. Soil of that orchard is very strong and trees are very happy at the moment. we are expecting to get 50kg fruit per tree this year, they are 3-4 years old. Your note on developing bud union crease and decline after 10-15 years is frightening though.

According to the document below;
- C-35 is susceptible to zinc and manganese deficiencies.
- More sensitive to calcareous soils than Carrizo citrange.

http://chislettfarms.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/C-35+citrange+sml.pdf

It seems that we succeeded the worst combination ever on citrus history.

Millet

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2018, 02:50:26 PM »
C35's soil adaptation is now somewhat known. The rootstock is adapted to loam, sandy loam and sandy soil.  May preform poorly on very heavy soils with poor drainage, but not much data on this is available.  C35 has shown poor tolerance to salinity (chlorides) and to calcareous soils, where it has shown to be somewhat worse than even Carrizo.

mehmetsaygin

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2018, 01:45:53 AM »
Thank you Millet. Salinity of the soil is low and after Dr.Whitcomb's warning many years ago, we know that our water is also good.
But the soil is calcareous.

Now for the rest of the tress alive, we will apply 5 lbs of Mn as MnSO₄ and 5 lbs of Zn as ZnO foliar spray and we will repeat this in the spring and I will share the results with you and keep this thread alive as a record.

Thank you all :)

Sylvain

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2018, 07:46:14 AM »
ZnO, are you sure? ZnO is water-insoluble.
It might be ZnSO4.

SoCal2warm

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2018, 07:48:44 AM »
One common cause of delayed graft failure, it is believed, is differences in growth rate between the rootstock and scion.
Some varieties grow at different rates than others.

mehmetsaygin

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2018, 09:58:03 AM »
Thanks for the warning Sylvain, on the 55th page of the book "Nutrition of Florida Citrus Trees" book, it says;

"Application of foliar Zn fertilizer is usually combined with pesticide sprays scheduled in April or May at 3 to 5 lbs of metallic Zn/acre using either ZnO or ZnSO4."

I was aware of the ZnSO4 application but first time read about this above. It will be great to clear that information here.

---

SoCal2warm, it is somehow ironic when we try to get a healthier foliage for the tree, we also push the growth rate difference of the rootstock and scion.


mehmetsaygin

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2018, 09:58:25 AM »

lebmung

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2018, 07:22:06 AM »
ZnO, are you sure? ZnO is water-insoluble.
It might be ZnSO4.

ZnSO4 burns the plants so smooth, I use it to destroy the algae and mold.

Millet

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2018, 07:53:17 AM »
ZnSO4 is commonly used as a water soluble source of zinc.

mehmetsaygin

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Re: C35-Meyer lemon incompatibility
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2018, 04:07:01 PM »
Thank you, I bought a combination of ZnSO4 and MnSO4, tomorrow we will apply it.
Today I met an agricultural engineer and luckily he has worked at the company few years ago who made our dead tree test. He strongly advice not to believe the result we get from local lab and send the samples to another company in another city.
This week I will send some soil and leaf samples and a dead root to this recommended lab. We will see.

 

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