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Author Topic: Poncirus fruit comparison  (Read 4093 times)

Ilya11

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Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: November 22, 2018, 06:06:37 AM »
Below is a comparison of three poncirus varieties:

From left to right: Poncirus B.Voss-45 gram,  SwampLemon-41 gram  , PoncirusTrifoliata+ -41gram



Poncirus from B.Voss is almost all seeds (45), SwampLemon contains 21 seeds and PT+ 25seeds



After seed extraction:



Very small quantity of juice in classical poncirus, very high quantity of soluble matters (20° Brix), very acid, bitter oil emulsion

Swamp Lemon: 4 ml of juice, 9° Brix, acid, some bitterness, oils are present and stick to dents

PT+:  6 ml of juice, 10° Brix, acid, less bitter than SL, oils are probably there because of astringent taste, but do not stick to dents




I diluted all three juices with water to 5° Brix and kept them overnight in  refrigerator:



Poncirus Voss: acid, some bitterness, sharp taste, but not much revolting to three people who tasted it, sticky oils with typical poncirus taste are in yellow sediment

SwampLemon: taste more diluted, essentially the same appreciation as above, probably less bitterness and acidity, sticky oils are in yellow sediment

PT+ :  taste almost like white grapefruit but less sweet, some lemony note, sediment consists mostly of pulp membrane residues, may be some oils, but drastically less than in two previous cases.

For me these results are still inconclusive, especially in case of SwampLemon versus usual poncirus.

Best regards,
                       Ilya

eyeckr

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 12:55:33 AM »
Nice detailed post. Thanks for the comparison!

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 04:55:54 AM »
So Poncirus+ seems to be most promising if one tries to use PT-fruits for consumation. I think of extracting aromas for tonic-water for new recipies.

Florian

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 10:54:19 AM »
Thanks a lot Ilya for this comparison.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 02:35:59 PM »
Thanks you Ilya!
very interesting that Swamp Lemon and Poncirus+ look much more alike from the outside compared to standard Poncirus.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 05:15:30 PM »
No, it is just their different position, All three look very much alike.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Citradia

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 07:26:51 PM »
Oh my goodness; I was hoping swamp lemon would be the answer to my prayers. I guess it’s not that much different from PT. If I did find a “swamp lemon” in the swamps of eastern NC, it would be hard to tell if it was swamp lemon or just another PT.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2018, 07:35:22 AM »
Oh my goodness; I was hoping swamp lemon would be the answer to my prayers. I guess it’s not that much different from PT. If I did find a “swamp lemon” in the swamps of eastern NC, it would be hard to tell if it was swamp lemon or just another PT.
It is obvious that at least this year, freshly cut Swamp Lemon is very different from the "ordinary" poncirus .
I guess that the amount of juice is inversely proportional to the seed number. It could be that a limited number of seeds is a feature of Swamp Lemon and explains why people consider it more acceptable than ordinary poncirus. Also, as you see my poncirus has green color of the pulp, while two other fruits are both  yellow inside. 
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Citradia

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 08:09:15 PM »
My PT fruit didn’t have green pulp. Maybe pulp color indicates variety?

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 10:57:44 AM »
This weekend I found an interesting Poncirus.
I took pictures like Ilya did.
I found this fruit interesting as the plant description in park said it is a lemon substitute... sounded like on ebay :)
There was only 1 fruit on the tree but several rotten on the ground.
There were other plants grown as a hedge with only few tiny fruits Might be seedlings of it.

The fruit is fuzzy like any Poncirus fruit. You can`t see it on the picture.

Inside like any other Poncirus (left fruit is a rotten one, not the one i used for taste test)


Juice of the Ellerhoop tree


Diluteted juice after 1 1/2 days



There is only some pulp in the diluted juice but nothing more.

Juice is free from resin and sour. No bitterness to my taste ( but I can`t be used as scale :) )
When you bite into the pulp there is some resin but not much and it is not very sticky to the teeth. It did not last long.
There is some bitterness in the peel.
I asked friends to taste it they found some bitterness in the pulp. But only a little. None said it is aweful...
Taste is a highly subjective matter I think. It would be good to have more fruits but so far i need to wait for next year.
I will see if it is as good as this  fruit.


The supposed seedlings are similar in taste but there is no juice in it. I found 3 tiny fruits in the hedge all are more or less the same.
Pulp is more greenish than in the "mother". You can`t see it on the picture.

Tonight I will taste the diluted juice.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:59:50 PM by mikkel »

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 12:16:05 PM »
Very interesting, how many seeds were there?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2018, 12:55:03 PM »
31 in the Ellerhoop plant and 28 in one of the smaller fruits.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 04:06:34 PM »

this is the bottom sediment of the juice. I applied it directly to my teeth :) no sticky resin.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2018, 02:46:05 AM »
not really off-topic but beside-topic :)

these are Poncirus seedlings all siblings, same age, same treatment.


hardyvermont

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 05:38:13 PM »
not really off-topic but beside-topic :)

these are Poncirus seedlings all siblings, same age, same treatment.



Mikkel, what has happened to those plants since you posted.

Millet

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 06:29:06 PM »
Ilya11,  what is different about Poncirus B. Voss than regular poncirus?  I am not familiar with it. 

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2020, 03:33:45 AM »
I named it like this because the only thing I know, that it was used as a rootstock by B.Voss.
Like Mikkel  showed above there is no "regular" PT, there is a huge variability.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2020, 05:38:50 AM »
Mikkel, what has happened to those plants since you posted.

they ended up as rootstock :)

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2020, 05:43:41 AM »
on B.Voss old website he reported about a Poncirus  which flowered within 1 year . He found it by accident.
 Even Eisenhut had it. Now it is lost.
@Ilya11 did you ever grew seedlings of your Voss Poncirus?

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2020, 08:23:27 AM »
Yes, most of my plants are grafted on it.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Walt

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2020, 12:48:12 PM »
A lot of useful information here.  Thank you.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2020, 08:16:21 AM »
Fruit quality of Poncirus seems to vary a lot from year to year. My fruits of 2019 were quite good (Zdenek said, they were the best he had ever tasted). After two weeks of storing there was quite much juice and very few bitterness in it. We had a very long summer and autumn ended with November or the fist week of December. Maybe the fruits are better when they are riper? We had almost no frost until Christmas and the last fruit of Citrumelo 5* I took home was only as bitter as a normal white grapefruit and had also some sweetness.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:12:08 PM by Millet »

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2020, 08:49:00 AM »
I found poncirus fruits that had already fallen to the ground were much less bitter and less resinous compared to freshly picked fruits.

 Jiri in the Czech Republic tested several varieties of Poncirus last autumn. Here is the website:
http://citrusy.info/test-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody/
english translation: https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcitrusy.info%2Ftest-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody%2F

I was also sent some fruits. And I can confirm his results.

Walt

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2020, 01:31:49 PM »
Again, very interesting and very informative.

"If I manage to graft these clones to one older trifoliate in spring, they will grow on the same rootstock, under the same climatic conditions, and have the same irrigation and fertilization. Then I will be able to provide more accurate information and confirm whether the actual differences in taste are genetically determined or have been influenced by growing conditions."

The quote above shows that more, better, information may come later.  But even grafted on the same tree, there will be environmental differences.  As has been mentioned on this forum before, fruit from the north side of a tree will be different from fruit from the south side of the tree.  And the link itself mentions that there are differences in elevation and other differences where the varieties were grown.
Thanks to all who have added to this thread, and to all who might add more in the future.

Till

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2020, 04:50:45 PM »
I also tasted fruits from different Poncirus trees. The taste and juiciness of the fruits has definitely something to do with the specific clone because tree that stood side by side had different taste. Bitterness was sometimes very pronounced sometimes almost not present. So it is worth checking different trees and seaching for better clones.
Mikkel was so kind and sent me samples of the Poncirus from Ellerhoop. To my taste, it was quite bitter and fruits just average. But harvest and position of the fruits my play a role.
I found one Poncirus type with almost no bitterness and much less repellant taste and smell. I could taste fruits in two subsequent years, grafted twigs to normal Poncirus and could taste my own fruits last year. Taste was always much better than other Poncirus types I know. (I do not know Swamp Lemon and Poncirus+.) Still, I would not call it "lovely" or "inviting". Lemonade, however, is very good (better aroma than orange or lemon lemonade) but only if you let the juice stand in an open glas for one night, so that the sticky oil can be seperated and certain pine flavors disappear.

Aside from fruit taste, I found other differences between Poncirus types. Some tended to bloom several times a year and especially in autumn during warm spells. Other never did that. My favorate finding never breaks dormancy during warm weather in autumn, even not in a green house. But precocious Poncirus frustrated me because it tries to bloom in autumn when weather is warm. But the flower buds are not totally mature at that moment. So I get flowers the wrong time and the flowers are misdeveloped so that I do not even get pollen. I also know a Poncirus in Bonn botanical garden that blooms in autumn and sometimes also in summer. Another Poncirus in Bonn does not do that.

So whoever wants to improve Poncirus by crossbreeding may also look at plant characteristics that influence winter dormancy.

Thank you very much, Ilya11, for your clear comparision of fruits. That gives me a good idea of the differences. And I would say, Poncirus+ must be much better than the best type I found. My type has a normal amount of sticky oil. It tastes less sour than other Poncirus but the difference is not so great. Still sour. Perhaps just a false perception because it has less repellant aromata than other Poncirus types. But the juice is definitely not bitter (to my taste).

SoCal2warm

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2020, 06:29:09 PM »
When I visited (fellow member of this forum) Jim VH, he said he wanted me to try his poncirus plant. He said he had originally grown the plant from seed, and he believed it was special, that the inside of the fruits did not have any bad flavors. He kept insisting I just bite into the fruit.
I initially thought he might be playing a prank on me, get me to bite down and then be stuck with a terrible flavor in my mouth that wouldn't go away.
I cautiously took a little nibble, and then a bigger bite. It did not have any bad or bitter flavors. No poncirus off flavors.
Now it certainly wasn't good fruit quality, but it didn't have anything about it that could really be described as bad. It had a sort of pine-like flavor.
Jim VH believes this could be a special seedling. The plant is about 4 feet tall. (in Vancouver, WA, right across the bridge from Portland)

Now in complete fairness, I've never actually tasted a poncirus fruit before, but I have tasted a few poncirus hybrids (TaiTri, Glen citrangedin), so I have a good idea what the nasty flavor is like.

At least from my personal perspective, and experience eating it, I completely agree with him that his "special" poncirus plant doesn't seem to have any bad flavor, and is edible. Not sweet, mostly insipid and dry, but no characteristic poncirus bad flavor that I can discern.
Jim said the outer rind has some bad poncirus flavor though, just not the inside. The plant certainly looked just like any other poncirus I had seen, more like Flying Dragon. The plant itself did not look anything like a hybrid.

Till

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2020, 04:30:05 AM »
Interesting!

The Poncirus types I tasted were always very aromatic. Lemonade of all types (after one night, without the oils...) tasted orangelike not so much lemonlike with strong flavor even after delusion with approximately 6-8 parts of water.

I found it interesting that the sugar content of Ilya11s samples is so different. When I look into Japanese gen bank NIAS (https://www.gene.affrc.go.jp/databases-plant_search_en.php), I find high sugar content in many Poncirus types.

I am asking myself why Poncirus+ has such a small amount of sticky oils. Is it perhaps heterozygous in that respect, I mean it has only one active gene producing the oil? If so we could totally breed it out by selfing. Has somebody grown Poncirus+ seedlings to maturity?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 04:36:40 AM by Till »

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2020, 04:44:32 AM »
No poncirus off flavors.
.... It had a sort of pine-like flavor.

For sure it is a matter of personal preferences but to me the pine-like flavour is also an off flavour.
To my impression this pine-like flavour is even more present in many F1 hybrids. At least the ones I tested.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2020, 09:32:20 AM »
Has somebody grown Poncirus+ seedlings to maturity?
As far as I know nobody tried this.
In the same region (South Cost of Crimea) one friend of mine has found another 'edible' clone that people growing it call 'bergamote' and use to flavour tea.
I also believe that high summer heat and harvest of fully ripened fruits greatly influence poncirus taste.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2020, 11:01:38 AM »


I also believe that high summer heat and harvest of fully ripened fruits greatly influence poncirus taste.

My feeling is that the taste is also less bitter when the fruit is older. The fruits I tested, which were on the verge of edibility, were often less bitter.
I think that's why Ellerhoop was better when I found the first fruit. Fresh fruits from Ellerhoop turned out to be bitter, at least for my family and Till :)
The resin content of poncirus might be another story though.

jim VH

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2020, 12:32:20 PM »
Actually, the original Flying Dragon seedling came from One Green World nursery in Oregon; the seedlings I gave SoCal were grown from the fruit of this tree, just to the left of the small window.


Planted in 2007, it's about 8-9 feet tall.   Interestingly-or not- the top third of the tree has become thornless, while the bottom 2/3 is wicked curved thorns.

Taste is subjective. I tend to describe mine as tasting like Vicks medicated lemon cough drops, but pine is probably close enough to menthol as to be interchangeable.  Either way, the powerful lemon flavor is by far the dominant one.   As Socal reports, I detect no bitterness, unlike my Dunstan citrumelo, which is just plain nasty.  It's quite sour.

 I actually enjoy the flavor, though I wouldn't eat a lot straight from the plant , unless you need to wake up in the morning.  It does have it's uses, however.  My nephews make a killer mixed drink from the juice, and I find that adding the strained juice of a dozen  or so fruits per gallon of my apple-quince sauce enhances the flavor in a good way.

Given all I've read about how awful trifoliate flavor was, I was wondering if it was special, but after reading the above posts, it doesn't seem to be unique in any way.  It appears that there is a vast continuum of edibility between seedlings; mine possibly lies towards the upper end of the edibility range.

There's quite a range of fruit sizes; the larger ones are full of seeds but some of the smallest ones are seedless, or nearly so.  Next fall crop I can do a sediment test like some of the above posters and see how the juice compares.  I can also measure Brix and acid levels and post them.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2020, 01:12:51 PM »
Your Poncirus sounds very interesting Jim. Please post about it when you have fruits.
Thanks!

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2020, 06:42:22 PM »
Jim_VH,  I also have one FD plant growing similarly upright.
Its taste is much better than that of a common poncirus, but fruits are much smaller. It also has  not more than 10  seeds per fruit, in seasons with cold spring they are mostly seedless.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

jim VH

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2020, 11:07:37 AM »
Ilya,

My informal observation while cutting 'em up for juice is that fruit size and seed count are correlated.  The more seeds, the larger the fruit, which kinda makes sense.  The fruit from mine range from about 3 to 4 cm and very seedy to perhaps 1.5 cm and few or no seeds.  Next fall I'll arrange a few along a ruler to display the range, then cut them open to show the seed content, as in the photos from the posters above.

Cold springs tend to keep the pollinators at home, which may explain the fewer seeds.  The flowers are not very attractive to bees- I've never seen a honeybee on them, unlike the other citrus.  I'm not sure what pollinates; Possibly ants, which seem to collect nectar from the blooms.

I suspect part of the reason mine is so upright is because I prune it severely to keep it confined to the narrow space between the house and the walkway in front.  Elsewise I'd be gored by the thorns when I go by.  That probably forces it upwards.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2020, 01:34:45 PM »
I also suspect the absence of pollinators as an explanation for the absence of seeds. But strangely enough the nearby regular poncirus is giving always the fruits cracking from seeds.
What is a spectacular shrub to the left of  your FD. Some kind of Rhaphiolepsis?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Bomand

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2020, 09:32:16 AM »
When you keep a tree pruned sometimes you remove the fruiting wood. If this is done you might get very few bloom, few fruit and without seed..........

jim VH

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2020, 11:08:02 AM »
Hi Ilya,

The small shrub to the left of the FD is a Myrtus Ugni, AKA Ugni Molina, AKA Chilean Guava. 
I suspect you meant the large shrub to the right.  It is a Louis Edmund Manzanita.  Species name is Arctostaphylos.

Off topic horticultural note: Manzanitas are native to western North America, ranging from Southern British Columbia south down the coast to California, then east to Texas.  Very drought tolerant, with many cultivars.  Related to the much larger Madrone tree- species name Arbutis- a native of the coast of British Columbia , Washington, Oregon and northern California.  Both species have smooth colorful bark and evergreen leaves.

Bomand, I hear you, but my plant is more like an espalier, severely pruned to a narrow shape in the front and back, but allowed to grow on the sides.  Plenty of blooms,fruit of all sizes and seedinesses.  There is something in what you say, however.  I've noticed fruit size appears to be stratified in size from top to bottom, with the largest fruit on the top and the smallest on the bottom.  Fruit size also appears to be getting larger year over year as the tree grows.


Jibro

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2020, 04:57:57 AM »

 Jiri in the Czech Republic tested several varieties of Poncirus last autumn. Here is the website:
http://citrusy.info/test-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody/
english translation: https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcitrusy.info%2Ftest-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody%2F

I was also sent some fruits. And I can confirm his results.


I have some new information, I have grafted 4 different poncirus from my test on to one poncirus rootstock in December 2019 (indoor), Flying Dragon "VS" had only 3 flowers, I cross polinated them with Citrumelo 5* and surprisingly one fruit was fully ripen in August 20.



I have tried taste right after picking fruit, so no influence from storage period and taste was once again good. I was able to eat pulp without any terrible aftertaste, taste was less sour than lemon, Brix 8° some bitternes but nothing stick on teeth.

Fruit had only 6 fully developed seeds with normal size, 6 smaller and 21 was undeveloped, flat. They are already in the substrate and I will look for hybrid with citrumelo...


This is third year I have tested this  Flying Dragon "VS" and I believe it has better taste than ordinary trifoliate and this is not influenced by growing condition or heat but most likely by genetics.
We have unusually cold and rainy weather this summer and the taste is still less sour than fruit from mother plant growing in warmer locality last year.



More detailed photos are in my original article below tittle: Aktualizace srpen 2020, you can translate it if you open it with Google Chrome browser, right click and "Translate to"
http://citrusy.info/test-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody/

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2020, 01:02:11 PM »
Jiri, a presence of underdeveloped seeds is probably a good sign of zygotic nature of this variety.
Have you also tried to germinated them? In some cases, liberated from testa they are able to give seedlings.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Jibro

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2020, 03:04:37 PM »
I am not sure about zygotic nature, seeds were fully developed in last two years and seedlings from previous years looks also uniform with only few abnormal. Is it possible that high number of undeveloped seeds this year was caused by unusual growing condition: indoors during winter months with low light and low humidity, with stable temperature around 20°C?

I planted all the seeds, I've only put the 6 big seeds into separate container...so we will see.

Seeds - 2018



Seeds - 2019



Seedlings - 2018 fruit



 

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