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Author Topic: Poncirus fruit comparison  (Read 4278 times)

Ilya11

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Poncirus fruit comparison
« on: November 22, 2018, 06:06:37 AM »
Below is a comparison of three poncirus varieties:

From left to right: Poncirus B.Voss-45 gram,  SwampLemon-41 gram  , PoncirusTrifoliata+ -41gram



Poncirus from B.Voss is almost all seeds (45), SwampLemon contains 21 seeds and PT+ 25seeds



After seed extraction:



Very small quantity of juice in classical poncirus, very high quantity of soluble matters (20° Brix), very acid, bitter oil emulsion

Swamp Lemon: 4 ml of juice, 9° Brix, acid, some bitterness, oils are present and stick to dents

PT+:  6 ml of juice, 10° Brix, acid, less bitter than SL, oils are probably there because of astringent taste, but do not stick to dents




I diluted all three juices with water to 5° Brix and kept them overnight in  refrigerator:



Poncirus Voss: acid, some bitterness, sharp taste, but not much revolting to three people who tasted it, sticky oils with typical poncirus taste are in yellow sediment

SwampLemon: taste more diluted, essentially the same appreciation as above, probably less bitterness and acidity, sticky oils are in yellow sediment

PT+ :  taste almost like white grapefruit but less sweet, some lemony note, sediment consists mostly of pulp membrane residues, may be some oils, but drastically less than in two previous cases.

For me these results are still inconclusive, especially in case of SwampLemon versus usual poncirus.

Best regards,
                       Ilya

eyeckr

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 12:55:33 AM »
Nice detailed post. Thanks for the comparison!

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 04:55:54 AM »
So Poncirus+ seems to be most promising if one tries to use PT-fruits for consumation. I think of extracting aromas for tonic-water for new recipies.

Florian

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 10:54:19 AM »
Thanks a lot Ilya for this comparison.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 02:35:59 PM »
Thanks you Ilya!
very interesting that Swamp Lemon and Poncirus+ look much more alike from the outside compared to standard Poncirus.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 05:15:30 PM »
No, it is just their different position, All three look very much alike.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Citradia

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 07:26:51 PM »
Oh my goodness; I was hoping swamp lemon would be the answer to my prayers. I guess it’s not that much different from PT. If I did find a “swamp lemon” in the swamps of eastern NC, it would be hard to tell if it was swamp lemon or just another PT.

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2018, 07:35:22 AM »
Oh my goodness; I was hoping swamp lemon would be the answer to my prayers. I guess it’s not that much different from PT. If I did find a “swamp lemon” in the swamps of eastern NC, it would be hard to tell if it was swamp lemon or just another PT.
It is obvious that at least this year, freshly cut Swamp Lemon is very different from the "ordinary" poncirus .
I guess that the amount of juice is inversely proportional to the seed number. It could be that a limited number of seeds is a feature of Swamp Lemon and explains why people consider it more acceptable than ordinary poncirus. Also, as you see my poncirus has green color of the pulp, while two other fruits are both  yellow inside. 
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Citradia

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 08:09:15 PM »
My PT fruit didn’t have green pulp. Maybe pulp color indicates variety?

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 10:57:44 AM »
This weekend I found an interesting Poncirus.
I took pictures like Ilya did.
I found this fruit interesting as the plant description in park said it is a lemon substitute... sounded like on ebay :)
There was only 1 fruit on the tree but several rotten on the ground.
There were other plants grown as a hedge with only few tiny fruits Might be seedlings of it.

The fruit is fuzzy like any Poncirus fruit. You can`t see it on the picture.

Inside like any other Poncirus (left fruit is a rotten one, not the one i used for taste test)


Juice of the Ellerhoop tree


Diluteted juice after 1 1/2 days



There is only some pulp in the diluted juice but nothing more.

Juice is free from resin and sour. No bitterness to my taste ( but I can`t be used as scale :) )
When you bite into the pulp there is some resin but not much and it is not very sticky to the teeth. It did not last long.
There is some bitterness in the peel.
I asked friends to taste it they found some bitterness in the pulp. But only a little. None said it is aweful...
Taste is a highly subjective matter I think. It would be good to have more fruits but so far i need to wait for next year.
I will see if it is as good as this  fruit.


The supposed seedlings are similar in taste but there is no juice in it. I found 3 tiny fruits in the hedge all are more or less the same.
Pulp is more greenish than in the "mother". You can`t see it on the picture.

Tonight I will taste the diluted juice.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:59:50 PM by mikkel »

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 12:16:05 PM »
Very interesting, how many seeds were there?
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2018, 12:55:03 PM »
31 in the Ellerhoop plant and 28 in one of the smaller fruits.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 04:06:34 PM »

this is the bottom sediment of the juice. I applied it directly to my teeth :) no sticky resin.

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2018, 02:46:05 AM »
not really off-topic but beside-topic :)

these are Poncirus seedlings all siblings, same age, same treatment.


hardyvermont

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 05:38:13 PM »
not really off-topic but beside-topic :)

these are Poncirus seedlings all siblings, same age, same treatment.



Mikkel, what has happened to those plants since you posted.

Millet

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 06:29:06 PM »
Ilya11,  what is different about Poncirus B. Voss than regular poncirus?  I am not familiar with it. 

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2020, 03:33:45 AM »
I named it like this because the only thing I know, that it was used as a rootstock by B.Voss.
Like Mikkel  showed above there is no "regular" PT, there is a huge variability.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2020, 05:38:50 AM »
Mikkel, what has happened to those plants since you posted.

they ended up as rootstock :)

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2020, 05:43:41 AM »
on B.Voss old website he reported about a Poncirus  which flowered within 1 year . He found it by accident.
 Even Eisenhut had it. Now it is lost.
@Ilya11 did you ever grew seedlings of your Voss Poncirus?

Ilya11

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2020, 08:23:27 AM »
Yes, most of my plants are grafted on it.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Walt

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2020, 12:48:12 PM »
A lot of useful information here.  Thank you.

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2020, 08:16:21 AM »
Fruit quality of Poncirus seems to vary a lot from year to year. My fruits of 2019 were quite good (Zdenek said, they were the best he had ever tasted). After two weeks of storing there was quite much juice and very few bitterness in it. We had a very long summer and autumn ended with November or the fist week of December. Maybe the fruits are better when they are riper? We had almost no frost until Christmas and the last fruit of Citrumelo 5* I took home was only as bitter as a normal white grapefruit and had also some sweetness.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:12:08 PM by Millet »

mikkel

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2020, 08:49:00 AM »
I found poncirus fruits that had already fallen to the ground were much less bitter and less resinous compared to freshly picked fruits.

 Jiri in the Czech Republic tested several varieties of Poncirus last autumn. Here is the website:
http://citrusy.info/test-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody/
english translation: https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcitrusy.info%2Ftest-5-ruznych-trifoliat-s-pozivatelnymi-plody%2F

I was also sent some fruits. And I can confirm his results.

Walt

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2020, 01:31:49 PM »
Again, very interesting and very informative.

"If I manage to graft these clones to one older trifoliate in spring, they will grow on the same rootstock, under the same climatic conditions, and have the same irrigation and fertilization. Then I will be able to provide more accurate information and confirm whether the actual differences in taste are genetically determined or have been influenced by growing conditions."

The quote above shows that more, better, information may come later.  But even grafted on the same tree, there will be environmental differences.  As has been mentioned on this forum before, fruit from the north side of a tree will be different from fruit from the south side of the tree.  And the link itself mentions that there are differences in elevation and other differences where the varieties were grown.
Thanks to all who have added to this thread, and to all who might add more in the future.

Till

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Re: Poncirus fruit comparison
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2020, 04:50:45 PM »
I also tasted fruits from different Poncirus trees. The taste and juiciness of the fruits has definitely something to do with the specific clone because tree that stood side by side had different taste. Bitterness was sometimes very pronounced sometimes almost not present. So it is worth checking different trees and seaching for better clones.
Mikkel was so kind and sent me samples of the Poncirus from Ellerhoop. To my taste, it was quite bitter and fruits just average. But harvest and position of the fruits my play a role.
I found one Poncirus type with almost no bitterness and much less repellant taste and smell. I could taste fruits in two subsequent years, grafted twigs to normal Poncirus and could taste my own fruits last year. Taste was always much better than other Poncirus types I know. (I do not know Swamp Lemon and Poncirus+.) Still, I would not call it "lovely" or "inviting". Lemonade, however, is very good (better aroma than orange or lemon lemonade) but only if you let the juice stand in an open glas for one night, so that the sticky oil can be seperated and certain pine flavors disappear.

Aside from fruit taste, I found other differences between Poncirus types. Some tended to bloom several times a year and especially in autumn during warm spells. Other never did that. My favorate finding never breaks dormancy during warm weather in autumn, even not in a green house. But precocious Poncirus frustrated me because it tries to bloom in autumn when weather is warm. But the flower buds are not totally mature at that moment. So I get flowers the wrong time and the flowers are misdeveloped so that I do not even get pollen. I also know a Poncirus in Bonn botanical garden that blooms in autumn and sometimes also in summer. Another Poncirus in Bonn does not do that.

So whoever wants to improve Poncirus by crossbreeding may also look at plant characteristics that influence winter dormancy.

Thank you very much, Ilya11, for your clear comparision of fruits. That gives me a good idea of the differences. And I would say, Poncirus+ must be much better than the best type I found. My type has a normal amount of sticky oil. It tastes less sour than other Poncirus but the difference is not so great. Still sour. Perhaps just a false perception because it has less repellant aromata than other Poncirus types. But the juice is definitely not bitter (to my taste).

 

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