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Author Topic: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial  (Read 10188 times)

usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2019, 04:29:57 PM »
Kumin, interesting that your Poncirus varies from almost no stalk to a short stalk. My poncirus Show on all flowers nearly no stalk. My HRS 899 is indeed a hybrod which includes many viewable poncirus characteristics. Also the fruit show also haurs on its skin, but the shape is more like a pear, see my post of Januray this year: http://tropicalfruitforum.com/index.php?topic=30863.0  Tomorow I will smell at the flowers whether they smell otherwise than poncirus flowers do.
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Zitrusgaertner

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2019, 04:37:19 PM »
Don't think this is 899. Ihave four of them and none of them has flowers like the ones you show. They look like PT-flowers. I had an early blooming PT "Kryder" that produced Flowers with pink stamens.

usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2019, 05:16:41 PM »
My one is one of several HRS 899 seedlings selections from Bernhard Voss.
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kumin

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2019, 05:42:42 PM »
Usirius, the pink stamen color looks very similar to the pink leaf parts on your fruit photo. I have seen a bit of reddish color in autumn, but never such a distinct pink on my trees.

kumin

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2019, 06:14:06 PM »
The deep green F2 hybrids are breaking buds at present. All of them were later than Poncirus. Temperatures obviously play a role on timing, but overall they are 10-14 days after Poncirus. In both Poncirus and the F2 hybrids, any tissue that's olive-green rather than deep green is compromised and struggles to break buds and begin to grow. In most cases the upper stem may fail to bud out, but the lower stem will bud out. The winter we've just come through wasn't the coldest I've seen, but probably in the 75 percentile.

Olive green branches struggle to begin growth (Poncirus)






It's amazing any segentranges survived, considering the extent of damage Poncirus shows.

kumin

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #105 on: April 23, 2019, 07:18:48 AM »
Here are 2 photos of plants I had potted up in March. These are advanced further than the ones that remain field planted. The new growth is fairly vigorous. Conestoga # 001



This plant doesn't appear to be particularly thorny. Photo was taken at sunrise. Conestoga # 002

« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 09:29:48 AM by kumin »

usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #106 on: April 23, 2019, 01:27:36 PM »
Kumin,
thank you for sharing your experiences with Segentranges versus Poncirus trifoliata and also for the really impressing pictures.
I also have seen that segentranges show a longer period of winter rest than PT itself. Also Poncirus polyandra in plain air and also in greenhouse (!) stay for about 14 days longer in dormancy than Poncirus trifoliata  - can be compared with the Segentranges.
Today I put my nose to the flowers of my HRS 899 segentrange and I would sy it smells a little bit more than Poncirus trifoliata flowers do. The HRS 899 segentrange flowers are also larger than those of my Poncirus trifoliata. My Poncirus trifoliata does only show slightly pink coloured Stamens. The one HRS 899 Sgeentrange which I have is the only one which survived in 17 years. I had several phenotypes but one after the other died in the first winters. And this one which I described here survived without any damages for such a Long time. Also it survived more times early beginning of spring with  following night freezes - whew my poncirus got slightly damaged in some years. So I would propose ist hardiness is due to longer dormancy better than this of Ponirus trifoliata.
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kumin

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2019, 05:35:24 AM »
It's interesting that Poncirus polyandra shows a bit of similarity to citranges. P. polyandra isn't considered to be a Citrus- Poncirus hybrid, but either a sister species to P. trifoliata, or perhaps ancestral to it. In some aspects it's apparently intermediate between Citrus and P. trifoliata, or perhaps closer to Citrus than P. trifoliata is.
Having suggested this, I have no experience with P. polyandra, and haven't seen it.

mikkel

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #108 on: April 24, 2019, 07:03:53 AM »
It is way less winter hardy than P.t.. I had diebacks at -6°C at least it recovered. Usirius how is yours? Is hardy it in open ground for you?

usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2019, 04:53:47 PM »
kumin,

if I would not know that is really Poncirus Polyandra I would say that is a Citrange. The Habitus and the foliage is very similar most types of Citranges. I am still waiting for flowers and fruits. As far as I have seen there are two phenotypes....othe ne with larger foliage and the other with clearly smaller foliage.

mikkel,

I think it is more hardy than -6°C. During longer enduring periods of frost I cover it with a rug - and if temperatures go down in the night below -10°C I heat with a 5 W lamp. This is enough - may be this effort is more than necessary - because it did not show any damages accoridng this treatment through all the years.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 03:18:41 AM by usirius »
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mikkel

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2019, 02:36:34 AM »
@usirius okay. This encourages me to give it another try.
Do you have any picture of the two types you spoke of?
I know of a plant in a botanic garden in Germany and another one in a private collection which is already flowering. But I haven`t heared of fruits so far. No idea if these are the same plant.



usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2019, 03:18:09 AM »
mikkel

I did not see the other plants you named. Maybe they all have the same origin.
By the way it is possible to post one or two photos which show the leaves of both phenotypes in the next days.
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Sylvain

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2019, 06:47:58 AM »
Mine flowers every year but never gave a fruit.

kumin

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2019, 12:57:00 PM »
Here's a photo of the best citrandarin of a Clementine X Poncirus F1 hybrid I grew from pollination to fruiting several decades ago. I eventually left it exposed to low winter  temperatures and promptly lost it. I sent 2 scions to a cold hardy Citrus enthusiast, Major C. Collins in Tifton, GA, but doubt that he propagated it as he had health issues, including vision impairment. I strongly regret losing this tree. It's hardiness was not remarkable.

This fruit was tart, with mandarin flavor and excellent color. The peel had faint Poncirus scent, the fruit had almost no off flavors, but was as tart as an unripe mandarin.


« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 04:19:15 AM by kumin »

usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #114 on: April 25, 2019, 04:34:03 PM »
kumin,

thank you so much for sharing this wonderful story with us. Although it is a pity that you have lost this particular hybrid, it encourages one to try your own crossbreeding attempts! - Years ago I read that it would be impossible to cross Poncirus trifoliata with Citrus ichangensis with Poncirus as mother. I thought, it doesn't work, it doesn't exist and had put it in my head to breed the citrus lucky clover leaf! And lo and behold, I have managed the pollination and the fruit has developed and from the few seeds has developed a clear hybrid, I have then almost the same mistake as you, I have planted the plant because it became too big for me and I thought it would immediately survive the next winter without protection. It came what had to come, it became a hard and very cold winter and the plant broke down, but before I had cut branches and made graftings, only these did not develop as beautifully as the mother plant! I didn't take care of it as much anymore...out of disappointment as it happened.  - Now I try to hybridize the HRS899 Segentrange with Citrus Lemonade. The Citrus Lemonade is a hybrid Citrus limon x reticulata and ist fruits  have a wonderful Aroma - it taste like a good tasting Lemonade. Here are some pictures of my HRS899 Segentrange - branches and flowers, I have cut it down last winter mercilessly this year because it is very vigorous and flowers relatively little. Here are some recent pictures of the leaves and flowers, also of the thorns. You can compare the habitus with your Poncirus varieties!















« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 04:46:15 PM by usirius »
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usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #115 on: April 25, 2019, 04:51:42 PM »
Sylvain,
interesting that also flowering is no sign for fruting! I never have seen fruits from it - also no pgotos from it. Enclosed there are some pictrues which show the two phenotypes that are existing according to my knowledge - the small leafed and the large leafed one. Which one do you have in culture?























„May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.“ N. Mandela

mikkel

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #116 on: April 25, 2019, 05:09:51 PM »
Mine looks like the one on the 4th picture. It comes originally from BG Darmstadt.
I just tried to find the pictures of the flowering plant  to see if it is different but I can not find the link. Maybe later...
usirius do you have both types?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:12:31 PM by mikkel »

kumin

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #117 on: April 25, 2019, 07:31:19 PM »
Beautiful pictures, the petioles are quite elongated. The entire leaf has a pointed, longer aspect. P.trifoliata has a shorter, blunter look to the leaves. One of my citranges superficially had some resemblance to these photos.


Sylvain

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2019, 09:27:35 AM »
Mine looks like the first and last picture. It comes from Horst.
The folioles are very thin.



And this is a drawing of the original plant:



We can see that the one with thin leaflet is the right one. The other could be a hybrid.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 10:13:27 AM by Sylvain »

mikkel

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2019, 10:17:22 AM »
Found the link: This is the plant from Horst. The same as Sylvains.

http://yuccaundanderefreilandsukkulenten.xobor.de/t1071f9-Erstbluete.html

Ilya11

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #120 on: April 26, 2019, 10:37:29 AM »
Usirius,
- Years ago I read that it would be impossible to cross Poncirus trifoliata with Citrus ichangensis with Poncirus as mother.
Last year just out of fun I  pollinated 7 castrated  Swamp Lemon Poncirus flowers with C.ichangensis IVIA358 pollen. Five fruits yielded 178 seeds, giving 224 seedlings. At least 64 of them were clear hybrids, with shape of their leaves intermediate between those of poncirus and ichangesis.

Now I try to hybridize the HRS899 Segentrange with Citrus Lemonade.

Strictly saying HRS899 seedlings from B.Voss are segendarins (second generation citrandarins), not segentanges ;D
Best regards,
                       Ilya

usirius

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2019, 11:22:34 AM »
Ilya11,

that sounds interesting what you did with crossing Poncirus and ichangensis also with success. So it is possible - against the things what I have read in litertaure many years ago. Did yiu have been able to have plants which Show leafes with four similar large parts ?

Yes and you are right.....the F2 generation of HRS899 are Segendarins!


Sylvain,

thank you for sharing the Picture of you. You mentioned my Picture No. 5 (not 4) ? So this is the larger foliated phenotype. The smaller foliated phenotype seem to be more frost hardy. Both phentotypes have been discovered many years ago in the Yunnan Region in China by a friend of me - and buddhist Monks told him that both are species of P. Polyandra. So I believe that there are Minimum  two phenotpyes existing. My friend did only see one fruit in rather grat tree. One aother intersting Thing is that the origin great trees Show succers at their roots!


mikkel:

thanks for the link for the picture. It Shows the larger foliated phenotype which I also have.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:49:23 AM by usirius »
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Ilya11

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2019, 11:56:22 AM »
Did yiu have been able to have plants which Show leafes with four simalr large parts ?
Not really, most have the smaller back side leaflets like this:

Best regards,
                       Ilya

Sylvain

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2019, 12:16:16 PM »
I said "first and last picture." that is #1 and #12.
#4 is ok too but not #5.

You can read more here:
http://www.agrumes-passion.com/poncirus-citranges-porte-greffes-rustiques-f67/topic123-15.html

Sylvain

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Re: F2 citrange winter hardiness trial
« Reply #124 on: April 26, 2019, 12:24:28 PM »
Error, sorry.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 01:13:33 PM by Sylvain »

 

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