Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers



Author Topic: Citrus tachibana  (Read 756 times)

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Citrus tachibana
« on: March 16, 2019, 06:08:26 PM »
Anyone growing Citrus tachibana?
According to Swingle it is strongly resistant to frost and snow.
Unfit for eating?

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 06:42:04 PM »
It's probably close to Changsha mandarin in terms of edibility, though a bit more sour.

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 07:01:23 PM »
It's probably close to Changsha mandarin in terms of edibility, though a bit more sour.

"Changsha produces heavy crops of small, puffy, and seedy fruit. However, the fruit is very sweet and juicy."

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 08:17:33 PM »
This is just from memory, the impression I got from reading about it in some research, it's a very close relative of C. reticula (mandarin) but more like a wild mandarin cousin. The flavor is probably a bit more bland, less sweet, and definitely inferior to a normal mandarin, but not distasteful.

C. tachibana has apparently been used in the past to breed several other native Japanese citrus varieties. It is the only citrus species believed to have been native to the islands of Japan.

It has moderate fairly good tolerance and apparently is quite accustomed to the growing conditions in Japan. (Which probably means its native climate is zone 9 but it can also survive zone 8, possibly with a bit of difficulty further north.
It's probably adapted to a somewhat cooler maritime climate than typical citrus.

You can take that for whatever it's worth. (Just some rough information in case you cannot find a better accurate source)

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 08:34:12 PM »
Yes I read the description. It's a wild mandarin native to Japan. The use it decoratively at shrines and imperial buildings.
I am more interested if someone ever tasted one.
It's used as a rootstock in Japan for satsuma mandarin along with Yuzu. Maybe try to adapt it to zone 8.


lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 08:38:45 PM »
This is just from memory, the impression I got from reading about it in some research

I know you try to find new hybrids, Shekwasha Citrus depressa, could be candidate. Another wild mandarin native to Japan and Taiwan. Hard to find much information about it's hardiness, but I suspect less hardy than tachibana. Fruits are very sour, used as a lime substitute and medicine.


Sylvain

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
    • Bergerac, France
    • View Profile
    • Looking for Wakonai.
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2019, 08:52:27 AM »
> "Changsha produces heavy crops of small, puffy, and seedy fruit. However, the fruit is very sweet and juicy."
Mines are big and not very seedy. They are not puffy but easy to peel. The rest is as you say: heavy crops, sweet and juicy but it is a good mandarine, not a very good mandarine.

hardyvermont

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 40
    • Anderson SC z 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 12:56:47 PM »
> "Changsha produces heavy crops of small, puffy, and seedy fruit. However, the fruit is very sweet and juicy."
Mines are big and not very seedy. They are not puffy but easy to peel. The rest is as you say: heavy crops, sweet and juicy but it is a good mandarine, not a very good mandarine.
Two years ago at the Southeastern Citrus Meeting I tasted the irradiated nearly seedless Changsha from Dr. Hanna.  It was very bland, which others had also described for the standard Changsha.  The fruit that got the award for Best in Show was also a Changsha, and it tasted very good.  It was fairly seedy.  There is a selection called Honey Changsha.

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 01:13:26 PM »
How cold hardy is Changsha?

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 03:41:34 PM »
How cold hardy is Changsha?
Supposedly maybe 10 degrees F, but probably more like 11.
Keep in mind that's that absolute minimum it is capable of surviving, it may not do well down to that temperature. In the South it will be able to recover better than somewhere further North.

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 05:50:53 PM »
How cold hardy is Changsha?
Supposedly maybe 10 degrees F, but probably more like 11.
Keep in mind that's that absolute minimum it is capable of surviving, it may not do well down to that temperature. In the South it will be able to recover better than somewhere further North.

I guess it would survive in an unheated green house with good ventilation and a heat sink.

What about Citrus depressa? Not much information about its cold hardiness, native in southern japan and mountainous area in Taiwan. This is very sour, but good to burn fat  ;D

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 07:33:55 PM »
What about Citrus depressa? Not much information about its cold hardiness, native in southern japan and mountainous area in Taiwan.
A genetic study in Japan showed a close affinity between C. depressa (Shikuwasa) and C. tachibana, but it was not a direct parent-offspring relationship. Suffice to say they are probably related, and do not simply constitute separate species. C. depressa also showed a smaller degree of Yuzu or C. ichangensis ancestry.

It's really difficult to say exactly how these varieties might have originally came about.

eyeckr

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
    • Virginia Beach, VA
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 08:09:54 PM »
I have citrus depressa (Shekwasha), citrus amblycarpa (Nasnaran) and changsha ("Honey" variety). My Shekwasha has survived every cold event that has come my way for the past 15 years which includes out surviving all my kumquats/kumquat hybrids, tiawanica, satsumas and more. We have gotten as low as 4-5 degrees F, maybe slightly lower. It has struggled the last couple of years and now is very small but it is still hanging in there. I grafted it on flying dragon about 4 feet up. If it were not grafted high up on flying dragon I don't think it would have survived all these years.

My ungrafted changsha died to the ground the year we hit 4-5F and barely came back from the roots that summer. Luckily I had enough material to graft it onto a trifoliate rootstock that I had growing right next to it and it survives today. The little sprout from the roots eventually died off.

I had a small Nasnaran graft out but it never got a chance to get established before we got slammed with single degree weather. It would be worth trying out again. I think the fruit taste similar to Tang. I have fruit currently on a potted tree. I can offer some seed or fruit in the for sale section if there is any interest.

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 08:19:18 PM »
From what I read in Japanese books Citrus depressa is subtropical. It doesn't winter well in Japan where satsumas grow. And it should over winter above freezing. It seems like if below freezing the next year won't produce fruit. The fruit is used same like Sudachi when green. When ripe is sweet. Is interesting that it tolerates high pH, and calcarous soil. Maybe a good candidate in container culture as a rootstock where tap water is used. P. trifoliata on the other hand is sensitive to alkaline soil.
C. tachibana is truly wild and takes cold and snow well. The fruit is bitter, and not eaten in Japan.
I will give a try to test Citrus depressa.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2019, 08:32:49 PM »
Pretty sure none of these are going to be hardier than Yuzu, so they're not going to survive in zone 7.

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2019, 08:41:18 PM »
I have a grafted yuzu it survived well over this winter. The others will be in an unheated greenhouse. I also have a kereji that is doing well. The winters here are very cold only for a couple of weeks that can go down to -11 to -15C in January that is the only critical period. Most of the time during the hard freezing it's a lot of snow like 20-30cm that keeps all the plants beneath. Very sunny winters so only the night is cold. Besides that spring starts very early. Now it's already 23C during the day.

SoCal2warm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • zone 10 and zone 8a
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2019, 08:53:18 PM »
Is your Keraji growing outside unprotected?
You said you are in Bucharest, are you in the middle of a city or further out with open yard space?
How many years has it survived?

Your Yuzu was also unprotected in any way?
Is it near the wall of a home?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 08:56:12 PM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2019, 03:58:55 PM »
I am right in the center of the city, surrounded  by low rise concrete houses, facing south.
So I guess it's a microclimate and it could be zone 8a or b.
I didn't dare to test the trees as it's not easy to get another ones.
So I can tell you -4C was all I tested so far for Yuzu and satsuma. They are grafted.
Kereji I just got it this year. I will wait to make fruits and graft few trees for experiment.
I am not so interested to grow them in open field, my trials are to see how to grow them in a poly tunnel using passive energy methods becasue there I could control the temperature, say a very cold spike for few days.
I will try to get depressa and maybe tachibana. There are also many japanese citruses not available outside japan that survive cold and are cold hardy, but most of them are recent research.
A deciduous citrus with good fruit would be the best.

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2019, 07:17:54 PM »
Yuzu has many different clones with a large variation as to winter hardiness.
Highly grafted Keraji is more resistant than satsumas and average Yuzu; in my garden it was not damaged during  two seasons with episodes of ~10 days without soil defrost and night temperatures of -9C.
During them one of my Yuzus  was defoliated, another got severe frostbites.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2019, 06:32:43 AM »
Highly grafted Keraji is more resistant than satsumas and average Yuzu

Why should it be grafted 50 cm above? Kereji is more sensitive to phytophthora, do you think it attacks when it rains and water splashes to bud union?

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2019, 10:06:02 AM »
High grafting on poncirus rootstock improves greatly  cold hardiness.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2019, 04:11:57 PM »
High grafting on poncirus rootstock improves greatly  cold hardiness.

I was wondering what is the reason of this.
Closer to ground is warmer than 1 m high.

Ilya11

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
    • France, Paris region, Vaux le Penil, middle of Northern z8
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2019, 04:20:57 PM »
Not during the winter atmospheric inversion.
Frostbites occur usually in the lower part of the trunk.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

kumin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
    • USA PA 6b
    • View Profile
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2019, 05:02:49 PM »
This is especially noticeable when there is snow on the ground. The snow acts as an insulating barrier, not allowing warmth to radiate up from the soil. This creates a layer of super chilled air directly above the snow as there is little mixing of air layers close to ground. I have seen as much as 5 degrees Celsius colder on top of the snow, in contrast to 2 meters above the snow.

lebmung

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • Romania, Bucharest,7b
    • View Profile
    • Plante tropicale
Re: Citrus tachibana
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2019, 02:06:24 PM »
I am not convinced by this reasoning.  At least not in my climate, continental dry.
It makes sense if there is snow. Without notuch here. I read the temperature of the soil it's always warmer.
The low freezing by temperatures occur when it's clear sky. So that means during the day it's sunny and during the night is the coldest. But the sun is warmingup the soil. Here the cold comes as an air mass from siberia, without the wind to bring it it would not be so cold.

 

Copyright © Tropical Fruit Forum - International Tropical Fruit Growers