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Author Topic: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus sp.) Varieties  (Read 3973 times)

Mango Stein

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2019, 10:22:28 PM »
How about A. hole ... a lot easier to remember.

Hey tuff boi. Do you do stand up? We could be looking at the next George Carlin here.
There's no such thing as "ultra tropical"

fruitlovers

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2019, 03:39:37 AM »
How about A. hole ... a lot easier to remember.
:D Yes, but you forgot, it has to be in latin?
Oscar

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2019, 04:19:37 AM »
How about A. hole ... a lot easier to remember.
:D Yes, but you forgot, it has to be in latin?

A. holeo
A. holeus
A. holeus maximus
Take your pick.  Which one sounds latin?  I'm no Einstein.

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2019, 01:47:53 PM »
I would request skhan as OP to remove Artocarpus hypargyraeus from topic title, since that is incorrect. Artocarpus is about to undergo a major shakeup thanks to phylogenomic work recently done. A paper dealing with proposed new binomials will be published in January or February. At any rate, both by current systematics and the provisional new one A. hypargyraeus is incorrect, since that has long peduncles and is not in cultivation.

What is in cultivation is indeed the real kwai muk (better pinyin would be 'gwaimuk'), but the associated binomial has almost always been mistaken. Its current ID is A. nitidus subsp. lingnanensis, but will probably become A. parvus.

I think that's a bad idea. It would mean it will be hard to search for info on kwai muk since most are used to the old name.
The best way to go imho if you want to use the new name is something like A.nitidus subsp. lingnanensis (ex hypargyraeus ).
It's long but at least you can find the thread with the old name.

Caesar

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2019, 06:42:20 PM »
Never heard of anyone selecting out choice varieties of kwai muk. I have one large tree that produces large fruits that are very tasty. Am willing to send scions to anyone interested. I just planted at a different location a whole row of kwai muk as windbreak. They were from seeds sourced from Florida some years ago from 3 different trees, so hopefully eventually i'll have more to select from and come up with different strains.

I have a seedling tree, still smaller than me, so I don't expect a harvest for a long time. That said, I'm keen on trying its own fruit, so I don't wanna top-work it. Can the scions be used as cuttings to root directly? Is there a decent strike rate? I'm interested in some proven good trees myself. Come to think of it... If cuttings were a viable strategy, I could always take cuttings of my current seedling and top-work the proven scions over it, without losing the original... I'm seeing no downside here, though it's contingent on cuttings working well for this species.

snowjunky

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2019, 07:36:10 PM »
Never heard of anyone selecting out choice varieties of kwai muk. I have one large tree that produces large fruits that are very tasty. Am willing to send scions to anyone interested. I just planted at a different location a whole row of kwai muk as windbreak. They were from seeds sourced from Florida some years ago from 3 different trees, so hopefully eventually i'll have more to select from and come up with different strains.

I have a seedling tree, still smaller than me, so I don't expect a harvest for a long time. That said, I'm keen on trying its own fruit, so I don't wanna top-work it. Can the scions be used as cuttings to root directly? Is there a decent strike rate? I'm interested in some proven good trees myself. Come to think of it... If cuttings were a viable strategy, I could always take cuttings of my current seedling and top-work the proven scions over it, without losing the original... I'm seeing no downside here, though it's contingent on cuttings working well for this species.

You can just graft the variety to a branch instead of top working your seedling, then you'll have both.

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2019, 06:18:57 AM »
We have a few trees.  We have one grafted tree purchased at Excalibur that held its first fruit last year.  The leaves are slightly different on this tree.

Finca La Isla

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2019, 12:31:55 PM »
Can you post photos of the leaves that illustrate the difference?
Thanks, Peter

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2019, 01:33:02 PM »
Can you post photos of the leaves that illustrate the difference?
Thanks, Peter

The grafted tree leaves are all uniform elliptical, whereas the seedling trees are irregular elliptical.



Grafted tree

Grafted tree



Seed grown tree

Seed grown tree

Mango Stein

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2019, 10:05:38 PM »

I think that's a bad idea. It would mean it will be hard to search for info on kwai muk since most are used to the old name.
The best way to go imho if you want to use the new name is something like A.nitidus subsp. lingnanensis (ex hypargyraeus ).
It's long but at least you can find the thread with the old name.

Mama mia. You think people prefer to search by typing hypargyreus instead of kwai muk? Which is easier?
As I said, just get rid of hypargyraeus (sic.) and leave kwai muk.
Never quite understood people who want to perpetuate a mistake, presumably until the end of time. But you can't delay forever. Stop making excuses for people, it's not hard to learn a new name, and it is not hard to rename thread titles.

And have you thought about how many future newcomers to the forum might struggle to find information because a redundant and obsolete term has to continue to be used here? TFF should be on the cutting edge, not in sync with Wikipedia. But anyway, I am arguing to just remove the incorrect, not add the provisional new name, i.e. a neutral position.

Then there is the issue of A. hypargyreus actually already existing and being another species. What happens when people want to discuss this species or sell seeds? In fact, just to prove a point I think I might start a thread and cultivate the real hypargyreus as it is a fine tree anyway. Also, the new name for kwai muk is NOT A.nitidus subsp. lingnanensis. That is the CURRENT name. We do not know what the new name will be for sure. What we do know is that it will NOT be a subspecies of nitidus and we know that it NEVER WAS hypargyreus.

skhan mate, not sure what you are waiting for. I can PM you the peer reviewed articles if you need. Or I guess you can continue to trust nursery labels and amateurs on Wikipedia. This confusion has happened because A. hypargyreus is also known as a kwai muk, albeit its full name 白桂木 when translated is White kwai muk. The one in cultivation that everyone grows is Hong (Red) kwai muk. This is the main kwai muk, and so if no color adjective is used, by default the red one is being assumed.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 04:17:53 AM by Mango Stein »
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fruitlovers

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2019, 02:03:06 AM »
Like all other artocarpus, kwai muk have different shaped leaves at different stages of growth, even on the same tree.
Oscar

Mango Stein

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2019, 02:27:15 AM »
Like all other artocarpus, kwai muk have different shaped leaves at different stages of growth, even on the same tree.

Your point is? I am well aware of the intraspecific variation of kwai muk. It's all the same species. But that species is NOT A. hypargyreus (White kwai muk), which has long peduncles, velvety underside of leaves, male flowers very pale and female flowers white and bumpy. Neither you or anyone else is growing it, though I'd love to be proven wrong. If anyone wants to upload their personal photo of a tree in cultivation, go right ahead.

In sum, the two species are only superficially similar, and that is why they have similar common names. But no one has the real A. hypargyreus and if you did you would not think they are all the one species of "kwai muk".
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 04:15:23 AM by Mango Stein »
There's no such thing as "ultra tropical"

Ulfr

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2019, 03:08:48 AM »
Pretty sure fruitlovers was replying to frog valley farm. It explains why a grafted tree would have different leaves (just like seedling vs grafted jacks).

Caesar

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2019, 03:14:16 AM »
I usually look up A. hypargyreus to find info on this Red Kwai Muk, not the common name. Botanical names tend to bring me more relevant info than common names, even when misapplied. I consider myself a stickler for correct nomenclature, but that won't do me good if I can't find information, so when posting here, I usually go the practical route: the correct name (if one has already been given), plus the misapplied names for the search engine to pick up, perhaps with a nomenclatural explanation for good measure.

My recommendation: stick cf in there. Artocarpus cf. hypargyreus. That way, folks like me (and apparently several others) will find this post when using the misapplied term, while making it clear that this is not a member of that species. "Confer with", meaning it frequently gets compared to a known distinct species. As an added bonus, we won't have to worry about the fact that it currently lacks a correct botanical name, having only a provisional one that will be removed soon enough.

If the concern is the lack of information available for the genuine hypargyreus (presumably because the red one keeps stealing its thunder), it's still a useful connection to make, as any dialogue involving the nomenclature of the red one will invite discussion on the white kwai muk as well, as you are doing now. It generates the attention, leading to information sharing even for the lesser known species.

snowjunky

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2019, 03:36:08 AM »
Like all other artocarpus, kwai muk have different shaped leaves at different stages of growth, even on the same tree.

Your point is? I am well aware of the intraspecific variation of kwai muk. It's all the same species. But that species is NOT A. hypargyraeus (White kwai muk), which has long peduncles, velvety underside of leaves, male flowers very pale and female flowers white and bumpy. Neither you or anyone else is growing it, though I'd love to be proven wrong. If anyone wants to upload their personal photo of a tree in cultivation, go right ahead.

In sum, the two species are only superficially similar, and that is why they have similar common names. But no one has the real A. hypargyraeus and if you did you would not think they are all the one species of "kwai muk".

First, please don't be offended by my crude humor.  It wasn't aimed at your expense.
I would say that many people here are just hobbyist not botanist, so the most current and accurate botanical name may not be our highest priority.
Using the most familiar name is probably more useful for most people on this forum. 
That being said, your knowledge and contribution on this subject is very much appreciated.
But since the new latin name has not yet been determined, why make a change now.
When the dust settles, please let us know and we can update the thread with the new name and say formerly know as A. hypargyreus.

Mango Stein

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2019, 03:58:04 AM »
I'm not going to repeat myself too many more times, but there is CURRENTLY a species with the name Artocarpus hypargyreus and THIS AIN'T IT. So by the current and new (future) nomenclature, this thread is incorrectly titled. That is the main issue here.

And I'm not arguing to add a different name, just remove hypargyreus. This thread will more than survive with the name kwai muk. BTW skhan misspelled hypargyreus... that is how unwieldy the name is, so the practical arguments for keeping it I don't think hold water.

Edit: Paper with new taxonomic nomenclature scheduled to be published in Singapore Gardens Bulletin, November 2020.



« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 09:25:20 AM by Mango Stein »
There's no such thing as "ultra tropical"

fruitlovers

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2019, 04:41:34 AM »
Pretty sure fruitlovers was replying to frog valley farm. It explains why a grafted tree would have different leaves (just like seedling vs grafted jacks).
yes
Oscar

Frog Valley Farm

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2019, 06:06:26 AM »
Like all other artocarpus, kwai muk have different shaped leaves at different stages of growth, even on the same tree.

I’ve had one tree for 8 years and one tree for 5 years.  The leaves are definitely different and the general shape have not changed on either tree in all these years. We have small seedlings definitely has evolving leaf form consistent with the ungrafted seed grown tree.  They do look like two different trees.  Hopefully the grafted tree will hold fruit this year.  Last years only fruit dropped at about 1”.  The seedling tree is 8 years and has yet to flower.

Fruitlet from grafted tree 6/7/19
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 07:11:06 AM by Frog Valley Farm »

siafu

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2019, 07:14:27 AM »
Hi,

I have a single tree from seed I got years ago from Island Jim, in Florida.
This tree blooms for long periods of time. It produces male flowers and then female flowers, but with little to no overlap.
As a result, it has set a handful of smallish fruits in all these years.

Is it normal for a single tree to behave like this?

I would like to try to grow this species in a different location. Does anyone know if it is possible
to airlayer kwai muk?  Or, any chance that kwai muk is graft compatible with jakfruit?







Sérgio Duarte
Algarve, Portugal

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skhan

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus sp.) Varieties
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2019, 08:10:45 AM »
Updated the title of the post,
Just let me know when the species name has been decided and approved
Khan's Edible Oasis
Yard as of Jan 2019

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus sp.) Varieties
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2019, 11:04:02 AM »
Unripe fruits with dark red flesh



The usual tree I harvest from with a more "normal" color



Difference in budwood color




-Josh

snowjunky

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus hypargyraeus) Varieties
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2019, 12:58:24 PM »
Never heard of anyone selecting out choice varieties of kwai muk. I have one large tree that produces large fruits that are very tasty. Am willing to send scions to anyone interested. I just planted at a different location a whole row of kwai muk as windbreak. They were from seeds sourced from Florida some years ago from 3 different trees, so hopefully eventually i'll have more to select from and come up with different strains.

Were there other Kwai Muk trees to help pollinate your large fruited tree?  Or did it produce large fruits by self pollinating?
Some sources say cross pollination produces larger and more fruits.

fruitlovers

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus sp.) Varieties
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2019, 04:47:27 PM »
I have an isolated kwai muk tree that produces nice large fruits on its own and gets loaded with fruits.
Oscar

snowjunky

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus sp.) Varieties
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2019, 05:22:22 PM »
I have an isolated kwai muk tree that produces nice large fruits on its own and gets loaded with fruits.

And tasty too! Awesome.  Thank you for offering the scion wood.
Now I just have to find a seedling and see if Kwai Muk can survive in Phoenix.
Anyone here tried to grow Kwai Muk in Arizona or have any info on this?

Caesar

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Re: Kwai Muk (Artocarpus sp.) Varieties
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2020, 01:37:21 PM »
I have an isolated kwai muk tree that produces nice large fruits on its own and gets loaded with fruits.

I'd still like to try the scions as cuttings, if feasible. I haven't grafted yet, so I'm not very confident in my skills. That productive tree sounds like elite material indeed.

 

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