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Author Topic: Japan acid citruses  (Read 1811 times)

Millet

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2019, 10:36:46 PM »
Ilya11, your post about Okinawan citrus is interesting.  I lived on Okinawa for two years, and don't remember seeing a citrus tree of any type.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 10:38:59 PM by Millet »

Bomand

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2019, 02:15:18 AM »
Me too Millet. I did a lot of exploring around the island and can not recall seeing one citrus there. Perhaps my mind was on other things.

Radoslav

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2019, 02:28:51 AM »
Here is document about citruses in chain of Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa is the biggest one).
http://cpi.kagoshima-u.ac.jp/publications/occasionalpapers/occasional/vol-54/OCCASIONAL_PAPERS_54(pp9-15).pdf

Radoslav

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2019, 03:02:58 AM »
Radoslav,

In recent publication on citrus hybrid origin based  on DNA markers it was concluded that:

"Thus, kabuchi was inferred to be an offspring of kunenbo-A as seed parent and an unidentified variety, and
keraji was inferred to be an offspring of kabuchi and kunenbo-A, but their combination was indeterminate.
This inferred parentage suggests that keraji is a backcrossed offspring of kunenbo-A."


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166969


Hello,

I found another paper which  assumes that Keraji can be a cross of Kunenbo and Kikaimikan (Kabuchi). https://ir.kagoshima-u.ac.jp/?action=pages_view_main&active_action=repository_view_main_item_detail&item_id=2762&item_no=1&page_id=13&block_id=21
In another paper  this author states, that only morphologicall difference between Keraji and Kabuchi is smell of the fruit.

Ilya11

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2019, 06:00:22 AM »
Radoslav,
That is exactly what is claimed in DNA paper: Kabuchi is a hybrid between KunenboA and and unknown citrus variety with Keraji being its backcross to Kunenbo (KunenboA X Kabuchi).
For morphological differences- I just sent you by email two original  papers with  descriptions made by T.Tanaka
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Radoslav

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2019, 09:48:00 AM »
Here are my citrus tarogayo seedlings .






Radoslav

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2019, 10:26:45 AM »
Diferences between  citrus oto, citrus keraji var. kabuchi, citrus tarogayo and citrus tarogayo Unju in peel thicknes, shape of fruit and shape of seed.
https://blog.goo.ne.jp/nekogatame/e/18b6a197cc327d09b5088b6d9425bf94

lebmung

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2019, 06:29:00 AM »
Confusion between two mandarin (Citrus spp.) cultivars (Keraji and Kabuchi) that originated on the Amami Archipelago  [2002]

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=JP2003005704

paper is in japanese but you can use google translate.

Ilya11

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2019, 07:21:53 AM »
This paper has a Summary in English

« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 07:24:38 AM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Zitrusgaertner

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2019, 09:48:02 AM »
And we do have the right Keraji? Hope so!

Ilya11

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2019, 10:22:48 AM »
Another Table from this paper

Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2019, 10:24:58 AM »
  I heard that most of Japan' island fall in low temperature zones, but how did they grow many varieties of valuable citrus? There were also very limited information about Japan orchards being attacked by citrus diseases. Did Japanese possess more advanced technology than the US?

  I also noticed that plants grown in California were less being bothered by insects at least compared to GA. Here in GA, if you grow a peach or a plum tree without spraying continuously everyyear, it will be attacked by many diseases and will die after a few years. I have tried squash, cucumbers, and other veggies on frames, but their fruits were attacked horribly by insects even before they ripe. My parents in law in LA, CA has been growing lots of veggies like squashes and cucumbers without spraying any type of chemicals but never got attacked seriously by insects. There were insects in LA but not that bad that we got our crops ruined like it is in GA.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 10:28:05 AM by lavender87 »

Bomand

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2019, 11:10:11 AM »
CA is such a vast state. Nearly as long and as the US. There is as such many different terrains and many micro climes all over. Most of them are mild and it seems that pest do not become a huge burden like they do in a warm, wet and hospitable climate like in the South. Its a great environment for eating and breeding. You do not get a few......you get a slew.😁

SoCal2warm

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2019, 03:37:31 PM »
  I heard that most of Japan' island fall in low temperature zones, but how did they grow many varieties of valuable citrus?
The main part of Japan where most of the population is concentrated is in zone 9b. (That would be equivalent to the northern part of commercial citrus growing territory)
There is also Japan's South, which is basically equivalent to Southern California or zone 10. Many of the native citrus varieties seem to have historically started there, and that is where most of the citrus diversity is.

Citrus trees are not very often seen much farther north than Tokyo.

Also the type of varieties traditionally grown in Japan appear to be generally just a little bit hardier than ordinary oranges. Buntan (pomelos) in Japan are usually only grown in the South.

Many of the mandarins can easily survive a light frost.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2019, 03:47:47 PM »
  I also noticed that plants grown in California were less being bothered by insects at least compared to GA. Here in GA, if you grow a peach or a plum tree without spraying continuously everyyear, it will be attacked by many diseases and will die after a few years.
Yes, lower humidity. The summers in California, especially further away from the coast, are quite dry.

That's one of the reasons so much produce is commercially grown in the state. It's not exactly a lush green place where plants thrive, but the lack of rain during the summer half of the year and low humidity makes disease and pests much less of a problem than it is in other regions.
There are a few downsides to growing in that climate though, the plants can get more heat stressed, and will often do better with a little bit of shade, and it takes a lot of irrigation to make sure the plants get enough water. That has led to some problematic issues for growers in the state.


Japan's climate can get rather hot and humid during the late summer, but not as hot as Florida, and for much of the rest of the year Japan will have generally cooler more comfortable temperatures than the US Southeast.

It's not as much humidity that causes disease and pest issues, but heat combined with humidity.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 03:56:11 PM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2019, 05:40:03 PM »
This paper has a Summary in English

Kikaijima is in zone 11b where keraji is found.

I wonder how far north it is found in Japan.

lavender87

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2019, 06:33:21 PM »
Thanks Socal2warm

SoCal2warm

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2019, 12:23:27 AM »
Kikaijima is in zone 11b where keraji is found.

I wonder how far north it is found in Japan.
I'm not an expert, but from what I have been able to gather, the diversity of indigenous citrus types is much more limited outside the South of Japan, which was the traditional citrus growing area. So I would think Keraji would be very unlikely to be found outside of the Kikaijima, maybe Kagoshima area, possibly Kyushu or Shikoku. Satsuma and newer seedless mikan varieties have mostly supplanted the older varieties now.

If you started talking about Keraji, most Japanese people, even most Japanese citrus growers, would have no idea what you were talking about. Level of cold hardiness is less important now that citrus fruit can easily be transported over long distances.
As has happened in other parts of the world, Japan is poised to lose a lot of its diversity of traditional plant cultivars.

Also, from what information I've been able to gather about people's growing experiences in the U.S. Southeast, Keraji can survive 8a, but probably does better in zone 8b.
Keraji has more cold hardiness than Satsuma, but less cold hardiness than Yuzu. It seems to be able to survive about 12 °F in the Southeast, but in the Pacific Northwest, zone 8a, I had two medium sized Keraji seedlings both covered, one in a shady spot died and the other one in a sunnier spot almost completely died to the ground, but then later started growing back in June. It was maybe 5 or 6 inches tall when planted, now after suffering through a cold winter, dying almost to the ground, and going through an entire growing season, it is now only 1 inch tall (but it is a full 1 inch and is full of healthy looking leaves). That might help give you some idea of its level of hardiness, or the limit of what it can survive.

Kikaijima is the northernmost of the Ryukyu Islands, to the South of mainland Japan. It wouldn't be surprising if the citrus originally was brought there from Taiwan. (Probably would have been around 600 to 1200 years ago. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some subspecies of Tachibana or Shikuwasa having been indigenous to this island)

Citrus varieties typically can tolerate a fair degree more cold than their native range in the wild. Which makes sense because they have to be adapted to be able to survive the unusually colder winters that come along only once every 40 years. Even Guangzhou, China, far south as it is, got a little snow in January 2016, the first time on record in 88 years.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 12:48:19 AM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2019, 01:17:23 AM »
I also found an interesting mention to another rare traditional Japanese variety, named Hanaharu. ( 花良治みかん )

"The biggest feature is the unique refined fragrance not found in other citrus fruits. The scent is very strong, and when you begin to peel it, a good scent spreads throughout the area. There are basically no seeds, an exquisite balance of sweet and sour taste, a delicious taste even when it is blue, and an exceptional quality that is unparalleled.
A study by Kagoshima University that Hanaharu oranges may have originated from Kunenbo as a seed parent and Kikai oranges as a pollen parent"

https://www.kerajiya.com/shopdetail/018000000001/


I found another reference here that there is a production area for Keraji in Higashiizu. (Looking on a map, this appears to be considerably farther north, only a little south from Tokyo)
The article alluded to the fact that this variety was very hard to find.

"The other day, I participated in the Marche held in the basement of Yukiyuki Street in front of Tokyo Station. During this period, various citrus fruits are lined up in the Marche, from light lemon-colored Fudan to red blood orange. Every time the shop peels off the preparations for the tasting, a refreshing fragrance spreads and heals the fatigue of work.
There was an unusual thing to see for the first time among such citrus fruits.
Its name is “Keraji”. It seems to be a phantom, and the production area is Higashiizu. Originally it is native to the Keraji district of Kikaijima. Thank you for taking one of the tasting "I want to eat it", thank you and peel it off, and you will have a superb fragrance that you have never felt before. It is said that "It looks like bergamot?" The taste is a refreshing tangerine. If you rub the skin like an eggplant and cook it, it will be delicious. Phantom Keraji oranges, please feel the scent once you see it."

https://www.orange-garden-inc.jp/sommelier/mikan-introduction/


"Hanaraji Village is a small village located in the southwestern part of Kikaijima.

Sightseeing
The highlights of Keraji village
Haraharu oranges
The settlement of Hanaraji is also known as the birthplace of phantom mandarin oranges and mandarin oranges, and the season is from September to December. The mandarin orange is characterized by its unique and elegant fragrance, and its functionality is perfect, but it is also useful in local Kikaijima as a phantom mandarin orange that is small in volume and difficult to grow. It is not unusual for the island to be difficult to obtain, and it is traded at a very high price due to its uniqueness and rarity. "

http://kerajihouse.moon.bindcloud.jp/pg344776.html

花良治集落 automatically translates as "Hanaraji village" but interestingly the Google translate also automatically seemed to recognize the "Hanaraji" component as "Keraji", and the name Keraji also appears in English form on that site. I don't know, but I suspect this could mean that "Hanaraji" actually should be "Keraji" in this context. The characters might refer to an older name, rather than the standard Japanese one for these characters.
Or maybe it could just be that Hanaraji is a more specific place within Keraji village?

"If you walk in the village, you will find a stone wall of a fence and an old narrow street. In the garden of a private house, you can see tropical plants and native citrus fruits (Kerajimikan ケラジミカン, Kuriha クリハー ( Kikikai Mikan 喜界島みかん ) , etc.) unique to the village of Hanara "

These are the same characters that refer to Kikkai mikan, so there's no doubt that "Kikikai" is just a different spelling for "Kikkai" here. Kikkai mikan was identified as one of the parents of Keraji mikan in another DNA marker analysis, which we are not going to elaborate on here.


This may be another source of interest, relevant to Japanese varieties in this specific area:
http://www.japanfruit.jp/Portals/0/images/fruit/endemic/pdf/mandarin1.pdf

English translation here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.japanfruit.jp/Portals/0/images/fruit/endemic/pdf/mandarin1.pdf&prev=search

Edit: I found out why google translate may have recognized Hanaraji as Keraji.
This source seems to indicate that Hanaharu mandarin (or Hanaryoji, as would be rendered by the translator) seems to be somewhat synonymous with Keraji mandarin, and Hanaharu uses the same exact first three characters in Hanaraji village.

" ケラジ ( 花良治 ) "
https://www.flower-db.com/ja/flower:687

There's obviously a connection here, but I'm not sure I'm able to untangle it for sure.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 02:54:45 AM by SoCal2warm »

Ilya11

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2019, 03:18:15 AM »

Kikaijima is in zone 11b where keraji is found.

I wonder how far north it is found in Japan.
Keraji is very resistant, in my garden it has not dropped a single leaf in two winters with -9C nights and snow.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Oolie

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2019, 04:49:53 AM »
Does this resemble the Hanaharu?

In the first link you posted about 'hanaharu' the writing on the box says keraji.
The pronunciation of kanji depend on the context in which it is being used.
 
I am curious if the mikan you are referring to as hanaharu is not keraji.
I am interested in the unique scent and excellent sweet-acid balance at full blue (green)(Ao) stage that you describe.

I'm pretty sure it's Keraji, not Hanaharu.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 05:09:12 AM by Oolie »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2019, 06:39:25 PM »
In the first link you posted about 'hanaharu' the writing on the box says keraji.
The pronunciation of kanji depend on the context in which it is being used.
I think they consider it to be a type of keraji. Some of the Japanese naming can be kind of ambiguous. They use names to refer to things much more loosely than a precise name that defines just one thing explicitly. So it would be an error to get caught up in semantics and take some of these names too literally. To say it more bluntly, just because they consider it to be keraji doesn't mean it is. Maybe it would be more apt to say it's more like it's in the "keraji family".

Since the parents of Hanaharu are Keraji and Kunenbo, and the parents of Keraji are Kikai mikan and Kunenbo, it's not at all surprising that Hanaharu would strongly resemble Keraji.
In fact, I think it's a fair guess that Hanaharu problably greatly resembles Kunenbo, albeit without the seeds, although I really can't say because I've never tasted either of them.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 07:08:57 PM by SoCal2warm »

lebmung

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2019, 06:53:37 PM »
"If you walk in the village, you will find a stone wall of a fence and an old narrow street. In the garden of a private house, you can see tropical plants and native citrus fruits (Kerajimikan ケラジミカン, Kuriha クリハー ( Kikikai Mikan 喜界島みかん ) , etc.) unique to the village of Hanara "

Can anyone identify the tree?  ;D

https://goo.gl/maps/ouvvKT9ewm1ESWC18

lebmung

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2019, 07:12:46 PM »

Keraji is very resistant, in my garden it has not dropped a single leaf in two winters with -9C nights and snow.
[/quote]

Ilya can you put some pictures with your tree? Also with leaves

Oolie

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Re: Japan acid citruses
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2019, 07:38:43 PM »
In the first link you posted about 'hanaharu' the writing on the box says keraji.
The pronunciation of kanji depend on the context in which it is being used.
I think they consider it to be a type of keraji. Some of the Japanese naming can be kind of ambiguous. They use names to refer to things much more loosely than a precise name that defines just one thing explicitly. So it would be an error to get caught up in semantics and take some of these names too literally. To say it more bluntly, just because they consider it to be keraji doesn't mean it is. Maybe it would be more apt to say it's more like it's in the "keraji family".

Since the parents of Hanaharu are Keraji and Kunenbo, and the parents of Keraji are Kikai mikan and Kunenbo, it's not at all surprising that Hanaharu would strongly resemble Keraji.
In fact, I think it's a fair guess that Hanaharu problably greatly resembles Kunenbo, albeit without the seeds, although I really can't say because I've never tasted either of them.

Well you have garnered my interest in hanaharu. Do you have any links to sites containting info on hanaharu?

 

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