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Author Topic: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?  (Read 438 times)

lavender87

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Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« on: June 02, 2019, 07:23:54 PM »
   I just wonder how a lemon tree survived a low temperature of 16 F without any damage? I don't see any trait of trifoliate orange or Ichangensis papeda characteristics in it. People claimed that it was the only survival after a disastrous winter in 1960-1970 in FL.

   Anyone confirm this for me please, is this a myth?

   Especially, the winter temperature of FL is usually very mild, so it means that a sudden sharp change in temperature would easily kill citrus trees there.

   
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 07:26:21 PM by lavender87 »

Bomand

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 07:52:14 PM »
As far as lemons I can see a 16 degree survival...if the rootstock is poncirus....if environment was right and we are not speaking of sustained 16 degrees
 M Lemon on poncirus is probably as cold hardy as lemon gets....and it usually does not do well at 16 degrees suztained without cold protection. It will survive but I feel that is a ways from (cold hardy).

SoCal2warm

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 10:22:34 PM »
In the Olympia-Tacoma-Seattle area in WA state there are many anecdotal reports about Meyer lemon trees in containers up against a house being able to survive some Winters.
A typical Winter will get down to about 15F for just two nights, and it might be one or two degrees warmer in a specific area or near a house, so interrpret that however you will.
Protection from wind might be a factor as well.

lavender87

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 10:24:58 PM »
It seems like no body have heard of Harvey Lemon. There were also very limited info about this variety. Some one claimed that it is far more cold hardy than meyer lemon, but why and how??? Did the normal lemon tree mutate its own gene by chance to tolerate colder climate? It is deffinitely not a trifoliate hybrid nor Ichangensis papeda hybrid. If the fact that this lemon mutated it self to tolerate the colder climate then it is promising that it will mutate itself again in its next and next generation by chance to improve its cold hardiness.

lavender87

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 10:31:16 PM »
In the Olympia-Tacoma-Seattle area in WA state there are many anecdotal reports about Meyer lemon trees in containers up against a house being able to survive some Winters.
A typical Winter will get down to about 15F for just two nights, and it might be one or two degrees warmer in a specific area or near a house, so interrpret that however you will.
Protection from wind might be a factor as well.

  That makes some sense to me, but I just wonder even if this Harvey Lemon is as cold tolerant as a meyer lemon tree, it is still a great mystery for a normal lemon to make it that far. This harvey lemon was described as seedless as well beside its super cold tolerance. I would choose harvey lemon over meyer lemon for its closer characteristic to original lemon and less seeds than meyer lemon. I don't find meyer lemon useful beside candying.

  I will buy one tree for experiment and will report the result after the next winter.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 10:33:09 PM by lavender87 »

Ilya11

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2019, 03:59:13 AM »
In Europe we have a lemon variety that is present in Czech collections and distributed previously under Yuko name.
I suspect that it is some sort of lemon hybrid either with Yuko or ichangensis.
A small plant grafted on FD roots survived in my garden a very harsh winter with strong winds, night temperature up to -9.6C and frozen ground. Some twig damage was there, but a plant recovered perfectly. Same winter I had some stem damage at Yuzu tree.
It is not a strong grower,but fruits are small but have a taste and a smell of regular lemons.
They are ripe by November.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

lavender87

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 07:45:04 AM »
In Europe we have a lemon variety that is present in Czech collections and distributed previously under Yuko name.
I suspect that it is some sort of lemon hybrid either with Yuko or ichangensis.
A small plant grafted on FD roots survived in my garden a very harsh winter with strong winds, night temperature up to -9.6C and frozen ground. Some twig damage was there, but a plant recovered perfectly. Same winter I had some stem damage at Yuzu tree.
It is not a strong grower,but fruits are small but have a taste and a smell of regular lemons.
They are ripe by November.

  Cool, thank you so much for the very useful info. By the way, May I ask about the tase of Ichangensis IVIA fruits amd leaves. How close are they to oringinal lemon?

  I only care about their leaves because lemon and lime are so cheap in store and available all year round.

 Best regard,
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 08:59:26 AM by lavender87 »

Laaz

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 07:51:18 AM »
I have never grown one, but Harvey may not be a true lemon. It very well could be a hybrid with something much more cold hardy. I'll have to see if Stan has any next time I drive up there.

SoCal2warm

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 09:39:31 AM »
It seems like no body have heard of Harvey Lemon. There were also very limited info about this variety. Some one claimed that it is far more cold hardy than meyer lemon, but why and how??? Did the normal lemon tree mutate its own gene by chance to tolerate colder climate?
Harvey lemons look a little like Meyer lemons to me. They might have something else in their ancestry.

It is deffinitely not a trifoliate hybrid nor Ichangensis papeda hybrid.
I could throw out guesses, but it would just be uninformed speculation.
(white grapefruit, maybe one of the parents were Meyer lemon? maybe a hardy sour orange cross with citron? maybe the parent lemon had recessive hardy genes that did not get to express themselves until the F2 generation?)

I highly doubt it is anything so exotic as having trifoliate or ichangensis in its ancestry.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 09:48:20 AM by SoCal2warm »

SoCal2warm

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 09:54:37 AM »
In Europe we have a lemon variety that is present in Czech collections and distributed previously under Yuko name.
I suspect that it is some sort of lemon hybrid either with Yuko or ichangensis.
A small plant grafted on FD roots survived in my garden a very harsh winter with strong winds, night temperature up to -9.6C and frozen ground. Some twig damage was there, but a plant recovered perfectly. Same winter I had some stem damage at Yuzu tree.
That's very interesting. Do you still have the tree?

Do you think it could be related to Japanese Yukou?

Bomand

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2019, 10:22:30 AM »
Here is what I did. Several years ago I planted two M lemons on the N side of my home. In the bald a-- open with no windbreak of any sort. They are ever blooming/bearing as M lemons do. I threw a blanket haphazardly over them when they were young on freezing nights. They are grown trees now and I do nothing except fertilize and keep the bugs at bay. They suffer a little leaf damage on very cold nights (16/18 degrees) but they come back strong and bear a sustained crop of lemons. I have learned to plant cuttings of M lemon & grow tbem on their own roots. The roots are survivors...regardless of cold. Never grafted M lemon in the last. 8 or 7 years. This might work for others up N of me. Just what I do.

Ilya11

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2019, 10:28:21 AM »
Yes, this  "fake" Yuko is still with me, it has a weak, spreading growth, no flowers this year.


Fruits in November 2017:

Nobody actually knows what it is, but originally it was brought under the name Yuko from the former USSR.
Several interesting  hardy hybrids were produced over there by crossing and backcrossing of lemons with Yuko and Ichangensis.
I believe most of them are lost now.
Best regards,
                       Ilya

Pancrazio

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2019, 04:01:43 PM »
Hey ilya do you know where this lemon is sold in europe? I'm searching for a lemon lookalike to plant in the garden since my place is too cold for true lemons but id' like a lemon lookalike for decoration and fruits.

I believe most of them are lost now.

That's really sad. Both for the loss in itself, and for the effort people put in that pursuit now gone to waste.
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Ilya11

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2019, 05:45:24 PM »
Hey ilya do you know where this lemon is sold in europe?

I got this plant several years ago from Zdeněk Černoch,  it was also sold by Adavo.
But because of  "false Yuko" name it was removed from there catalogue.
http://www.rakytnik.com/index.php/galerie/citrusy/mrazuvzdorne-druhy-a-hybridy/citrus-juko-neprave
May be Zdenek still have it, but I am not sure that he is still in business.
http://exoticfruitplants.eu/ 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 05:52:27 PM by Ilya11 »
Best regards,
                       Ilya

SoCal2warm

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2019, 05:53:30 PM »
Fruits in November 2017:
Thank you for posting pictures of the "false Yuko".

It definitely looks like it has ichangensis in it, perhaps citron also (those ends are pretty pointy, but ichangensis can also have that to a lesser extent).

eyeckr

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2019, 10:29:50 PM »
Here is my Harvey lemon. It was a lot bigger but I Ieft it out in its pot to test how much cold it would take totally unprotected. It saw 23 then 22 degrees a couple nights in a row in its pot, died back nearly to its roots but is coming back strong.  It probably would've taken the cold better if grafted and planted in the ground. Im assuming it may be just as hardy as Meyer lemon or a couple degrees more hardy.


lavender87

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2019, 11:10:47 PM »
Here is my Harvey lemon. It was a lot bigger but I Ieft it out in its pot to test how much cold it would take totally unprotected. It saw 23 then 22 degrees a couple nights in a row in its pot, died back nearly to its roots but is coming back strong.  It probably would've taken the cold better if grafted and planted in the ground. Im assuming it may be just as hardy as Meyer lemon or a couple degrees more hardy.


  Thank eyeckr for your report.

  Best regard,

Laaz

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2019, 06:58:47 AM »
Thanks G. It's a rooted cutting I take it.

eyeckr

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2019, 11:54:09 AM »
Yes, I forgot to mention my tree is a rooted cutting.

lavender87

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2019, 12:28:33 PM »
Yes, I forgot to mention my tree is a rooted cutting.

Oh no wonder that might be the reason why it could not withstand temperature as low as it should be. You might be right, if it was grown from seed or was grafted on trifoliate rootstock, it would have been hardier.

Pancrazio

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 03:25:26 PM »
Hey ilya do you know where this lemon is sold in europe?

I got this plant several years ago from Zdeněk Černoch,  it was also sold by Adavo.
But because of  "false Yuko" name it was removed from there catalogue.
http://www.rakytnik.com/index.php/galerie/citrusy/mrazuvzdorne-druhy-a-hybridy/citrus-juko-neprave
May be Zdenek still have it, but I am not sure that he is still in business.
http://exoticfruitplants.eu/


Too bad this could have been really interesting. Adavo should restock in a couple of months maybe i can find it there?
Zdenek surely hasn't it on his catalog of available plants now; hopefully it is still in business, since i sent him 60 last monday to get some plants!  ;D
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Florian

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2019, 02:26:48 AM »
Hey ilya do you know where this lemon is sold in europe?

I got this plant several years ago from Zdeněk Černoch,  it was also sold by Adavo.
But because of  "false Yuko" name it was removed from there catalogue.
http://www.rakytnik.com/index.php/galerie/citrusy/mrazuvzdorne-druhy-a-hybridy/citrus-juko-neprave
May be Zdenek still have it, but I am not sure that he is still in business.
http://exoticfruitplants.eu/


Too bad this could have been really interesting. Adavo should restock in a couple of months maybe i can find it there?
Zdenek surely hasn't it on his catalog of available plants now; hopefully it is still in business, since i sent him 60 last monday to get some plants!  ;D


Eisenhut also have it. It is their number 192.

Pancrazio

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2019, 07:43:12 PM »
Oh, i see. I was wondering if they can ship inside EU? That's the reason why i didn't look for eisenhut.
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Florian

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2019, 03:36:31 PM »
I believe they do but just ask them, they speak Italian. Or you could visit the garden if you are ever in the area which is always worth a visit.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 04:55:21 PM by Florian »

Pancrazio

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Re: Harvey lemon, cold hardiness down to 16F, is it a myth?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2019, 03:44:08 PM »
I will try to send them a mail then, and i'll see what they are going to amnswer. Thank you!
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